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Al Carondas
Lorien
Jan 17 2016, 6:33pm
Post #1 of 65
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*** LOTR Read Through *** Chapter IV.3: The Two Towers: The Black Gate is Closed
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So they stumbled on through the weary end of the night, and until the coming of another day of fear they walked in silence with bowed heads, seeing nothing, and hearing nothing but the wind hissing in their ears . . .
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Before the next day dawned their journey to Mordor was over. The marshes and the desert were behind them. Before them, darkling against a pallid sky, the great mountains reared their threatening heads.
So does Dr. Tolkien, transition from Chapter 2 to Chapter 3 of The Two Towers: with a silent, brooding crawl to a sudden, ominous halt. And here on Sauron’s doorstep we will remain for the duration. There is no movement, and little action throughout the chapter, but it is a pivotal chapter nevertheless. Literally, in fact, for it is here that the quest makes an unexpected turn.
And at the reins we find Gollum.
Thanks for allowing me to lead this chapter discussion. It is my first, so be gentle, please.  I’ll do my best. Of course, many of the things that most intrigue me may not intrigue others, so I really want to encourage everyone to chime in freely as we go with whatever ideas, impressions or questions you got as you read the chapter. And I will try to respond and simply facilitate the discussion. As for the format of discussion, I’d like to keep it open-ended. For now, I’d like to continue our discussion in a single thread and just follow where the conversation takes us. I’ll begin with a few ideas that I had as I read and will be adding more as we move on.
So, getting back then. Gollum is at the reins. What do we all think of that, I wonder.
On the one hand Gollum’s emergence as leader of the quest is completely unexpected. But is it, on the other hand, inevitable? After all, Gollum is on a quest of his own. It’s no accident that he has caught up to Frodo and Sam. Is it Gollum’s tenacity that is most responsible for his now taking control of the Ring’s journey? And if that is so, is it Sauron’s will within the Ring, rife with his own appetite for domination, that is responsible for Gollum’s tenacity? Or should we give Frodo the lion’s share of the credit here, for having spared Gollum and enlisted him in the quest? What do you think: was it mercy, malevolence or plain old hobbit toughness that is most responsible for saving the quest at the Black Gate and turning it towards Cirith Ungol?
Of course, Gollum’s first suggestion is not to seek a different entrance into Mordor, but rather to turn back. He pleads with Frodo to keep the Ring and be kind to Smeagol. Or to give it back to Smeagol and go away to safe places. We know that Frodo can’t do this, of course. But I’m just curious to know what people think would happen if Smeagol did get the Ring back here? In the short term? In the long term?
Frodo, however, is determined. He refuses Gollum’s entreaty, and it is then that Gollum reveals that there is another way into Sauron’s realm. Sam smells a rat. He suspects that Gollum may be acting under orders from Sauron. He muses that in any case Gollum would “give us away rather than be caught helping us.” Do you think Gollum would, if such a choice fell to him? What would cause him or prevent him from doing so?
Frodo decides to trust Gollum. Is he being soft-hearted, as Sam fears?
But, having made his decision to trust Gollum, Frodo then delivers a stern warning to his guide that I think is one of the key moments of this chapter:
“You swore a promise by what you call the Precious. Remember that! It will hold you to it; but it will seek a way to twist it to your own undoing. Already you are being twisted. You revealed yourself to me just now, foolishly. Give it back to Smeagol you said. Do not say that again! Do not let that thought grow in you! You will never get it back. But the desire of it may betray you to a bitter end. You will never get it back. In the last need, Smeagol, I should put on the Precious; and the Precious mastered you long ago. If I, wearing it, were to command you, you would obey, even if it were to leap from a precipice or to cast yourself into the fire. And such would be my command. So have a care, Smeagol!”
Is Frodo’s foresight here a result of his having been named Elf-friend and all? No, I’m just kidding. These are very strong words. What I’m really wondering when I read them is what prompts them. Is the Ring’s power beginning to reveal itself here? Is the Ring itself the reason why Frodo is telling Smeagol to back off? Frodo has previously tried to give the Ring away to Aragorn (at the Council) and to Galadriel. Are those days gone forever now? Has Frodo changed? Would he have the strength of will to give the Ring up to anyone now? Why or why not? Or perhaps Frodo’s motivation here is genuinely benevolent. Is he trying to save Smeagol? Why or why not? Any other ideas?
