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Mironiel
The Shire
Jan 25 2016, 4:28pm
Post #1 of 21
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When I read LOTR, I always felt that old Tom was rather out of place and didn't fit with the story. Does anyone know why Tolkien put him in?
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 25 2016, 5:00pm
Post #2 of 21
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It's one of the top Tolkien mysteries.
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I agree - it's almost as if he wandered in from some other story. I think the nearest to "why" we have is:
Tom Bombadill is not an important person - to the narrative. ...I would not, however, have left him in if he did not have some kind of function. I might put it this way. The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long lost any object except power, and so on; but both sides want a measure of control, but if you have, as it were taken a ‘vow of poverty’ renounced control, and take your delight in things themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless.It is a natural pacifist view, which always arises in the mind when there is a war. But the view of Rivendell seems to be that it is an excellent thing to have represented, but there are in fact things with which it cannot cope; and upon which its existence nonetheless depends. Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive. Nothing would be left to him in the world of Sauron. Tolkien Letters #144 (to Naomi Mitchison (who was proof-reading LOTR, and had evidently raised a number of very intelligent questions) personally I think it's quite possible that Tolkien didn't know why Tom was needed (this has happened to me in things I have written). perhaps Tolkien knew just that Tom seemed to fit and shouldn't be removed now he had appeared . As regards WHO or WHAT Tom is as opposed to Why he is in the story- well that is another part of the mystery! this link covers the most popular theories http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/t/tombombadil.html If you missed the recent read-though of this part of the book, here's a link you might enjoy.http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=831569#831569
~~~~~~ The Reading Room read-through of The Two Towers Book IV has started! All chapters now taken - but we'll be planning Book V soon! week starts # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread 03-Jan-16 # I # The Taming of Smeagol # noWizardme Part 1: http://goo.gl/wvyAOx 2: http://goo.gl/6ks0JV 3: http://goo.gl/l0iuEz 4: http://goo.gl/7ket5o 10-Jan-16 # II # The Passage of the Marshes # Oliphaunt Part 1: http://goo.gl/eUEV4u, 2:http://goo.gl/5osCOm 3: http://goo.gl/F9p2Pe 17-Jan-16 # III # The Black Gate Is Closed # Al Carondas http://goo.gl/FXwf5j 24-Jan-16 # IV # Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit # Hamfast Gamgee 31-Jan-16 # V # The Window on the West # MirielCelebel 07-Feb-16 # VI # The Forbidden Pool # Hamfast Gamgee 14-Feb-16 # VII # Journey to the Cross-roads # Mironiel 21-Feb-16 # VIII # The Stairs of Cirith Ungol # squire 28-Feb-16 # IX # Shelob's Lair # enanito 06-Mar-16 # X # The Choices of Master Samwise # Surprise Chapter Leader "End G.I. Bran" (Easter 2016 is March 27) A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383 A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jan 25 2016, 6:54pm
Post #3 of 21
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Tom says "Eldest, that's what I am.’' And with any work of art who is the Eldest? The artist. So when Bombadil says “Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless?” it’s Tolkien saying hello to the anonymous reader curled up alone with his book. That's my take.
****************************************** Fimbrethil, Warrior Entwife Sez: "Why don't we terraform Earth? It's closer."
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Mironiel
The Shire
Jan 25 2016, 7:49pm
Post #4 of 21
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Yeah. Maybe Tolkien needed someone or something to save and look after the hobbits, and so he came up with Tom. Also, did Tolkien write that book 'The Adventures of Tom Bombadil' before or after he wrote LOTR? I read it and well...it didn't seem like the world that Tom was in was Middle-earth.
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Mironiel
The Shire
Jan 25 2016, 7:50pm
Post #5 of 21
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I never thought of that! That's a really cool idea.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 25 2016, 8:16pm
Post #6 of 21
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I know that Tom made it into at least one adaptation of The Lord of the Rings: the Mind's Eye audio drama that was broadcast in the U.S. on NPR. The wooden box version of the collection contains 9 CDs (if I remember right, the previous version on cassette consisted of 12 tapes). When I upgraded to CD, I donated my tape set to our local public library.
"Things need not to have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot." - Dream of the Endless
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Jan 25 2016, 10:43pm
Post #7 of 21
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- are Forn, and Orald. Mix 'em uo and you get 'For Ronald'. Q.E.D.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 25 2016, 11:11pm
Post #8 of 21
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And of course Tom Bombadill is an anagram of "Mad Blob I Molt"
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Which doesn't help at all -except I thought it was funny.
