Our Sponsor Sideshow Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Tom Bombadil

Mironiel
The Shire


Jan 25 2016, 4:28pm

Post #1 of 21 (1345 views)
Shortcut
Tom Bombadil Can't Post

When I read LOTR, I always felt that old Tom was rather out of place and didn't fit with the story. Does anyone know why Tolkien put him in?


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jan 25 2016, 5:00pm

Post #2 of 21 (1302 views)
Shortcut
It's one of the top Tolkien mysteries. [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree - it's almost as if he wandered in from some other story. I think the nearest to "why" we have is:


Quote
Tom Bombadill is not an important person - to the narrative.

...I would not, however, have left him in if he did not have some kind of function. I might put it this way. The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long lost any object except power, and so on; but both sides want a measure of control, but if you have, as it were taken a ‘vow of poverty’ renounced control, and take your delight in things themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless.It is a natural pacifist view, which always arises in the mind when there is a war. But the view of Rivendell seems to be that it is an excellent thing to have represented, but there are in fact things with which it cannot cope; and upon which its existence nonetheless depends. Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive. Nothing would be left to him in the world of Sauron.

Tolkien Letters #144 (to Naomi Mitchison (who was proof-reading LOTR, and had evidently raised a number of very intelligent questions)

personally I think it's quite possible that Tolkien didn't know why Tom was needed (this has happened to me in things I have written). perhaps Tolkien knew just that Tom seemed to fit and shouldn't be removed now he had appeared .

As regards WHO or WHAT Tom is as opposed to Why he is in the story- well that is another part of the mystery! this link covers the most popular theories http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/t/tombombadil.html


If you missed the recent read-though of this part of the book, here's a link you might enjoy.http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=831569#831569

~~~~~~
The Reading Room read-through of The Two Towers Book IV has started! All chapters now taken - but we'll be planning Book V soon!

week starts # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
03-Jan-16 # I # The Taming of Smeagol # noWizardme Part 1: http://goo.gl/wvyAOx 2: http://goo.gl/6ks0JV 3: http://goo.gl/l0iuEz 4: http://goo.gl/7ket5o
10-Jan-16 # II # The Passage of the Marshes # Oliphaunt Part 1: http://goo.gl/eUEV4u, 2:http://goo.gl/5osCOm 3: http://goo.gl/F9p2Pe
17-Jan-16 # III # The Black Gate Is Closed # Al Carondas http://goo.gl/FXwf5j
24-Jan-16 # IV # Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit # Hamfast Gamgee
31-Jan-16 # V # The Window on the West # MirielCelebel
07-Feb-16 # VI # The Forbidden Pool # Hamfast Gamgee
14-Feb-16 # VII # Journey to the Cross-roads # Mironiel
21-Feb-16 # VIII # The Stairs of Cirith Ungol # squire
28-Feb-16 # IX # Shelob's Lair # enanito
06-Mar-16 # X # The Choices of Master Samwise # Surprise Chapter Leader "End G.I. Bran"
(Easter 2016 is March 27)

A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383

A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Darkstone
Immortal


Jan 25 2016, 6:54pm

Post #3 of 21 (1304 views)
Shortcut
Well [In reply to] Can't Post

Tom says "Eldest, that's what I am.’'

And with any work of art who is the Eldest? The artist.

So when Bombadil says “Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless?” it’s Tolkien saying hello to the anonymous reader curled up alone with his book.

That's my take.

******************************************

Fimbrethil, Warrior Entwife



Sez: "Why don't we terraform Earth? It's closer."


Mironiel
The Shire


Jan 25 2016, 7:49pm

Post #4 of 21 (1288 views)
Shortcut
Interesting [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah. Maybe Tolkien needed someone or something to save and look after the hobbits, and so he came up with Tom. Also, did Tolkien write that book 'The Adventures of Tom Bombadil' before or after he wrote LOTR? I read it and well...it didn't seem like the world that Tom was in was Middle-earth.


Mironiel
The Shire


Jan 25 2016, 7:50pm

Post #5 of 21 (1284 views)
Shortcut
Cool [In reply to] Can't Post

I never thought of that! That's a really cool idea.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 25 2016, 8:16pm

Post #6 of 21 (1286 views)
Shortcut
Bombadil in other Media [In reply to] Can't Post

I know that Tom made it into at least one adaptation of The Lord of the Rings: the Mind's Eye audio drama that was broadcast in the U.S. on NPR. The wooden box version of the collection contains 9 CDs (if I remember right, the previous version on cassette consisted of 12 tapes). When I upgraded to CD, I donated my tape set to our local public library.

"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."


- Dream of the Endless


geordie
Tol Eressea

Jan 25 2016, 10:43pm

Post #7 of 21 (1274 views)
Shortcut
Two of Tom's names - [In reply to] Can't Post

- are Forn, and Orald. Mix 'em uo and you get 'For Ronald'.

Q.E.D.

Smile


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jan 25 2016, 11:11pm

Post #8 of 21 (1267 views)
Shortcut
And of course Tom Bombadill is an anagram of "Mad Blob I Molt" [In reply to] Can't Post

Which doesn't help at all -except I thought it was funny.