Tolkien then tells us that “Frodo’s threat had quite unnerved [Gollum]”. He explains that the speech “abashed” and “terrified” Gollum, who, like Sam, is quite surprised by the sternness of Frodo’s words, having previously taken him as a bit “blind”. What do you make of this incident? What can we take from it about each of these three characters?
Well, perhaps this is good for a start. There is plenty more to discuss, and I have plenty more to interject, but for now let us see where the discussion takes us.
"Good Morning!"
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 18 2016, 9:53am
Post #2 of 65
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Frodo and Ringo in a shell-hole (assorted thoughts)
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Thanks Al C!
Before the next day dawned their journey to Mordor was over. Is a dramatic start to the chapter, isn't it ("what? over already?" I think before realising, as the characters shortly are to realise, that the journey to[/] Mordor might be the comparatively easy bit.)
I'd not noticed this, but you are right: all the action takes place in what might as well be a shell-hole. Peeking out at the enemy from such a place was probably very imaginable to many of Tolkien's contemporaries. Enough of them - including perhaps Tolkien himself - would have done just that in either World War, or other wars such as the Korean. I notice that when Gollum raises his head cautiously over the rim, he chooses a place between two points of stone. I'm inferring that this is so as not to show the characteristic outline of a head peeking over the rim, and therefore inviting being seen (and possibly shot). I'm guessing that was something you'd be told (or find out) in the army. (But I'm guessing - I expect someone will know!)
Frodo's behaviour in response to Gollum follows on nicely from a point raised in our discussions last week, I think. We were thinking about whether Frodo being tougher or nastier reflects the growing power of the Ring. That is, should we be acknowledging two sub-Frodo personalities emerging - Frodo-classic and Frodo-with-the-Ring? (Or for conciseness & in line with Sam's "Slinker and Stinker" , should we christen this putatively emerging aspect of Frodo "Ringo"?). Maybe not.
A usual, I doubt we can come to anything conclusive (but that would spoil the fun, wouldn't it!). If anything this chapter seems to add to the ambiguity. On the one hand, the narrator tells us that Sam and Gollum had confused "kindness with blindness". That suggests that Frodo might not be a martinet, but isn't a doormat either, and so we might expect Frodo-classic to be exhibiting a tough side under tough circumstances. On the other hand the detail of Gollum's speech that Frodo picks up upon is "give it back to Smeagol". So one can think that it's the prospect of loss of the Ring that causes Frodo (or Ringo?) to react with the seemingly uncharacteristic drama of threatening Gollum with death:
'...I should put on the Precious; and the Precious mastered you long ago. If I, wearing it, were to command you, you would obey, even if it were to leap from a precipice or to cast yourself into the fire. And such would be my command.'
Something a bit like that does happen in the end, doesn't it? Gollum certainly falls off a precipice into the fire - though it's not clear that Frodo ordered him to (something to remember to return to at Mount Doom, perhaps). Frodo does seem to have a knack for foreshadowing himself - a couple of chapters ago he presciently said:
‘I wish there was a clear path in front of us: then I’d go on until my legs gave way.’
(Frodo, in Taming of Smeagol)
...and again it ends up pretty much like that!
~~~~~~
The Reading Room read-through of The Two Towers Book IV has started!
Just one chapter left needing a leader: 07-Feb-16 # VI # The Forbidden Pool # Could you do it?
If you are potentially interested in leading, but not sure what leading a chapter involves, see here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=884122#884122
Links to earlier posts in this read-through:
week starts # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
03-Jan-16 # I # The Taming of Smeagol # noWizardme Part 1: http://goo.gl/wvyAOx 2: http://goo.gl/6ks0JV 3: http://goo.gl/l0iuEz 4: http://goo.gl/7ket5o
10-Jan-16 # II # The Passage of the Marshes # Oliphaunt Part 1: http://goo.gl/eUEV4u
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 18 2016, 6:00pm
Post #3 of 65
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I probably ought to explain 'pantser'. It sounds like one who inflicts a painful and humiliating playground torture on others. Or possibly like someone with incontinence problems. But really it comes from strategies for writing fiction - A planner is someone who creates plans, and a pantser is their opposite - someone who begins writing with no plan, to see what will happen (e.g. see http://blog.nanowrimo.org/...planner-or-a-pantser ). Tolkien, interestingly, seemed to be a pantser at some points in writing LOTR and a planner at others.
