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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 6 2016, 11:20am
Post #1 of 21
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**LOTR Read-through Book IV, Chapter 1: The Taming of Smeagol Part 3:Frodo and Smeagol reach an understanding
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Gollum climbs down a cliff ‘finding crevices and holds that no hobbit could ever have seen or used’. Wow. Let’s speculate about the physical changes to Gollum, assuming he started out as a hobbit in physical appearance. They have practical use (in this scene, certainly) They do a good job of making him repulsive (in appearance and in behaviour too), and in fantasy evil = visually repulsive a lot (except for female villians, where there's an evil = vampy trope as well) . Are these changes caused by his long association with the Ring? The Great Rings (say both Gandalf and Galadriel give power according to each possessor’s ‘stature’ (or ‘measure’): has the Ring shaped Gollum’s body appropriately for his long life underground with the goblins?
Sam plans to ‘have a word’ with Gollum, and requires rescue by Frodo. Now in a position to kill Gollum if he wishes, Frodo hears ‘quite plainly but far off, voices out of the past’ - his discussion with Gandalf about how Gollum deserves pity, even if he deserves death.
We are explicitly invited to compare Frodo’s decision to kill/spare Gollum with the choice Bilbo made - well, go on then, compare... 
Is Frodo just remembering an earlier conversation vividly but in a natural way, or is he being influenced by somebody/something?
Gollum offers to help find the way to Mordor, and both denies and admits that he is being drawn back there himself. I don't think we readers are supposed to believe this denial any more that Frodo does. Gollum attempts escape and Frodo decides that he will bind Gollum with an oath. Gollum wants to swear on the Precious, Frodo refuses this but will let him swear by the Precious -
‘swearing on’ vs. ‘swearing by’ - can anyone help me with this distinction generally and in this particular case? I pick up that Gollum wants to see the Precious, but I think there is more significance than this....? Why shouldn't Gollum see The Precious, BTW - I supposed that he might go mad and try to seize it and have to be killed in self defence, but are there other reasons?
At what point did you see Gollum as anything other than completely evil (on your first experience of the story, before you have spoilerz from previous experience)? had you already been persuaded of this by Gandalf's compassion for him, or, like Frodo did you need to see him to pity him? Or, like Sam, are you as yet deeply uncertain about there being any 'good in him'?
What is the importance of this arrangement Frodo and Gollum/Smeagol make? The obvious answer is that probably only Smeagol could lead them successfully into Mordor. And clearly we have to get Gollum on scene for his final intervention at Mt. Doom, and recruiting him is ONE way of achieving that. But I suspect that there are other importances - do you? Would you like to suggest or discuss some?
~~~~~~
The Reading Room read-through of The Two Towers Book IV has started!
Two chapters of our Book IV read-through still need volunteers to read them - see http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=887613#887613
If you are potentially interested in leading, but not sure what leading a chapter involves, see here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=884122#884122
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 6 2016, 11:42am
Post #2 of 21
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(I did originally plan this as part 4, but now I think it goes better as a subthread right here).
At this point I would Like to unveil a piece of equipment which we have built in the NoWizard Workshops especially for this read-through. Introducing..... the Gollumeter!. Expensively customized from a standard barometer (you should see the bar bill those dwarves ran up!), the prototype Mk. I Gollumeter measures Gollum/Smeagol’s current balance- from Very Gollum to Very Smeagol. As with a barometer, the direction in which the needle is moving can be as informative as the current setting. It's purpose-built to discuss How much Gollum and how much Smeagol are we seeing in this chapter? And what causes any transitions?
(caption; The picture shows a 'Gollumeter', which is a barometer modified so as to show how much Gollum and how much Smeagol we currently have. The standard wording on a barometer is modified as follows: 'Stormy' becomes 'Very Gollum'; 'Rain' becomes 'Gollum'; 'Change' remains 'Change'; 'Fair' becomes 'Smeagol' and 'Very Dry' becomes 'Very Smeagol'.)
Please feel free to give the Gollumeter a tap and say how you think it’s set in this chapter, and which way it is headed - up towards sunny Smeagol, or down towards stormy ‘Very Gollum’. We can do that in later chapters too, if you like - the dwarves in my shed are hoping to organize a Kickstarter campaign to make these, though currently the only thing kicking them is their hangovers.
