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Weather patterns in Middle-earth

Cirashala
Valinor


Jan 8 2016, 12:48am

Post #1 of 23 (1961 views)
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Weather patterns in Middle-earth Can't Post

So, I was curious.

Middle-earth is loosely related to an "ancient" Europe, or so it seemed to be in Tolkien's mindset.

Yet I wonder- wouldn't weather patterns have been very different than European weather patterns now, due to shifting oceans and a difference in mountain range locations and such?

I know it seems to be a bit odd for me to be debating weather, but I was re-reading the part in Queer Lodgings of The Hobbit where they were riding north to the elven gate, and noticed something odd.

Apparently, though it was only mid-late July, there was an "autumnal mist" one of those mornings.

I don't know how it is in July for most of Continental Europe, but here (Pacific Northwest- Idaho, US) end of July-beginning of August is the HOTTEST time of our year usually!

I was curious, and looked up info on fog, and turns out it's most common in winter, late autumn and early spring. Not summertime.

So that led me to wonder- what would the weather patterns be like, according to geographical patterns and the particular flora and fauna in certain areas, in the various areas of Middle-earth?

Is there some element of it that would justify morning fog in July in the Anduin Vale? And I'm curious about the weather and climate of other main regions/areas of ME as well now.



squire
Half-elven


Jan 8 2016, 3:22am

Post #2 of 23 (1927 views)
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Autumnal fog - its uses and misuses [In reply to] Can't Post

"There was an autumn-like mist white upon the ground and the air was chill, but soon the sun rose red in the East and the mists vanished..." - The Hobbit, "Queer Lodgings".

It's hard to say how hard Tolkien worked to translate his familiar English weather patterns to the continental context of his Middle-earth, where even the English-modeled Shire is part of a landmass with far less sea-frontage than today's Europe. I think he does pretty well - I have always been more bothered by the indefinite volume of Anduin in LotR (fords? at Osgiliath? really?) than I have by his weather reports.

For instance, I looked using Google for "autumnal mists" in Hungary - quite far into Europe, on the other side of the Alps from the Atlantic, thus perhaps somewhat similar to the vale of Anduin where the Dwarves are after leaving Beorn - and found that mists appear in the Danube valley throughout the summer, depending on the air temperature relative to the river temperature.



squire online:
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Cirashala
Valinor


Jan 8 2016, 3:54am

Post #3 of 23 (1917 views)
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Thanks squire! [In reply to] Can't Post

So if I wish to have a good point of reference for the weather in Mirkwood and the Anduin valley, then looking at the weather of Hungary around its rivers would be helpful?

I admit- continental Europe and continental US have very different climates and temperatures, from what I have heard, so I'm afraid I'm a bit ignorant on such matters Evil



noWizardme
Half-elven


Jan 8 2016, 11:59am

Post #4 of 23 (1894 views)
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I can't think that I've seen summer fog inland in southern England [In reply to] Can't Post

Much more of a autumn to spring thing. I have been in thick mist walking on the Cornish coast path in August though.