So in calling Frodo a pantser, I'm accusing him of not having given enough thought to what he would do when he got this far. (Threatening Gollum with the Ring seems more effective than a wedgie, anyway, even if that were practical given Gollum's attire) This seems only fair to balance my criticism of Saruman for making over-theoretical plans and then being somewhat captured by them instead of being wiling to accommodate new information (http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=883598#883598 and also the subthread that started)
That said, I'm not sure how much good a plan would be until Frodo could actually arrive & see the situation. And I'm not sure whether Gandalf had a specific plan, or was being a pantser too. (Maybe with enough pantsers they could for a pantser division and blitzkrieg their way in? Was that the plan...no, thought not.  )
Maybe if Gollum hadn't been ready, like a good staff officer, with Plan B, our heroes would have had to have hung out in their hollow for a while, studying the troop movements & hoping to find an opportunity to sneak themselves in on the end of an incoming column. I wonder if that might have worked?
~~~~~~
The Reading Room read-through of The Two Towers Book IV has started!
Just one chapter left needing a leader: 07-Feb-16 # VI # The Forbidden Pool # Could you do it?
If you are potentially interested in leading, but not sure what leading a chapter involves, see here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=884122#884122
Links to earlier posts in this read-through:
week starts # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
03-Jan-16 # I # The Taming of Smeagol # noWizardme Part 1: http://goo.gl/wvyAOx 2: http://goo.gl/6ks0JV 3: http://goo.gl/l0iuEz 4: http://goo.gl/7ket5o
10-Jan-16 # II # The Passage of the Marshes # Oliphaunt Part 1: http://goo.gl/eUEV4u
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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enanito
Rohan
Jan 18 2016, 6:47pm
Post #4 of 65
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The Hobbit and then LOTR are the first book memories I have of maps that I constantly was turning back to during my readings. I remember flipping back-and-forth between the map of M.E. and the current chapter I was in as I encountered something new, trying to visualize in my minds-eye these strange lands. I feel I'm lucky to have read these books (pre-movies) enough times that even though i really appreciate how PJ brought them to life, I still retain a lot of my own images of what I imagined M.E. would be like.
Like here with Tolkien's descriptions of the Ephed and Ered Lithui, Cirith Gorgor, the Teeth of Mordor, the Morannon. There's just something about Tolkien's ability to not only paint the picture, but to give it a sense of depth and history. He could have just described the gateway to Sauron's realm, but with his cloaked references to the ancient history of how and why it came to be what it now was - each time I read through I wanted to know more! Of course it wasn't until later reading the Silmarillion that I finally found out more..
We even hear distant echoes of the drums of Barad-dűr. I remember flipping back to the map thinking "wow, are they really that close???"
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Jan 18 2016, 8:47pm
Post #5 of 65
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And I'm not sure whether Gandalf had a specific plan, or was being a pantser too.
I don’t think Gandalf had a plan. I think he trusted that a way would be opened that he did not expect since Frodo was MEANT to have the Ring, and MEANT to find a way to Mt. Doom.
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Jan 18 2016, 8:49pm
Post #6 of 65
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On the one hand, the narrator tells us that Sam and Gollum had confused "kindness with blindness". That suggests that Frodo might not be a martinet, but isn't a doormat either, and so we might expect Frodo-classic to be exhibiting a tough side under tough circumstances.
It may be Sam who is a bit “blind” about Frodo. Didn’t Frodo say it was a pity that Bilbo didn’t stab Gollum, way back when we were still at Bag End? Perhaps Frodo has never been quite as kind as Sam imagines.
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Jan 18 2016, 8:51pm
Post #7 of 65
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Frodo decides to trust Gollum. Is he being soft-hearted, as Sam fears?
Frodo is accepting his fate. After all, Gandalf told him this day would come.
Any other ideas?
Gandalf noticed it first in Rivendell, when Frodo’s hand looked a bit transparent. Galadriel was the first to say something about it, when she demonstrated that Frodo could see Nenya and Sam could not. Frodo is gaining powers, he’s changing as he falls further under the influence of the Ring.