~~~~~~
The Reading Room read-through of The Two Towers Book IV has started! All chapters now taken - but we'll be planning Book V soon!

week starts # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
03-Jan-16 # I # The Taming of Smeagol # noWizardme Part 1: http://goo.gl/wvyAOx 2: http://goo.gl/6ks0JV 3: http://goo.gl/l0iuEz 4: http://goo.gl/7ket5o
10-Jan-16 # II # The Passage of the Marshes # Oliphaunt Part 1: http://goo.gl/eUEV4u, 2:http://goo.gl/5osCOm 3: http://goo.gl/F9p2Pe
17-Jan-16 # III # The Black Gate Is Closed # Al Carondas http://goo.gl/FXwf5j
24-Jan-16 # IV # Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit # Hamfast Gamgee
31-Jan-16 # V # The Window on the West # MirielCelebel
07-Feb-16 # VI # The Forbidden Pool # Hamfast Gamgee
14-Feb-16 # VII # Journey to the Cross-roads # Mironiel
21-Feb-16 # VIII # The Stairs of Cirith Ungol # squire
28-Feb-16 # IX # Shelob's Lair # enanito
06-Mar-16 # X # The Choices of Master Samwise # Surprise Chapter Leader "End G.I. Bran"
(Easter 2016 is March 27)

A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383

A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Mironiel
The Shire


Jan 26 2016, 12:05am

Post #9 of 21 (1261 views)
Shortcut
O_O [In reply to] Can't Post

I need to find that audio book set NOW.


squire
Half-elven


Jan 26 2016, 2:12am

Post #10 of 21 (1257 views)
Shortcut
Uh-oh [In reply to] Can't Post

Leave out the second "L".

Tom Bombadil is also an anagram for

TO MOLD BAMBI

Suggesting some kind of Hey Dol! behavior training for the Old Forest's deer herds....



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jan 26 2016, 9:14am

Post #11 of 21 (1236 views)
Shortcut
or "Am Bimbo Dolt" :) [In reply to] Can't Post

a helpful website http://wordsmith.org/...l&t=1000&a=n quickly finds 795 (correctly spelled) anagrams to choose from - I won't inflict any more on you Wink

Oh - and I've just realised that by posting silly anagrams I might look like I'm mocking Darkstone & Geordie's theory. I didn't mean to do that and apologise if I appeared to - I just like silly anagrams, even when I can't spell them right late at night.