That said, the passage seems to be a misty July sunrise, and you'd have to be up at 5am to see a sunrise in Southern England in July, so I've not seen many!

~~~~~~
The Reading Room read-through of The Two Towers Book IV has started!

Two chapters of our Book IV read-through still need volunteers to read them - see http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=887613#887613
If you are potentially interested in leading, but not sure what leading a chapter involves, see here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=884122#884122

Links to earlier posts in this read-through:
week starts # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
03-Jan-16 # I # The Taming of Smeagol # noWizardme Part 1: http://goo.gl/wvyAOx 2: http://goo.gl/6ks0JV 3: http://goo.gl/l0iuEz


A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383

A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Ilmatar
Rohan


Jan 8 2016, 12:09pm

Post #5 of 23 (1897 views)
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Summer mists of Europe [In reply to] Can't Post

At least in this corner of Europe (Finland) summer mists are quite typical, already around midsummer/June. There are clear nights and there are misty nights.

The end of July & beginning of August is the hottest time here too, but not nearly as hot as what you are having then, and not as dry I presume. The cooler nighttime air makes the humidity condense into mist over fields, meadows and lakes. I see nothing strange in morning fog in July in the Anduin Vale - I imagine it looks pretty much the same as misty early mornings look on any local lakefronts...

June/July mists (albeit around midnight, but it looks the same in the morning Tongue with just a little more light):



(And there are a few photos of "Midsummer mist" in the end of this post.)


Quote
I was curious, and looked up info on fog, and turns out it's most common in winter, late autumn and early spring. Not summertime.


That depends on where - whatever the source was, it must have ignored some parts of the world. Tongue We don't usually have winter mists/fog (or early spring) because all humidity solidifies into ice, creating frost rather than mist. As for "autumnal mists," I don't suppose there is a difference from summer mists (except that in misty photos I can get corn instead of flowers on the foreground...)

September mists, for comparison:



It's nice to look at some summer photos now that we have -30 C / -22 F.


(This post was edited by Ilmatar on Jan 8 2016, 12:18pm)
Attachments: mist in june 2 (Custom).jpg (25.6 KB)
  mist in june (Custom).jpg (26.3 KB)


Cirashala
Valinor


Jan 8 2016, 2:49pm

Post #6 of 23 (1885 views)
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You're in Finland, right? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wouldn't that be a maritime climate (northern), rather than a continental one?

I think the fog article mentions this. The salty air tends to have more fog even in summertime due condensation on the salt crystals in the air (that's why coastal areas, like the infamous San Francisco fog that is so thick you can't see your hand in front of your face on the bridge, is so bad). So that might account for your mists in the summertime (then again, I could be very wrong and I freely admit that- gorgeous pics btw! You live in a beautiful country Smile).

Where the dwarves are at is so far inland, with large mountain ranges between them and coastal areas, that anything maritime (short of the Anduin itself, which is freshwater not saltwater) would not affect them nearly as much as it would affect you.

As for here- last summer we broke a plethora of heat records both for highest temperature disparity (June saw 107 F/ 41.6 C, and it's only usually about 85 F/ 29 C-killed a lot of farm and garden produce Unsure). Late July (as it is in the story) typically sees an average of about 90-95 F/ 32-35 C, and this past summer it saw 95-104 F/35-40 C.

And it's VERY dry here (thank goodness- I got heatstroke over a dozen times last summer, and if it had been humid too I'm positive I would have been hospitalized, since I had an ER visit via ambulance one of those times as is). Our average humidity during the day is MAYBE only about 30%, unless it's actually raining or snowing (in which case it's closer to that 100%, but only then does it go above 50% at the MOST).

We get some beautiful fog over the many rivers and lakes around here (ironically enough, my 6 year old just crawled into our room/bed (it's almost 7 am, and she does that every morning when she gets up- she's very much a snugglebug- and she said it's very foggy outside right now). But it's usually in late autumn, sometimes in winter (when the ice crystals freeze in the air- according to weather reports online, it's 33 F/ 0.55 C outside, which is warmer than it has been lately), and in early spring here, and tends to concentrate around the waterways (though that doesn't preclude fog like right now).

I'm in northern Idaho, US- about 310 miles (496 km) away from the Puget Sound (3 hours drive south of the Canadian border), which is the closest ocean area to us (probably closer to almost 400 miles/640 km to the actual Pacific coast) with a mountain range between us and it, so we are considered continental weather wise.

But I have a feeling our temps are higher than much of Europe anyway Wink



(This post was edited by Cirashala on Jan 8 2016, 2:51pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jan 8 2016, 3:25pm

Post #7 of 23 (1870 views)
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lovely pictures, Ilmatar! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~
The Reading Room read-through of The Two Towers Book IV has started!

Two chapters of our Book IV read-through still need volunteers to read them - see http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=887613#887613
If you are potentially interested in leading, but not sure what leading a chapter involves, see here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=884122#884122

Links to earlier posts in this read-through:
week starts # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
03-Jan-16 # I # The Taming of Smeagol # noWizardme Part 1: http://goo.gl/wvyAOx 2: http://goo.gl/6ks0JV 3: http://goo.gl/l0iuEz


A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383