Is Frodo’s foresight here a result of his having been named Elf-friend and all? No, I’m just kidding
I’m not sure if his foresight is tied to the Ring or not. Elves and Wizards do not have a monopoly on Middle Earth prophecy. Didn’t Aragorn’s mother, and grandmother, both prophecy? His grandmother that Arathorn would die young. His mother that Aragorn was the hope of his people. Of course, both these women were Numenorean & Elf-friends for sure. So perhaps Frodo’s foresight is a result of his having been named Elf-friend and all.
Tolkien then tells us that “Frodo’s threat had quite unnerved [Gollum]”. He explains that the speech “abashed” and “terrified” Gollum, who, like Sam, is quite surprised by the sternness of Frodo’s words, having previously taken him as a bit “blind”. What do you make of this incident? What can we take from it about each of these three characters?
Does the description of an “abashed” Gollum hint at a remnant of decency and shame, or indicate discomfiture upon realizing he’s got less control over the hobbits than he supposed?
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Al Carondas
Lorien
Jan 18 2016, 11:59pm
Post #9 of 65
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Pantser? As in fly-by-the-seat-of?
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It is remarkable that we as readers have also come all this way with the Fellowship with so much expectancy and anticipation, only to suddenly realize that we never really knew what to expect when we finally got to Mordor. I am reminded of one of my favorite lines from another famous quest.
They debated long on what was to be done, but they could think of no way of getting rid of Smaug - which had always been a weak point in their plans, as Bilbo felt inclined to point out.
From The Hobbit, Inside Information, only after the party had awakened the sleeping dragon.
"Good Morning!"
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Al Carondas
Lorien
Jan 19 2016, 12:11am
Post #10 of 65
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Lol! That experience sounds very familiar, enanito!
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I always particularly liked the image of the towers of the teeth. And their history and especially their infamy. And what of the secret passwords that Tolkien describes?:
None could pass the Teeth of Mordor and not feel their bite, unless they were summoned by Sauron, or knew the secret passwords that would open the Morannon, the black gate of his land.
Tolkien was so masterful at painting the story right off the edges of the page.
"Good Morning!"
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Al Carondas
Lorien
Jan 19 2016, 12:47am
Post #11 of 65
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Sam's and Gollum's blind spots
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The idea that it might really be Sam who is blind is something I had written in my notes for this chapter. He seems blind by choice, in fact, since he knows that Frodo is wise, but at the same time willingly accepts that Frodo is naive. I think that what Sam is blind to is the fact that Frodo's trust in Gollum is a sign of moral strength, not of mental weakness.
As for Gollum's feeling abashed, I think it is partly because Frodo's warning makes clear that the Ring itself has power to twist Smeagol's words and betray him. And Smeagol knows that Frodo is right. The Ring does have power over him. Does he want to be master of the Precious, or has the Precious already mastered him? I don't think that he wants to consider it too deeply.
"Good Morning!"
(This post was edited by Al Carondas on Jan 19 2016, 12:47am)
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enanito
Rohan
Jan 19 2016, 3:08am
Post #12 of 65
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Is Frodo partially gaining a "good power", or is it all inherently bad?
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My take on the various posts regarding Frodo growing in power is that many feel it is all due to the Evil Ring influencing him. Thus any gained insight, stature, mettle, or firmness is really just evidence of the Ring slowly gaining control of him.
I'm wondering if there's any substance to the idea that Frodo is gaining power in a way that's independent of the Ring? Galadriel's interaction with Frodo seems to indicate a favorable disposition towards Frodo's growth and increased insight (at least to that point), even though he was carrying Sauron's ring. Of all people if she saw his keen sight as an indicator of future Doom (in that the Ring would consume him eventually), wouldn't she have at least hinted at that instead of giving him a pat on the back?
Obviously Frodo and the Ring are quite intrinsically connected, and possibly what might seem like 'improvements' are really just things that mask a deeper and worrying development. But I still tend to think that much of Frodo's growth as Ring-bearer was good and independent in a way of the Ring's control, even if it's hard to distinguish what's what.
But maybe not.