I like the idea that JRR might be giving himself a sly cameo, but must say I'm not really convinced. I think that Bombadil isn't supposed to be a puzzle that has a specific answer. I've come to enjoy that idea. But that's just my theory, no more provable or otherwise than any other.

~~~~~~
The Reading Room read-through of The Two Towers Book IV has started! All chapters now taken - but we'll be planning Book V soon!

week starts # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
03-Jan-16 # I # The Taming of Smeagol # noWizardme Part 1: http://goo.gl/wvyAOx 2: http://goo.gl/6ks0JV 3: http://goo.gl/l0iuEz 4: http://goo.gl/7ket5o
10-Jan-16 # II # The Passage of the Marshes # Oliphaunt Part 1: http://goo.gl/eUEV4u, 2:http://goo.gl/5osCOm 3: http://goo.gl/F9p2Pe
17-Jan-16 # III # The Black Gate Is Closed # Al Carondas http://goo.gl/FXwf5j
24-Jan-16 # IV # Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit # Hamfast Gamgee
31-Jan-16 # V # The Window on the West # MirielCelebel
07-Feb-16 # VI # The Forbidden Pool # Hamfast Gamgee
14-Feb-16 # VII # Journey to the Cross-roads # Mironiel
21-Feb-16 # VIII # The Stairs of Cirith Ungol # squire
28-Feb-16 # IX # Shelob's Lair # enanito
06-Mar-16 # X # The Choices of Master Samwise # Surprise Chapter Leader "End G.I. Bran"
(Easter 2016 is March 27)

A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383

A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jan 26 2016, 9:27am)


sevilodorf
Tol Eressea


Jan 27 2016, 6:01am

Post #12 of 21 (1180 views)
Shortcut
Tom bad limbo// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com
Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua

(Found in Mathoms, LOTR Tales Untold)




Khim
Bree


Jan 28 2016, 1:54am

Post #13 of 21 (1164 views)
Shortcut
Old Tom [In reply to] Can't Post

Sadly, I seldom visit the reading room, although I always find it a haven for intelligent and courteous discourse. Mironiel, I was drawn to your inquiry because it is quite simply among the most complex conundrums in Tolkien's LOTR. There really is no answer, but many have provided tantalizing insights, including JRR himself. Pay close attention to noWizardme, he is among the wise. I have read much concerning this enigmatic character over the years. (I even have the old radio shows in wooden boxes :) ) I don't necessarily agree with this commentator, but he argues well:

http://whoistombombadil.blogspot.com

There are other equally compelling answers to be found in old post on this site, and elsewhere.

I won't try to answer your questions, but I will share something with you. I first read about Tom almost 40 years ago, when I was twelve years old. I have always loved him. I found Middle-earth wonderful and strange, and Tom always seemed to fit in for me. In my opinion Tom is a problem for those who wish to get to the end of the story, and want everything clearly explained. I guess from the beginning I liked the mystery and magic. Tom was ancient and magical, just like Middle-earth. Sure I wanted to find out what happened next, but I always hated leaving Tom and Goldberry.

You know, it's about time I visited them again.

I am Khim akin to Mim.


dreamflower
Lorien

Jan 30 2016, 2:52pm

Post #14 of 21 (1116 views)
Shortcut
For his kids [In reply to] Can't Post

Short answer: Tom Bombadil was the name of one of his sons' toys. But of course there's more to it than that. I think others have addressed that very well.

Many people think old Tom is out of place narratively. But this isn't so.

The Bombadil chapters serve a real purpose in the story as a transition between the lighter Shire chapters and the gradually darkening chapters ahead. They show how unprepared the hobbits are for the journey they face, and bring them into and out of their first mortal peril.

Plotwise they serve a number of purposes. Foreshadowing is scattered throughout their time with Tom, hints about the world ahead, now that home is behind. And the barrow incident is very important, as we see Frodo prove his courage for the first time, we learn just a little about fallen kingdoms, get our first glimpse of The future king, and most importantly the hobbits receive the small swords that will be vitally important in later chapters.

Tom's an odd character, a blend of zany and serious, and not one that is easily absorbed in a first reading. But a few years after I first encountered Tom, I was introduced to a different character in another medium who also combined zaniness with power and wisdom: the Doctor. When I saw it Four reminded me of Tom Bombadil.

Hmmm...now there's a theory I've never seen about Tom before. Could he have been another hidden incarnation of our favorite Gallifreyan? Wink

Some people call it fanfiction. I call it story-internal literary criticism.


Mironiel
The Shire


Jan 30 2016, 3:32pm

Post #15 of 21 (1106 views)
Shortcut
I did like old Tom [In reply to] Can't Post

I did like old Tom, but to me, he did seem out of place :D but that's just my opinion. He was never mentioned in The Silmarillion, as far as I can remember, and I think that for me, that was part of the problem. He is said to be 'eldest' but there was no mention of a man who came before the elves. Instead he's completely absent from The Silmarillion.


Mironiel
The Shire


Jan 30 2016, 3:36pm

Post #16 of 21 (1105 views)
Shortcut
Tolkien's kids had a toy named Tom Bombadil?! [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien's kids had a toy named Tom Bombadil?! Well that's something I didn't know XD I do agree, though, Tom is important. I am confused by his character though. No mention in the Silmarillion, even though he's 'eldest', he seems to be a man, but he is immortal(elf maybe?!).


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jan 30 2016, 5:00pm

Post #17 of 21 (1102 views)
Shortcut
You mean Tom Bombadill is... [In reply to] Can't Post

...over there?


[Caption - Doctor Who, as played by Tom Baker, pointing]

Well the first name and initials are right, and no wonder he's the Eldest and also isn't. He's obviously wearing his away strip (red jacket and brown hat)