My test Gollumeter readings for this chapter are as follows: I think we start off on “Gollum” as we first see him descending the cliff. It’s all pretty angry - but also there’s some self-pity, and I’m not sure whether that is a Gollum-ish thing or a Smeagol-ish one. What do you think - is the self-pity actually a neutral thing; a starting point for Gollumish anger or Smeagolish repentance, perhaps? The mercury rises then, I think and the Gollumeter goes through “Change!” - appropriately enough that happens when Frodo offers Gollum the possibility of change. When do you judge Smeagol to show his first signs of appearance? (My own thought is it is when Frodo forces Smeagol to realise he's being dragged back to Mordor, but you are free to disagree!)
I think we have an outlook of “Smeagol” by the end of the chapter. But as with a barometer, perhaps a quick change on the Gollumeter isn’t likely to introduce a period of settled weather. Lets tap the Gollumeter and see what happens as we read through
~~~~~~
The Reading Room read-through of The Two Towers Book IV has started!
Two chapters of our Book IV read-through still need volunteers to read them - see http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=887613#887613
If you are potentially interested in leading, but not sure what leading a chapter involves, see here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=884122#884122
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jan 6 2016, 1:43pm
Post #3 of 21
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And when I google "Gollumeter," you're entry #3 (out of 4 total).
(Will have to reply later today; just sneaking a peek at your post during a work meeting now.)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 6 2016, 3:46pm
Post #5 of 21
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Gollum offers to help find the way to Mordor, and both denies and admits that he is being drawn back there himself. I don't think we readers are supposed to believe this denial any more that Frodo does. Gollum attempts escape and Frodo decides that he will bind Gollum with an oath. Gollum wants to swear on the Precious, Frodo refuses this but will let him swear by the Precious -
‘swearing on’ vs. ‘swearing by’ - can anyone help me with this distinction generally and in this particular case? I pick up that Gollum wants to see the Precious, but I think there is more significance than this....? Why shouldn't Gollum see The Precious, BTW - I supposed that he might go mad and try to seize it and have to be killed in self defence, but are there other reasons?
You have it exactly right. It is perilous enough to seal an oath with the Ring, but swearing on the Precious would entail allowing Sméagol to physically lay a hand on it. This would impose too much temptation on the wretch and drive him again to madness.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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enanito
Rohan
Jan 6 2016, 8:34pm
Post #6 of 21
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Clenched hand shaking at the East
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I love trying to visualize the scene where Gollum shakes his clenched hand towards the East with a declaration of "We wont!... Not for you!". A very Smeagol-esque moment. Even after all the years of being enslaved by the power of the Ring, and within eyesight of Mordor in the distance, he is defiant. And I think it's all coming from him and not really from the mercy Frodo has offered. A show of defiance like that has to come from deep within, I can't imagine sparing his life would cause Gollum to suddenly rebel openly like that. Mercy might make him grovelly and smarmy towards his benefactor, but it's a pretty big jump from that to challenging the power of Sauron.
That's my point where I see a big swing on the Gollumeter towards Smeagol.
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enanito
Rohan
Jan 6 2016, 8:49pm
Post #7 of 21
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Seems a bit similar to the pull Pippen felt towards the Palantir. Once he physically touched the stone, he was essentially plugged directly into Sauron's power conduits, and could not escape until the power let him go.
So not only was it a danger that Gollum might go made from Ring-lust and try to seize it, but I think if Gollum touched the Ring, Sauron in some way may have been able to sense/detect things in Gollum that he could not perceive when worn by Frodo (or Sam later on). Obviously the interactive nature of the Palantir is not duplicated by the Ring, but a similar danger might exist.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 6 2016, 8:57pm
Post #8 of 21
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So not only was it a danger that Gollum might go made from Ring-lust and try to seize it, but I think if Gollum touched the Ring, Sauron in some way may have been able to sense/detect things in Gollum that he could not perceive when worn by Frodo (or Sam later on). Obviously the interactive nature of the Palantir is not duplicated by the Ring, but a similar danger might exist.