(This post was edited by enanito on Jan 19 2016, 3:09am)
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Al Carondas
Lorien
Jan 19 2016, 3:31am
Post #13 of 65
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That's a great point, enanito. My own sense is that Frodo's ongoing struggle with his burden is bringing out good qualities in him. Or rather, sharpening the qualities that have always been there. I do sense him sort of coming into his own. His mercy to Gollum is one example. And, as Oliphaunt points out, Frodo didn't feel so merciful towards Gollum before the journey began. But now he understands much better the true and terrible power of the One. I think that he is being tested by the Ring, but he is successfully resisting through his own courage and faith. And I feel that he is growing as a result. Not only in virtue, but in power and independence.
"Good Morning!"
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Al Carondas
Lorien
Jan 19 2016, 3:35am
Post #14 of 65
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So then, we have arrived and get our first glimpse of the infamous Land of Mordor, where the shadows lie. What were your first impressions? Was it everything you dreaded it would be?
One thing it seems to be is impenetrable. And, of course, while it's easy to fault Gandalf and Frodo for not having come up with a workable plan to enter Mordor, how could either of them do so? Had Gandalf ever been there before? Of all the Fellowship, perhaps only Aragorn might have been able to help the Ringbearer infiltrate the Land of Shadow. Do you think that was Gandalf's plan?
The three companions watch a troop of Easterlings pass through the Morannon. Frodo proposes to follow them. Gollum tries to persuade Frodo to try a different way into Mordor. In the process, a little more of Smeagol/Gollum is revealed to us. Again, we are shown his fondness for tales and the breadth of his knowledge. He speaks of the Tower of the Moon, and of the terrible city. Yet he also speaks of Osgiliath, and the Great Water, and the lands and peoples of the South. Were you surprised at how knowledgeable Gollum is? What does that say about him? Did it change the way you felt about him?
At one point, Gollum slips into reminiscing:
"The old fortress, very old, very horrible now. We used to hear tales from the South, when Smeagol was young, long ago. O yes, we used to tell lots of tales in the evening, sitting by the banks of the Great River, in the willow-lands, when the River was younger too, gollum, gollum." He began to weep and mutter. The hobbits waited patiently.
What is happening to Gollum? How much of Smeagol is left in him? Is it possible that he could be redeemed? Is that what the author is trying to suggest here?
Gollum also reveals an impressive strategic knowledge of the War, explaining that Sauron will expect a strike from the North but not the West where he thinks he is safe. Sam, for one, seems oblivious to these ideas. What do you make of the fact that Gollum understands these things about the War, whereas Frodo and Sam do not. Is Gollum is smarter than Frodo and Sam?
"Good Morning!"
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 19 2016, 4:33pm
Post #15 of 65
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yes, I think pantser derives from seat-of-the-pants
Y'know I'd never thought of that - I don't recall reading the book the first time and wondering "but how will they get into Mordor?" I suppose that I thought Frodo would find a way, as Main Characters tend to do. perhaps that is a necessity of storytelling: the plot of Frodo wandering around unsuccessfully until his mission becomes irrelevant would probably be hard to pull off, except as ironic humour.
...and nor had I noticed that the Bagginses are serial pansters! Nice one.
~~~~~~
The Reading Room read-through of The Two Towers Book IV has started!
Just one chapter left needing a leader: 07-Feb-16 # VI # The Forbidden Pool # Could you do it?
If you are potentially interested in leading, but not sure what leading a chapter involves, see here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=884122#884122
Links to earlier posts in this read-through:
week starts # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
03-Jan-16 # I # The Taming of Smeagol # noWizardme Part 1: http://goo.gl/wvyAOx 2: http://goo.gl/6ks0JV 3: http://goo.gl/l0iuEz 4: http://goo.gl/7ket5o
10-Jan-16 # II # The Passage of the Marshes # Oliphaunt Part 1: http://goo.gl/eUEV4u, 2:http://goo.gl/5osCOm 3: http://goo.gl/F9p2Pe
17-Jan-16 # III # The Black Gate Is Closed # Al Carondas http://goo.gl/FXwf5j
24-Jan-16 # IV # Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit # Hamfast Gamgee
31-Jan-16 # V # The Window on the West # MirielCelebel
07-Feb-16 # VI # The Forbidden Pool #
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 19 2016, 8:01pm
Post #17 of 65
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That's a good question - how smart (in the US English sense of 'clever' ) is Gollum?