~~~~~~ The Reading Room read-through of The Two Towers Book IV has started! All chapters now taken - but we'll be planning Book V soon! week starts # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread 03-Jan-16 # I # The Taming of Smeagol # noWizardme Part 1: http://goo.gl/wvyAOx 2: http://goo.gl/6ks0JV 3: http://goo.gl/l0iuEz 4: http://goo.gl/7ket5o 10-Jan-16 # II # The Passage of the Marshes # Oliphaunt Part 1: http://goo.gl/eUEV4u, 2:http://goo.gl/5osCOm 3: http://goo.gl/F9p2Pe 17-Jan-16 # III # The Black Gate Is Closed # Al Carondas http://goo.gl/FXwf5j 24-Jan-16 # IV # Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit # Hamfast Gamgee 31-Jan-16 # V # The Window on the West # MirielCelebel 07-Feb-16 # VI # The Forbidden Pool # Hamfast Gamgee 14-Feb-16 # VII # Journey to the Cross-roads # Mironiel 21-Feb-16 # VIII # The Stairs of Cirith Ungol # squire 28-Feb-16 # IX # Shelob's Lair # enanito 06-Mar-16 # X # The Choices of Master Samwise # Surprise Chapter Leader "End G.I. Bran" (Easter 2016 is March 27) A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383 A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Mironiel
The Shire
Jan 26 2016, 12:05am
Post #9 of 21
(1261 views)
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I need to find that audio book set NOW.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 26 2016, 9:14am
Post #11 of 21
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a helpful website http://wordsmith.org/...l&t=1000&a=n quickly finds 795 (correctly spelled) anagrams to choose from - I won't inflict any more on you Oh - and I've just realised that by posting silly anagrams I might look like I'm mocking Darkstone & Geordie's theory. I didn't mean to do that and apologise if I appeared to - I just like silly anagrams, even when I can't spell them right late at night. I like the idea that JRR might be giving himself a sly cameo, but must say I'm not really convinced. I think that Bombadil isn't supposed to be a puzzle that has a specific answer. I've come to enjoy that idea. But that's just my theory, no more provable or otherwise than any other.
~~~~~~ The Reading Room read-through of The Two Towers Book IV has started! All chapters now taken - but we'll be planning Book V soon! week starts # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread 03-Jan-16 # I # The Taming of Smeagol # noWizardme Part 1: http://goo.gl/wvyAOx 2: http://goo.gl/6ks0JV 3: http://goo.gl/l0iuEz 4: http://goo.gl/7ket5o 10-Jan-16 # II # The Passage of the Marshes # Oliphaunt Part 1: http://goo.gl/eUEV4u, 2:http://goo.gl/5osCOm 3: http://goo.gl/F9p2Pe 17-Jan-16 # III # The Black Gate Is Closed # Al Carondas http://goo.gl/FXwf5j 24-Jan-16 # IV # Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit # Hamfast Gamgee 31-Jan-16 # V # The Window on the West # MirielCelebel 07-Feb-16 # VI # The Forbidden Pool # Hamfast Gamgee 14-Feb-16 # VII # Journey to the Cross-roads # Mironiel 21-Feb-16 # VIII # The Stairs of Cirith Ungol # squire 28-Feb-16 # IX # Shelob's Lair # enanito 06-Mar-16 # X # The Choices of Master Samwise # Surprise Chapter Leader "End G.I. Bran" (Easter 2016 is March 27) A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383 A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jan 26 2016, 9:27am)
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sevilodorf
Tol Eressea
Jan 27 2016, 6:01am
Post #12 of 21
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Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua (Found in Mathoms, LOTR Tales Untold)
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Khim
Bree
Jan 28 2016, 1:54am
Post #13 of 21
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Sadly, I seldom visit the reading room, although I always find it a haven for intelligent and courteous discourse. Mironiel, I was drawn to your inquiry because it is quite simply among the most complex conundrums in Tolkien's LOTR. There really is no answer, but many have provided tantalizing insights, including JRR himself. Pay close attention to noWizardme, he is among the wise. I have read much concerning this enigmatic character over the years. (I even have the old radio shows in wooden boxes :) ) I don't necessarily agree with this commentator, but he argues well: http://whoistombombadil.blogspot.com There are other equally compelling answers to be found in old post on this site, and elsewhere. I won't try to answer your questions, but I will share something with you. I first read about Tom almost 40 years ago, when I was twelve years old. I have always loved him. I found Middle-earth wonderful and strange, and Tom always seemed to fit in for me. In my opinion Tom is a problem for those who wish to get to the end of the story, and want everything clearly explained. I guess from the beginning I liked the mystery and magic. Tom was ancient and magical, just like Middle-earth. Sure I wanted to find out what happened next, but I always hated leaving Tom and Goldberry. You know, it's about time I visited them again.