I'm not sure about that last bit and I was not suggesting that, but I suppose that it is possible that Sauron might have sensed their presence. Certainly putting on the Ring increased that possibility much more; although, that does not seem to have happened when Samwise used the Ring to follow the captured Frodo and the Orcs.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 6 2016, 8:58pm)
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Jan 7 2016, 12:44am
Post #9 of 21
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The Frodo-Gollum/Smeagol Accord
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What is the importance of this arrangement Frodo and Gollum/Smeagol make? The obvious answer is that probably only Smeagol could lead them successfully into Mordor. And clearly we have to get Gollum on scene for his final intervention at Mt. Doom, and recruiting him is ONE way of achieving that. But I suspect that there are other importances - do you? Would you like to suggest or discuss some?
Yes, your points are certainly true. There also seems to be a "potential redemption of Gollum" thing going on here. This seems important on two levels: Gandalf appeared to think Gollum was important, somehow--important enough to commend Bilbo's pity for him, and of course Frodo usually sides with Gandalf. And Frodo seems to be impelled to believe that there is good in Gollum and/or that he can become whole again, simply because to keep going he must believe that the Ring will not wholly overcome his own personality.
The first I think is self-explanatory as Frodo hears the "voices out of the past." Here are the relevant passages in this section for the second point. (IIFC, there are more as we progress through the story, but I can't recall them to mind at the moment! Hopefully as we go along my memory will be jogged.  )
"Poor, poor Sméagol, he went away long ago. They took his Precious, and he's lost now."
"Perhaps we'll find him again, if you come with us," said Frodo.
and, as Sam observes Frodo and Gollum together:
Yet the two were in some way akin and not alien: they could reach one another's minds.
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Jan 7 2016, 12:50am
Post #10 of 21
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I love the juicy irony in Gollum's words as he swears by the Precious: "I will serve the master of the Precious!"
Now which master do you suppose he meant, deep down?
Do you think the Ring, or something else (or Something Else), held Gollum to this promise, however it was meant?
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 7 2016, 9:35am
Post #11 of 21
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"We wont!... Not for you!" - thanks for highlighting this!
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I love trying to visualize the scene where Gollum shakes his clenched hand towards the East with a declaration of "We wont!... Not for you!". A very Smeagol-esque moment. Even after all the years of being enslaved by the power of the Ring, and within eyesight of Mordor in the distance, he is defiant. And I think it's all coming from him and not really from the mercy Frodo has offered. A show of defiance like that has to come from deep within, I can't imagine sparing his life would cause Gollum to suddenly rebel openly like that. Mercy might make him grovelly and smarmy towards his benefactor, but it's a pretty big jump from that to challenging the power of Sauron.
I think you're quite right - if we were thinking that Gollum had become Sauron's servant, we'd have to change our minds after this.
I also see this as Smeagol being rebellious. But I wonder whether this isn't simultaneously a Very Gollum moment? Gollum (I think) wants the Ring back for his own. If so, then the prospect of Sauron getting the Ring is a threat over which Smeagol and Gollum can unite.
Perhaps the Gollumeter needs a modification - a setting at 6 O'clock on the dial that reads "Gollum and Smeagol in agreement"?
~~~~~~
The Reading Room read-through of The Two Towers Book IV has started!
Two chapters of our Book IV read-through still need volunteers to read them - see http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=887613#887613
If you are potentially interested in leading, but not sure what leading a chapter involves, see here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=884122#884122
Links to earlier posts in this read-through:
week starts # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
03-Jan-16 # I # The Taming of Smeagol # noWizardme Part 1: http://goo.gl/wvyAOx 2: http://goo.gl/6ks0JV 3: http://goo.gl/l0iuEz
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 7 2016, 9:53am
Post #12 of 21
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"I will serve the master of the Precious!" - words worth close scrutiny!
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I love the juicy irony in Gollum's words as he swears by the Precious: "I will serve the master of the Precious!"
Now which master do you suppose he meant, deep down?
Thanks for highlighting this! Its not clear to me whether this is merely Gollum's elliptical way of speaking, or whether the commitment he gives is very carefully worded - weasel words to give him a loophole.