A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Cirashala
Valinor


Jan 8 2016, 4:11pm

Post #8 of 23 (1874 views)
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winter mist here [In reply to] Can't Post

 photo lake coeur dalene winter gorgeous pic_zpsw99bgxti.jpg

Lake Coeur D'Alene, Idaho



(This post was edited by dernwyn on Jan 9 2016, 1:44am)


Ilmatar
Rohan


Jan 8 2016, 6:57pm

Post #9 of 23 (1849 views)
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No salty air here :) [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm glad you asked Smile and thank you for compliment the pics! Finnish climate has features from both maritime and continental climate, but no, most of the country is definitely NOT of a maritime climate, and those mist photos were far enough inland to have nothing to do with a maritime climate (and there are similar summer mists through the country, hundreds of miles inland). No salty air where I live at all - our mists are simply the result of moisture rising from the ground and lakes when the air becomes cool for the night, and they usually evaporate a little while after sunrise. Since the Baltic Sea is far less salty than the oceans and most other seas, even our coastal regions have very low saltiness in the air as well.

It sounds like your summer temperatures are quite close to those in the Mediterranean countries of Europe. I apologize for taking the easy way this time Blush and instead of comparing Finnish temperatures will just put a link to climate info here.

Unfortunately the photo link in your latter post seems to be broken, but I guess I could search the 'net for winter mists - my mind keeps trying to see a snowy scene with mist, but I suppose if there is mist there cannot be much snow, as the moisture would freeze(?).


Ilmatar
Rohan


Jan 8 2016, 6:58pm

Post #10 of 23 (1847 views)
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Thank you! [In reply to] Can't Post

One more (a midsummer/midnight mist on the same meadow as above).




(This post was edited by Ilmatar on Jan 8 2016, 7:01pm)


Cirashala
Valinor


Jan 9 2016, 2:13am

Post #11 of 23 (1824 views)
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Finally got my picture sorted out [In reply to] Can't Post

and it's in the post now, so you can see what a winter mist looks like from my little corner of the world Smile



Sarahbor
Lorien


Jan 9 2016, 4:39am

Post #12 of 23 (1813 views)
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Here in Maryland [In reply to] Can't Post

Sometimes in summer, in the wee small hours of the morning, we can get mists/fogs. I remember driving to the airport several times at 5 in the morning to catch our vacation flight and it would be foggy (the Chesapeake Bay probably has something to do with it). Of course, I don't know how early in the morning Tolkien was talking about, but a cooler climate and proximity to water would probably allow the fog to persist later into the morning.

And while we're talking about Finland, the names of the months in Finnish give some insight to their climate:

July is heinäkuu (grass month) - I don't know for sure how long there is snow on the ground, but July must be called "grass" month for a reason!
August is elokuu (harvest month) - the harvest is two months earlier than in milder climates, where it's usually in October
October is lokakuu (mud month) - I guess things get very wet and cold and muddy
November is marraskuu (dead month) - by now everything is hunkered down for the winter
My favorite is February, which is helmikuu (pearl month). For the longest time I couldn't figure out why on earth it was called "pearl" month - what do pearls have to do with time of year? Then it hit me when I was looking at pictures of plants after an ice storm: they're covered with little ice droplets that look a lot like...pearls!

January is tammikuu (oak month). I still haven't figured out what the connection to oak trees is. Maybe Ilmatar can help!

Hobbit/LOTR cartoons & humor: http://www.sarahbor.com/


Lond-Daer
Registered User


Jan 9 2016, 12:07pm

Post #13 of 23 (1787 views)
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in the NW Uk [In reply to] Can't Post

Like the pictures posted on here.

You have to be up very early to catch the occasional summer mists that we have in my little corner of the world. Not enough big rivers to cause a huge mist.

I always felt that Tolkien tried to match up the weather to a slightly harsher British climate and seasonal variances.


Ilmatar
Rohan


Jan 9 2016, 2:37pm

Post #14 of 23 (1774 views)
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Beautiful! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you for posting that, it looks so beautiful with all the blue shades in the snow and the sky!

After a while of admiring the scenery I even spotted the winter mist in there, since first I tried to find it over the water on the left... Tongue


Ilmatar
Rohan


Jan 9 2016, 2:45pm

Post #15 of 23 (1773 views)
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Mists and months [In reply to] Can't Post

Early summer morning mists over there as well! Smile In the summertime here the mist can rise late in the evening and then last until a little after sunrise. Those photos I posted were not taken close to any lake, river or swamp, so all the moisture was rising from the ground.

As for January, thanks for asking - I'm shamelessly linking to my posts here: In addition to an oak, tammi originally meant also things like a navel, an axis, a trunk or "tree center" (the latter possibly associated with our world-tree which was an oak). In a sense, this month was the center of the harsh winter time and thus "in the middle" - the heart of winter. (I'm planning to make a post in the Kalevala thread about the names of the months, after I have finally made the continuation post to the actual Kalevala tales that I'm working on.)


(This post was edited by Ilmatar on Jan 9 2016, 2:46pm)


Sarahbor
Lorien


Jan 9 2016, 5:42pm

Post #16 of 23 (1760 views)
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Yay! I finally know! [In reply to] Can't Post

That's interesting - thanks for the info! It makes sense now Smile

Do you happen to know what huhti and touko mean for April and May? I've never been able to find those out.