Gollum certainly has intelligence in the military sense - knowledge, information. We get plenty of that in this chapter - so much that Sam is suspicious. But I don't think, myself, that we need to postulate that Gollum is able to read Sauron's mind. Gollum has travelled far, and seen many things. He's an expert slinker and evesdropper. Long ago "He became sharp-eyed and keen-eared for all that was hurtful. The ring had given him power according to his stature. " (Gandalf I.Ch 2) If he's kept those skills, he might have learned much by fairly non-magical methods. The rest comes from 'tales long ago' - we've already discussed that Gollum seems to have grown up in a culture more open to that kind of thing. He's older than the other two, as well (do we know how old Gollum is, actually?)
Of course, it helps that Tolkien needs us to know this stuff. But Gollum is not too improbable a source of information. I bet Denethor would have been grateful if Faramir had realised this & pumped Gollum for all this stuff on troop movements. But I don't recall this happening (we'll find out shortly when we get to Forbidden Pool).
Does Gollum have intelligence in the other sense - quick wits, the ability to make inferences etc? I think so. His plan to lure Frodo and Sam to Cirith Ungol is cleverly manipulative. I notice that Frodo and Sam tend to talk to Gollum as if he;s an animal or small child sometimes (and Gollum's speech is sometimes like that of a small child). But it's interesting to think about whether that is causing them to under-estimate him intellectually.
~~~~~~
The Reading Room read-through of The Two Towers Book IV has started!
Just one chapter left needing a leader: 07-Feb-16 # VI # The Forbidden Pool # Could you do it?
If you are potentially interested in leading, but not sure what leading a chapter involves, see here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=884122#884122
Links to earlier posts in this read-through:
week starts # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
03-Jan-16 # I # The Taming of Smeagol # noWizardme Part 1: http://goo.gl/wvyAOx 2: http://goo.gl/6ks0JV 3: http://goo.gl/l0iuEz 4: http://goo.gl/7ket5o
10-Jan-16 # II # The Passage of the Marshes # Oliphaunt Part 1: http://goo.gl/eUEV4u, 2:http://goo.gl/5osCOm 3: http://goo.gl/F9p2Pe
17-Jan-16 # III # The Black Gate Is Closed # Al Carondas http://goo.gl/FXwf5j
24-Jan-16 # IV # Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit # Hamfast Gamgee
31-Jan-16 # V # The Window on the West # MirielCelebel
07-Feb-16 # VI # The Forbidden Pool #
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jan 19 2016, 10:04pm
Post #18 of 65
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All this talk about Gollum's smarts is making me feel really dumb
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Though I must delicately disagree and say that I think Gollum knows a little too much, becoming a convenient infodumper for the narrator. I don't see how someone spending centuries alone, friendless, talking to himself and his Ring, devolving into a subhobbit creature, etc, somehow knows so much about current geopolitics which Frodo never picked up while he had The Wise around.
Maybe Gollum never let his subscription to the Mordor Gazette lapse, or maybe he does indeed have a tenuous connection to Sauron, likely unknown to even the Dark Lord, that gives him some information on what Barad-dur is thinking about. Galadriel was able to read Sauron's mind, and Gandalf could too, at least in bits and parts, and he's never met him face to face as an Istari.
I really like your observation about Gollum being sly (vs. intelligent/intellectual). To me he is a fractured being, part hobbit, part animal, part wretched 1-of-a-kind, but I like your suggestion that he's playing dumber than he really is to dupe the hobbits into underestimating him. He really plays them like a fiddle all the way to Shelob's Lair, though Faramir was insightful enough to spot the deception. Sam's suspicion was just his personality, not insight like Faramir's.
And Frodo? I think a little bit of him wants to think Gollum is redeemable, so he overlooks his flaws. A little bit of him is weary from the quest in general and the Ring in particular, and when you're weary, you're don't have the energy to analyze other people in depth. And another parat of Frodo is living off of irrational hope, because his rational side has told him he's doomed, so that irrational hope is spilling over into hoping Gollum can be trusted.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Jan 20 2016, 12:20am
Post #19 of 65
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Maybe Gollums communication abilities improves when he is with other beings and does not talk so much in us and sssssss. And possibly it is rather common knowledge with a reasonably intelligent observer that Sauron is not paying too much attention to home defence at the time. Don't a couple of Orcs mention this later in the book?