He could be taken to be swearing loyalty to Frodo - or to Sauron. Or (and this is my interpretation) he may be swearing loyalty to whosoever is the current Ringbearer (with the Gollum part of him intending to make himself the Ringbearer as soon as possible).
The promise seems to prevent Gollum from attacking Frodo directly, but of course it doesn't prevent him from leading Frodo into a dangerous situation and then being out of earshot when Frodo and Sam call for help. (The detail of how this promise does or does not influence Gollum's actions is something we should probably leave for discussion in the Shelob's Lair and Mount Doom chapters and other occasions when this becomes relevant. But I think it's appropriate the discuss the terms of the agreement that Frodo and Gollum think they are making at this point.)
Is Frodo unwise to accept such an ambiguous form of words, do you think?
Maybe Frodo is at a cultural disadvantage here? This is not a situation where he can make everything "very clear and correct (according to the legal customs of hobbits, which demand among other things seven signatures of witnesses in red ink)." Would a character from a culture more used to verbal oaths (Eomer or Eowyn say, or Faramir or even Aragorn) accept this response from Gollum?
Or does Gollum already plan to break any oath he makes as soon as convenient, making it pointless to try and extract a clearer form of words from him?
~~~~~~
The Reading Room read-through of The Two Towers Book IV has started!
Two chapters of our Book IV read-through still need volunteers to read them - see http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=887613#887613
If you are potentially interested in leading, but not sure what leading a chapter involves, see here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=884122#884122
Links to earlier posts in this read-through:
week starts # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
03-Jan-16 # I # The Taming of Smeagol # noWizardme Part 1: http://goo.gl/wvyAOx 2: http://goo.gl/6ks0JV 3: http://goo.gl/l0iuEz
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jan 7 2016, 8:41pm
Post #13 of 21
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The best of all possible Gollums
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But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne;
Nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
-Matthew 5:34-37
Gollum climbs down a cliff ‘finding crevices and holds that no hobbit could ever have seen or used’. Wow. Let’s speculate about the physical changes to Gollum, assuming he started out as a hobbit in physical appearance. They have practical use (in this scene, certainly) They do a good job of making him repulsive (in appearance and in behaviour too), and in fantasy evil = visually repulsive a lot (except for female villians, where there's an evil = vampy trope as well) . Are these changes caused by his long association with the Ring?
One is reminded of how Satan’s appearance degenerates from angelic beauty to frog-like repulsiveness in Milton’s Paradise Lost:
So saying, on [Gabriel] led his radiant files,
Dazzling the moon; these to the bower direct
In search of whom they sought: [Satan] there they found
Squat like a toad, close at the ear of Eve….
The Great Rings (say both Gandalf and Galadriel give power according to each possessor’s ‘stature’ (or ‘measure’): has the Ring shaped Gollum’s body appropriately for his long life underground with the goblins?
I think it’s more the effect of unnatural immortality upon a mortal body. The forms of Great Ring wearing Elves and Maiar are pretty much unaffected (unless one goes nuclear), whereas the forms of mortal Men and Hobbits are. Indeed the description of the Nazgul’s paleness as well as their “haggard hands” seem to echo that of Gollum.
Sam plans to ‘have a word’ with Gollum, and requires rescue by Frodo. Now in a position to kill Gollum if he wishes, Frodo hears ‘quite plainly but far off, voices out of the past’ - his discussion with Gandalf about how Gollum deserves pity, even if he deserves death.
We are explicitly invited to compare Frodo’s decision to kill/spare Gollum with the choice Bilbo made - well, go on then, compare...
'The wood was full of the rumour of him, dreadful tales even among beasts and birds. The Woodmen said that there was some new terror abroad, a ghost that drank blood. It climbed trees to find nests; it crept into holes to find the young; it slipped through windows to find cradles.’
-The Shadow of the Past
His worst mischief was done.
'Yes, alas! Through him the Enemy has learned that the One has been found again. He knows where Isildur fell. He knows where Gollum found his ring. He knows that it is a Great Ring, for it gave long life. He knows that it is not one of the Three, for they have never been lost, and they endure no evil. He knows that it is not one of the Seven, or the Nine, for they are accounted for. He knows that it is the One. And he has at last heard, I think, of hobbits and the Shire.