Hobbit/LOTR cartoons & humor: http://www.sarahbor.com/


Ilmatar
Rohan


Jan 9 2016, 6:21pm

Post #17 of 23 (1748 views)
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Glad to be of service :) [In reply to] Can't Post

huhti = huhta has to do with the slash-and-burn agriculture. The word huhta meant the large stretches of coniferous forests that were cut down during this month, to be burned in summer when they had dried up.

touko = an ancient Finno-Ugric word that meant 'spring.' Usually associated with toukotyöt = 'spring work' that included all kinds of tasks carried out in the fields and forests that were begun during this month - sowing the grain and so forth. For farmers May is still the 'the month of spring work' and the word toukotyöt is in use.

(I don't know all of these so am using some Finnish internet sources to make sure... Smile)

Apologies for Cirashala for the thread hijacking Tongue - hopefully some further weather and climate discussion is still to happen in this thread!.


Sarahbor
Lorien


Jan 9 2016, 7:17pm

Post #18 of 23 (1743 views)
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Kiitos again! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks! I've been wanting to know that for awhile. And yes, sorry for hijacking the thread...the language nerd in me kinda went off on a tangent Blush

Hobbit/LOTR cartoons & humor: http://www.sarahbor.com/


Cirashala
Valinor


Jan 10 2016, 2:54pm

Post #19 of 23 (1714 views)
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There's a wee bit [In reply to] Can't Post

of mist on the water, but mostly it's toward the right of the pic out around the farm fields in the distance Wink

Our river also gets very foggy, but you can't see it in this pic (that lake serves as the headwaters for the river I'm talking about). When you cross a bridge or are on the freeway (think German autobahn but with speed limits) as it runs alongside the river, it can get pretty foggy.



Cirashala
Valinor


Jan 10 2016, 2:57pm

Post #20 of 23 (1710 views)
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lol [In reply to] Can't Post

no problem with the hijacking Tongue

I found the monthly designations quite interesting, in fact (though in all honesty, I AM still hoping for an answer to the climate of the various regions of ME Wink).

It's all good Cool



DanielLB
Immortal


Jan 12 2016, 11:58am

Post #21 of 23 (1669 views)
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Brief answer ... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I know it seems to be a bit odd for me to be debating weather, but I was re-reading the part in Queer Lodgings of The Hobbit where they were riding north to the elven gate, and noticed something odd.

Apparently, though it was only mid-late July, there was an "autumnal mist" one of those mornings.


I only have time for a brief answer, unfortunately. Frown

I think the clue to why there is fog is already in the sentence:

Quote
There was an autumn-like mist white upon the ground and the air was chill, but soon the sun rose red in the East and the mists vanished, and while the shadows were still long they were off again.


It's not important that the Elven Gate/Mirkwood would have a continental summer climate (warm, dry, and humid). Yes, it would be the hottest time of the year for this region of Middle-earth, but for whatever reason, the weather on that morning was cold. And that is a perfect state for fog to form.

This sounds like a case of radiation fog*, which occurs on a clear night with light winds. Radiation (just think of energy, not the radioactive stuff) from the ground escapes out to space, the ground cools and, in turn, cools the air in contact with it. On an absolutely still night, condensation will occur on the ground to form dew. With slight air movement, sufficient condensation forms on minute particles in the air to form minute droplets of water = mist/fog. As soon as the sun rose, the stability of the air changed and the fog cleared. Because Summer nights are fairly short in this part of Middle-earth, there may not have been enough time for the cooling to create thick fog (since the ground starts by being warm), hence why mist is only formed. (The only difference between mist and fog is the visibility).

Odd? Probably not. The summer climate is hot, but this summer weather was cold.

*See here for more information - Fog on the Barrow-downs.

Tolkien also says "autumn-like". He's probably referring to the autumn-like fog on the UK/Shire, rather than of the local conditions.


Quote
Yet I wonder- wouldn't weather patterns have been very different than European weather patterns now, due to shifting oceans and a difference in mountain range locations and such?


I'm no paleoclimatologist, but (ignoring various ice ages) the current continental configuration has been the same for 20-30,000 years.


DanielLB
Immortal


Jan 12 2016, 12:05pm

Post #22 of 23 (1664 views)
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Coastal fog is very common in summer. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I have been in thick mist walking on the Cornish coast path in August though.


When you get warm air blowing over the relative cool sea, coastal fog is wide-spread across the Cornish peninsula (and, of course, elsewhere across the British Isles). Come to think of it, I think I've been in Cornwall in May/June/July-time with coastal fog.


DanielLB
Immortal


Jan 12 2016, 12:11pm

Post #23 of 23 (1663 views)
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Sources of nuclei. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Where the dwarves are at is so far inland, with large mountain ranges between them and coastal areas, that anything maritime (short of the Anduin itself, which is freshwater not saltwater) would not affect them nearly as much as it would affect you.


Fog can form at lower humidity levels if there are a really large amount of minute particles (nuclei) in the air for the water to condense on to (e.g. salt). As you say, it is far too inland for salt condensation nuclei. But what about dust particles, aerosols, or pollutants? Even organic spores are known to promote droplet growth. Maybe the morning mist has something to do with Mirkwood?

 
 

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