I am Khim akin to Mim.
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dreamflower
Lorien
Jan 30 2016, 2:52pm
Post #14 of 21
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Short answer: Tom Bombadil was the name of one of his sons' toys. But of course there's more to it than that. I think others have addressed that very well. Many people think old Tom is out of place narratively. But this isn't so. The Bombadil chapters serve a real purpose in the story as a transition between the lighter Shire chapters and the gradually darkening chapters ahead. They show how unprepared the hobbits are for the journey they face, and bring them into and out of their first mortal peril. Plotwise they serve a number of purposes. Foreshadowing is scattered throughout their time with Tom, hints about the world ahead, now that home is behind. And the barrow incident is very important, as we see Frodo prove his courage for the first time, we learn just a little about fallen kingdoms, get our first glimpse of The future king, and most importantly the hobbits receive the small swords that will be vitally important in later chapters. Tom's an odd character, a blend of zany and serious, and not one that is easily absorbed in a first reading. But a few years after I first encountered Tom, I was introduced to a different character in another medium who also combined zaniness with power and wisdom: the Doctor. When I saw it Four reminded me of Tom Bombadil. Hmmm...now there's a theory I've never seen about Tom before. Could he have been another hidden incarnation of our favorite Gallifreyan?
Some people call it fanfiction. I call it story-internal literary criticism.
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Mironiel
The Shire
Jan 30 2016, 3:32pm
Post #15 of 21
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I did like old Tom, but to me, he did seem out of place :D but that's just my opinion. He was never mentioned in The Silmarillion, as far as I can remember, and I think that for me, that was part of the problem. He is said to be 'eldest' but there was no mention of a man who came before the elves. Instead he's completely absent from The Silmarillion.
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Mironiel
The Shire
Jan 30 2016, 3:36pm
Post #16 of 21
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Tolkien's kids had a toy named Tom Bombadil?!
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Tolkien's kids had a toy named Tom Bombadil?! Well that's something I didn't know XD I do agree, though, Tom is important. I am confused by his character though. No mention in the Silmarillion, even though he's 'eldest', he seems to be a man, but he is immortal(elf maybe?!).
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dreamflower
Lorien
Jan 30 2016, 8:20pm
Post #18 of 21
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Yes, they did. JRRT often included things just because his kids liked them. He was that kind of dad. Not every character is mentioned in every part of the Legendarium. Most of the Silm took place in the West, or involved the conflict between Elves, Men of the West and Melkor/Morgoth. Tom was not involved in any of that, probably thought it was all pretty silly. It's clear Tom is sort of a hermit. He keeps to himself in much the same way as Radagast or Beorn or Fangorn do. In fact, even more so, only rarely interacting with his neighbors in Buckland or the Marish, or with travelers who venture through his own little realm. So why have a mention of him at all when he does not appear. We see him when he's needed and not otherwise. I have a feeling he was probably around, but neutral and uninterested during all that conflict over shiny jewels that had no meaning for him.
Some people call it fanfiction. I call it story-internal literary criticism.
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dreamflower
Lorien
Jan 30 2016, 8:23pm
Post #19 of 21
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To see a fanfic based on that premise. I've always thought that the Doctor's personality was kind of like old Tom Bombadil--zany, but really powerful and wise underneath the silliness.
Some people call it fanfiction. I call it story-internal literary criticism.
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dreamflower
Lorien
Jan 30 2016, 8:32pm
Post #20 of 21
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The poems were collected and published in 1962, but he had written them over the decades previous--so some of them had been written before, during and after he was writing LotR.
Some people call it fanfiction. I call it story-internal literary criticism.
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Khim
Bree
Feb 2 2016, 6:24am
Post #21 of 21
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Tolkien was obsessed with tantalizing fragments of lost tales. Much of the mythology he loved only survives in tiny pieces, just a name, or an unusual phrase in an ancient tongue. It becomes clear when one finishes the many volumes of the History of Middle-earth prepared by Christopher Tolkien, that his father's invented mythology survives in fragments much like the actual mythology that was his inspiration. The Silmarillion is a collection of story fragments, not a complete whole. Whether viewed aesthetically as part of Tolkien's fictional universe, or as a faux artifact of an historical Middle-earth, that Tom doesn't appear in the narrative does not imply he wasn't there. As has been suggested by others, he may have been ignored because he wasn't concerned with the Silmarils, or his part in the lore of that time may have simply been lost. Too bad we don't have more ancient tales, and more stories of Middle-earth, especially tales about Tom.
I am Khim akin to Mim.
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