'The Shire – he may be seeking for it now, if he has not already found out where it lies. Indeed, Frodo, I fear that he may even think that the long-unnoticed name of Baggins has become important.'
-ibid
‘It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo. Be sure that he took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began his ownership of the Ring so. With Pity.'
-ibid
Of course that kinda ignores all the hurt caused by letting Gollum live, from the babies in cradles, to Gollum’s guard in Mirkwood, to the Rangers guarding the Shire, to who knows who else. Bilbo could have saved a lot of hurt by killing Gollum.
As for Frodo, Gollum delays him by taking him through the Dead Marshes, makes Faramir initially suspicious, betrays him to Shelob, tries to kill him and Sam, and bites off his finger and steals the One Ring.
Without Gollum Frodo would have given up on the marshes, turned south, and encountered Faramir a lot sooner, still been told about Cirith Ungol by Faramir, Shelob probably wouldn’t have been waiting for them, and while Gollum wouldn’t have been there to bite off Frodo’s finger and fall into the lava at Oroduin I’m sure good old Sam would have come up with something, especially since he wouldn’t have been attacked by Gollum and delayed while Frodo was busy claiming the ring.
The entire justification for letting Gollum live seems to be a very “a posteriori” argument to me, but what do I know?
Is Frodo just remembering an earlier conversation vividly but in a natural way, or is he being influenced by somebody/something?
No doubt. The Dark Lord and the Ring may be One, but Gollum and the Ring are surely less than Two.
Gollum offers to help find the way to Mordor, and both denies and admits that he is being drawn back there himself. I don't think we readers are supposed to believe this denial any more that Frodo does. Gollum attempts escape and Frodo decides that he will bind Gollum with an oath. Gollum wants to swear on the Precious, Frodo refuses this but will let him swear by the Precious -
‘swearing on’ vs. ‘swearing by’ - can anyone help me with this distinction generally and in this particular case?
Well, in ancient Rome (in imitation of certain higher primates) two men would hold each other’s testicles while making an oath. (Hence “testimony.”) Obviously such swearing *on* their testes places both men at great risk. Similarly, swearing *on* a religious artifact (like a sacred idol or a holy book) risks getting very nasty retribution since one is physically holding a direct conduit to the divine.
As for swearing *by*, one is usually swearing by something that one isn’t touching or maybe even can’t touch, or isn’t in their possession, or might not even exist. So a connection might not be there thus there might be no risk in oath-breaking.
In a word, it might be safer, thus easier, to break an oath “sworn by” something than “sworn on” something.
I pick up that Gollum wants to see the Precious, but I think there is more significance than this....?
Probably. Tolkien’s like that.
Why shouldn't Gollum see The Precious, BTW - I supposed that he might go mad and try to seize it and have to be killed in self defence, but are there other reasons?
There’s also what the Ring might do if it sees Gollum.
At what point did you see Gollum as anything other than completely evil (on your first experience of the story, before you have spoilerz from previous experience)?
The baby eating sealed it for me.
had you already been persuaded of this by Gandalf's compassion for him, or, like Frodo did you need to see him to pity him?
Pity necessitates identifying with someone. I just can’t identify with a baby eater.
Or, like Sam, are you as yet deeply uncertain about there being any 'good in him'?
Unfortunately I know a few Gollums. Best to keep away from them.
What is the importance of this arrangement Frodo and Gollum/Smeagol make?
It buys time. Like saying “Good doggie!” while you’re feeling around for a rock.
The obvious answer is that probably only Smeagol could lead them successfully into Mordor.
Ironically Gollum *doesn’t* lead them into Mordor. He leads them into Cirith Ungol, which Faramir could have easily given them directions to. The hobbits find their way into Mordor themselves.
And clearly we have to get Gollum on scene for his final intervention at Mt. Doom, and recruiting him is ONE way of achieving that.
I’m sure the ever resourceful Sam would have figured out something less drastic than biting off Frodo’s finger.
But I suspect that there are other importances - do you?
I can see several axes that Tolkien is grinding.
Would you like to suggest or discuss some?
And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be.