~~~~~~
The Reading Room read-through of The Two Towers Book IV has started! All Book IV chapters now taken, but volunteers are needed for ROTK http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293

Book IV schedule and links:
week starts # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread Notes erminder
03-Jan-16 # I # The Taming of Smeagol # noWizardme Part 1: http://goo.gl/wvyAOx 2: http://goo.gl/6ks0JV 3: http://goo.gl/l0iuEz 4: http://goo.gl/7ket5o y
10-Jan-16 # II # The Passage of the Marshes # Oliphaunt Part 1: http://goo.gl/eUEV4u, 2:http://goo.gl/5osCOm 3: http://goo.gl/F9p2Pe y
17-Jan-16 # III # The Black Gate Is Closed # Al Carondas http://goo.gl/FXwf5j y
24-Jan-16 # IV # Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit # Hamfast Gamgee http://goo.gl/QIEN7C 2; http://goo.gl/FwZoyQ Y

31-Jan-16 # V # The Window on the West # MirielCelebel
07-Feb-16 # VI # The Forbidden Pool # Hamfast Gamgee
14-Feb-16 # VII # Journey to the Cross-roads # Mironiel
21-Feb-16 # VIII # The Stairs of Cirith Ungol # squire
28-Feb-16 # IX # Shelob's Lair # enanito
06-Mar-16 # X # The Choices of Master Samwise # Surprise Chapter Leader "End G.I. Bran"
(Easter 2016 is March 27)

A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383

A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


dreamflower
Lorien

Jan 30 2016, 8:20pm

Post #18 of 21 (1087 views)
Shortcut
Yep. [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, they did. JRRT often included things just because his kids liked them. He was that kind of dad.

Not every character is mentioned in every part of the Legendarium.

Most of the Silm took place in the West, or involved the conflict between Elves, Men of the West and Melkor/Morgoth. Tom was not involved in any of that, probably thought it was all pretty silly.

It's clear Tom is sort of a hermit. He keeps to himself in much the same way as Radagast or Beorn or Fangorn do. In fact, even more so, only rarely interacting with his neighbors in Buckland or the Marish, or with travelers who venture through his own little realm. So why have a mention of him at all when he does not appear. We see him when he's needed and not otherwise.

I have a feeling he was probably around, but neutral and uninterested during all that conflict over shiny jewels that had no meaning for him.

Some people call it fanfiction. I call it story-internal literary criticism.


dreamflower
Lorien

Jan 30 2016, 8:23pm

Post #19 of 21 (1088 views)
Shortcut
It would be fun [In reply to] Can't Post

To see a fanfic based on that premise.

I've always thought that the Doctor's personality was kind of like old Tom Bombadil--zany, but really powerful and wise underneath the silliness.

Some people call it fanfiction. I call it story-internal literary criticism.


dreamflower
Lorien

Jan 30 2016, 8:32pm

Post #20 of 21 (1084 views)
Shortcut
Kind of both [In reply to] Can't Post

The poems were collected and published in 1962, but he had written them over the decades previous--so some of them had been written before, during and after he was writing LotR.

Some people call it fanfiction. I call it story-internal literary criticism.


Khim
Bree


Feb 2 2016, 6:24am

Post #21 of 21 (1011 views)
Shortcut
The Mystery of Tom [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien was obsessed with tantalizing fragments of lost tales. Much of the mythology he loved only survives in tiny pieces, just a name, or an unusual phrase in an ancient tongue. It becomes clear when one finishes the many volumes of the History of Middle-earth prepared by Christopher Tolkien, that his father's invented mythology survives in fragments much like the actual mythology that was his inspiration.

The Silmarillion is a collection of story fragments, not a complete whole. Whether viewed aesthetically as part of Tolkien's fictional universe, or as a faux artifact of an historical Middle-earth, that Tom doesn't appear in the narrative does not imply he wasn't there. As has been suggested by others, he may have been ignored because he wasn't concerned with the Silmarils, or his part in the lore of that time may have simply been lost.

Too bad we don't have more ancient tales, and more stories of Middle-earth, especially tales about Tom.

I am Khim akin to Mim.

 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.