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Al Carondas
Lorien
Jan 20 2016, 3:01am
Post #20 of 65
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We know that Smeagol acquired the Precious in T.A. 2463. From that we can deduce that he is nearly 600 years old when he meets Frodo. (And in his defense: when 600 years old you reach, look as good you will not.) But when we consider that Gollum has spent the best part of that time quite literally living in a cave, should we really expect him to possess any great wisdom? I'm not suggesting that he is able to read Sauron's mind, but he seems exceptionally observant and inquisitive. This is convenient for use by the author, true, but I find it interesting that it is also consistent with what Gandalf has told us about Smeagol. He is "interested in roots and beginnings". He likes to dig for secrets both literally and figuratively - for example, like those secrets he imagines might be found at the mountain's root. It's kind of unhobbit-like, isn't it?
I think you put your finger right on my own vague notion, noWizardme. I think that Frodo and Sam are underestimating Gollum's cleverness, partly because of his speech. And maybe also partly because of that simple nature that emerges at times (like whenever he talks about fissshes).
"Good Morning!"
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jan 20 2016, 3:15am
Post #21 of 65
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And maybe also partly because of that simple nature that emerges at times (like whenever he talks about fissshes).
Just mention "ice cream" around me, and you'll see a simple-minded 3-year-old magically appear. Fish for some, ice cream for others: we have our weaknessesesesesessess.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jan 20 2016, 3:17am
Post #22 of 65
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Does the description of an “abashed” Gollum hint at a remnant of decency and shame, or indicate discomfiture upon realizing he’s got less control over the hobbits than he supposed?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jan 20 2016, 3:24am
Post #23 of 65
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That sounds whinier than intended, but it's late at night, and I'm behind in this chapter, and it's the Ring's fault I'm whining anyway.
Back in The Mirror of Galadriel, Galadriel tells Frodo:
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'...as Ring-bearer and as one that has borne it on finger and seen that which is hidden, your sight is grown keener. You have perceived my thought more clearly than many that are accounted wise. '
I'm wondering whether Gollum is afraid of Frodo reading his mind, & discovering his treacherous plan?Back to the topic: if Frodo could effortlessly see into the mind of Galadriel, one of the shrewdest and most powerful people in ME, why couldn't he see more of Gollum's mind, specifically, the Great Betrayal that was waiting for them in a spider's lair? I say that more as question than statement, however, because I think Frodo saw "the gist" of Galadriel's thoughts and feelings, that she wanted the Ring, not that he could read the Lorien Lottery numbers in her mind. Similarly, he could maybe see the treachery in Gollum's mind, but not the specifics, and he already knew Gollum was treacherous, so it wasn't news. And maybe he could see more into Galadriel's mind because he had worn the One and she had one of the Three, and less of Gollum's mind because the latter wasn't a whole being with a whole mind like Galadriel. So I've talked myself out of my question for the most part, but let's skip ahead to Faramir warning Frodo about Gollum's impending treachery which Frodo remained blithely ignorant to, and now I'm back to, "Why did a mere Man see it when Frodo did not?"
Not a big deal, because if Frodo foresaw everything, we'd have a boring book. But one wonders, Precious, yes.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jan 20 2016, 3:26am
Post #24 of 65
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It is remarkable that we as readers have also come all this way with the Fellowship with so much expectancy and anticipation, only to suddenly realize that we never really knew what to expect when we finally got to Mordor. I am reminded of one of my favorite lines from another famous quest.
They debated long on what was to be done, but they could think of no way of getting rid of Smaug - which had always been a weak point in their plans, as Bilbo felt inclined to point out.
From The Hobbit, Inside Information, only after the party had awakened the sleeping dragon.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jan 20 2016, 3:31am
Post #25 of 65
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I'm with you on the good power
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I think Frodo absorbed a dose of Elven magic at the Mirror of Galadriel, though JRR would never put it so crudely. And I think that post-Weathertop, he's been growing spiritually after his brush with "the dark side." Put the two together, take away his Wise tutors like Gandalf, Aragorn, and Elrond, and Frodo grows into his role as the force of quiet decency and goodness that needs to keep the evil of the Ring at bay.
Simultaneously, the Ring is growing in power as it reaches its birthplace, so good and evil powers are both becoming more pronounced in Frodo as the journey winds on. It's a wonder they don't tear him apart, but at the end they did.
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Reverting to childhood
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