-Max Ehrmann, Desiderata (1927)
“And most generally there is something about everything that you can be glad about, if you keep hunting long enough to find it.”
-Eleanor H. Porter, Pollyanna (1913)
"Although I've been mishandled by a demon, I'm determined to remain optimistic, no matter what!"
-Alan Moore, The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen (1999),
Pangloss sometimes said to Candide:
"There is a concatenation of events in this best of all possible worlds: for if you had not been kicked out of a magnificent castle for love of Miss Cunégonde: if you had not been put into the Inquisition: if you had not walked over America: if you had not stabbéd the Baron: if you had not lost all your sheep from the fine country of El Dorado: you would not be here eating preserved citrons and pistachio-nuts."
"All that is very well," answered Candide, "but let us cultivate our garden."
-Voltaire, Candide (1759)
******************************************
Fimbrethil, Warrior Entwife
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jan 9 2016, 3:20pm
Post #15 of 21
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I will help myself to the Precious
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I think Gollum left himself a loophole, as you say, so he could serve the Master of the Precious when that meant he was master again.
But Smeagol had a genuine change of heart and really did serve Frodo as his master, so you would have needed both halves of Gollum/Smeagol to sign up on any oaths, and Gollum would break his anyway.
This is the remarkable change in Gollum: he goes from baby-eater (I share Darkstone's revulsion at that one) to a reasonably faithful servant in that he didn't try and kill them in their sleep every night, which was what I expected on first read. And if Sam hadn't been such a jerk to Gollum, maybe Smeagol would have grown stronger.
I attribute this change in Gollum to him being thrown back in with his own kind for the first time in centuries. I think there is something irrepressibly hobbity about hobbits that resurrected the decency in him, but of course it had centuries of corruption to contend with.
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Jan 11 2016, 7:30pm
Post #16 of 21
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The baby eating sealed it for me.
We only hear about this as a rumor. Are you quite sure it's true?
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 12 2016, 4:09pm
Post #18 of 21
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Yes, that is where I got the idea!
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...and first I should pause to recommend "IamPierremenard's" solo LOTR read-through all over again. He set himself the task of transcribe exactly one page of LOTR per day. If he happened upon a song, he set it to a popular tune of the 1990s - approximately - and recorded the result of him singing it and playing the ukelele. His choices of tune are sometimes humorous, and sometimes insightful (e.g. Galadriel to Frou Frou's song "Let Go").
He has a "Gollum meter" but sadly I couldn't figure out how it worked - the answer is somewhere in his blog I suppose, but couldn't find it. Hence my own take, the Gollumeter.
But it would have been nice to credit my forerunner here - thanks for reminding me!
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The Reading Room read-through of The Two Towers Book IV has started!
Just one chapter left needing a leader: 07-Feb-16 # VI # The Forbidden Pool # Could you do it?
If you are potentially interested in leading, but not sure what leading a chapter involves, see here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=884122#884122
Links to earlier posts in this read-through:
week starts # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
03-Jan-16 # I # The Taming of Smeagol # noWizardme Part 1: http://goo.gl/wvyAOx 2: http://goo.gl/6ks0JV 3: http://goo.gl/l0iuEz 4: http://goo.gl/7ket5o
10-Jan-16 # II # The Passage of the Marshes # Oliphaunt Part 1: http://goo.gl/eUEV4u
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jan 12 2016, 4:11pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 12 2016, 4:20pm
Post #19 of 21
(2796 views)
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<Video game style fanfare> meaningless achievement achieved!
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Google has worked out this is the number one place to send enquirers after Gollumeters. Which is legitimate, probably, as it will do searchers no harm. These are the Gollumeters you are looking for, trooper.
[Caption - screenshot showing that we are #1 for this search term. Time for Fist-pumps etc. to celebrate this wholly meaningless achievement]
~~~~~~
The Reading Room read-through of The Two Towers Book IV has started!
Just one chapter left needing a leader: 07-Feb-16 # VI # The Forbidden Pool # Could you do it?
If you are potentially interested in leading, but not sure what leading a chapter involves, see here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=884122#884122
Links to earlier posts in this read-through:
week starts # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
03-Jan-16 # I # The Taming of Smeagol # noWizardme Part 1: http://goo.gl/wvyAOx 2: http://goo.gl/6ks0JV 3: http://goo.gl/l0iuEz 4: http://goo.gl/7ket5o
10-Jan-16 # II # The Passage of the Marshes # Oliphaunt Part 1: http://goo.gl/eUEV4u
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jan 12 2016, 9:55pm
Post #20 of 21
(2788 views)
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Fist pumps indeed for the recognition of the Gollumeter!
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If only it had been available for Christmas sales, think of what a great stocking stuffer it would have made.
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sador
Half-elven
Jan 14 2016, 11:57am
Post #21 of 21
(2757 views)
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"I will serve the Master of the Precious"
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Let’s speculate about the physical changes to Gollum, assuming he started out as a hobbit in physical appearance.
Well, he is a Stoor, not a Harfoot. Might this make a difference?
But yes, you are right. This kind of comments make us aware of how de-humanised (actually, de-hobbitised) Gollum is - which in a non-visual medium needs reinforcing.
And Tolkien does a great job - I think there are far more human-like descriptions of Gollum in the book, but the readers always views him as different.
And in a roundabout way, this makes it easier for the modern reader to empthise with him. The poor creature is so abhorred already!
Are these changes caused by his long association with the Ring?
As a matter of fact, there are not so many changes. And such as tthere are, I would rather attribute to adaptation to his life of stealth and sneaking.
Has the Ring shaped Gollum’s body appropriately for his long life underground with the gblins?
Oh, you meant whether the Ring helped him adapt? I would say not; but it did make him near-indestructable, so he was able to adapt.
We are explicitly invited to compare Frodo’s decision to kill/spare Gollum with the choice Bilbo made - well, go on then, compare...
For one thing, Bilbo did not try to second-guess Gandalf's wish, and was already attacked.
But on the other hand, simply escaping Gollum was an option for him, which Frodo does not have.
Is Frodo just remembering an earlier conversation vividly but in a natural way, or is he being influenced by somebody/something?
Seeing how in the previous chapter (by which I mean The Breaking of the Fellowship) he was ever trying to think what Gandalf would have advised him, it is only natural that he summons up the memory himself, or that it was near the edge of his conciousness for several days.
But the supernatural possibility is also there.
‘swearing on’ vs. ‘swearing by’ - can anyone help me with this distinction generally and in this particular case?
Swearing on is stronger. As Darkstone brought a few examples (although he had omitted Genesis 24:2).
For a similar distinction, see Othello 4:1.
Why shouldn't Gollum see The Precious, BTW - I supposed that he might go mad and try to seize it and have to be killed in self defence, but are there other reasons?
Some things must be kept concealed.
(Jackson had to show the Ring dangling every second scene, which I thought was way too much. What do you think?)
Although Frodo's words seem to imply that swearing on the Precious would be too strong for Smeagol to break, and he wants to leave him a loophole. Unless he is trying to manipulate Gollum into swearing without seeing the Precious, this seems to make little sense.
At what point did you see Gollum as anything other than completely evil (on your first experience of the story, before you have spoilerz from previous experience)?
I don't remember. As a kid, it was probably pretty early.
Or, like Sam, are you as yet deeply uncertain about there being any 'good in him'?
Let's put it this way: at the present I don't think he is any good. He is the only 'human' evil character we see, and it is easier to hate faceless, non-human evil. But there are humans who become immersed in evil - and Gollum is one.
What is the importance of this arrangement Frodo and Gollum/Smeagol make? Have you not that Smeagol swears to serve "the Master of the Precious"?
This is clearly not Frodo; it could only mean Sauron (even if Gollum thinks in the next chapter that if he takes it, he might become the master - but Frodo has no such ambition). Please note that whenever Gollum refers to Sauron in this chapter and the next, he calls him "He" while Frodo uses "he" - obviously, an authorial device, as when they speak there is no difference.
So if Frodo accepts this oath, he must either be simple, or with an advanced case of hubris. I vote for the former, but am not sure.
And after swearing to erve the Master of the Precious, Gollum says he will never let Him have it. Quite a contradiction! But in his way he does fulfill both parts.
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