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Frodo forgives Gollum and encourages Sam to do so

Kim Cates
Registered User

Nov 28 2015, 7:45pm

Post #1 of 12 (1440 views)
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Frodo forgives Gollum and encourages Sam to do so Can't Post

Moderator - please feel free to move if this is not in the correct section.

One of my fave parts of the book and I think a central lesson was at Mt. Doom when Frodo tells Sam - let us forgive Gollum for if not for him I would have never completed the task. I'm sorry it was left off of the movies. This would have been one of the several valuable moral lessons - the lesson of forgiveness and the acknowledgment by Frodo (and a reinforcement of the allusion of it by Gandalf to Frodo in Moria) of Gollum's necessity in the accomplishment of the destruction of the ring. It would have added an extra layer of humility for Sam if he chose to forgive Gollum who he seemed to despise throughout the movie and a reinforcement that this was not just about Frodo but that each person had a part to play signaling a Divine Strategist working for good behind the scenes.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Nov 29 2015, 11:56am

Post #2 of 12 (1381 views)
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Welcome to the Reading Room, Kim Cates: a matter of narrative urgency, I think [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that's an interesting thing to discuss (and I think this is definitely the place to post it).

I suspect the issue is one of narrative pace. Frodo encourages Sam to forgive Gollum right at the end of Mount Doom (Chapter 3 of Book VI) At that point, the two of them might reasonably assume their own deaths are imminent ('the end of all things'). But we leave the two of them at that dramatic point to cut back to Aragorn's army, which seemingly is just about to be overwhelmed by Sauron's forces, before the final 'eucatastrophe' of Sauron's downfall. So this is still part of the climax. Maybe Tolkien just didn't want to slow the narrative at this exciting point, to tell us what Sam says in reply to Frodo? Perhaps he felt he's made his point, & that we could be left to infer how Sam reacts?

As far as I can remember (but maybe others can remember better) we don't find out how Sam feels about Gollum later. My own inclination - for what it is worth- is to assume that Sam took Frodo's point.

It's interesting to think about how easy Frodo found that understanding and forgiveness once it was clear that he wasn't to die in his quest, and was rather to live on, permanently damaged by his adventures. Perhaps a deathbed act of forgiveness is easier than (or differently hard to; or not the same as) living that forgiveness? In 'letter 246' Tolkien discusses Frodo's psychological (and arguably philosophical and spiritual) struggles after returning to the Shire.


Quote
I think it is clear on reflection to an attentive reader that when his dark times came upon him and he was conscious of being 'wounded by knife sting and tooth and a long burden’ it was not only nightmare memories of past horrors that afflicted him, but also unreasoning self-reproach: he saw himself and all that he [had] done as a broken failure. 'Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same, for I shall not be the same.’ That was actually a temptation out of the Dark, a last flicker of pride: desire to have returned as a 'hero’, not content with being a mere instrument of good. And it was mixed with another temptation, blacker and yet (in a sense) more merited, for however that may be explained, he had not in fact cast away the Ring by a voluntary act: he was tempted to regret its destruction, and still to desire it. 'It is gone for ever, and now all is dark and empty’, he said as he wakened from his sickness in 1420.

Tolkien - Letter 246
(The numbering of letters we often use here refers to how Tolkien's letters are numbered in the collection "The Letters of JRR Tolkien" edited by Humphrey Carpenter. That, BTW is a very interesting read for anyone interested in Tolkien's works and his thoughts. )


So it is interesting to speculate how Frodo would have felt about Gollum at such times - all forgiveness, or some bitterness and even envy? What do you think, O Fellowship of the Room?

~~~~~~
Two Towers Read-through Book IV: Schedule and appeal for volunteers to lead the chapters which are as yet unclaimed: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886370#886370

The Book III read-through links!:
week started # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
13-Sep-15 # I # The Departure of Boromir # MirielCelebel http://goo.gl/zpn7Rg
20-Sep-15 # II # The Riders of Rohan # Brethil (Part 1) http://goo.gl/yKNv7E (2) http://goo.gl/mxesBG
27-Sep-15 # III # The Uruk-hai # cats16 http://goo.gl/LUWJi1
04-Oct-15 # IV # Treebeard # Mikah http://goo.gl/2CqCXS
11-Oct-15 # V # The White Rider # Entwife Wandlimb  http://goo.gl/VXb2Ni
18-Oct-15 # VI # The King of the Golden Hall # squire (Part 1) http://goo.gl/cpEvnI, (2) http://goo.gl/BBTzvR, (3) http://goo.gl/yN7QLq, (4) http://goo.gl/7726S3 (5) http://goo.gl/VC7Abc
25-Oct-15 # VII # Helm's Deep # arithmancer  (Part 1) http://goo.gl/E6gVUC, (2) http://goo.gl/5aRuq0
01-Nov-15 # VIII # The Road to Isengard # Darkstone (Part 1)http://goo.gl/rdE1xG (2) http://goo.gl/54rxDw (3)http://goo.gl/Y0ZDwz (4) http://goo.gl/XVgXCx (5) http://goo.gl/Ph0O7k
08-Nov-15 # IX # Flotsam and Jetsam # Enanito (Part 1) http://goo.gl/GddHbU (2) http://goo.gl/5Z6MQU
15-Nov-15 # X # The Voice of Saruman # jochenkeen  (Part 1) http://goo.gl/1voDsc (2)http://goo.gl/JONRh2 (3) http://goo.gl/EIeL6B
22-Nov-15 # XI # The Palantir # Elizabeth (Part 1) http://goo.gl/m4SYVO (2) http://goo.gl/7rB38s (3)http://goo.gl/cI7Vmt (4) http://goo.gl/KC4bkT


A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


squire
Half-elven


Nov 29 2015, 2:41pm

Post #3 of 12 (1376 views)
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How Frodo may have thought back to Gollum in later years [In reply to] Can't Post

It's an interesting question: how did Frodo think about Gollum in the times after his rescue from death in Mordor? As you say, we are given clues to Frodo's self-regard during his uneasy retirement in the Shire in the text itself (and as explicated by JRRT in the letter you cite). But those moments seem to be about Frodo thinking of himself and his lost Ring, not his lost doppelganger (evil twin, Gollum).

One thing I thought of is to look at how Frodo interacts with Grima in the showdown at Bag End. Think of Grima as the "Book III Smeagol" - the character most like Gollum in the part of the story that, as you remarked in another post today, is about Aragorn not Frodo. I have always thought that Frodo recognized this, when I read the following vignette. It comes just after Frodo, in his Gandalf-role, has destroyed Saruman's pride and evicted him from the Shire:
...Wormtongue hesitated, and then followed his master.
‘Wormtongue!’ called Frodo. ‘You need not follow him. I know of no evil you have done to me. You can have rest and food here for a while, until you are stronger and can go your own ways.’
Wormtongue halted and looked back at him, half prepared to stay.
- LotR VI.8

This reminds me of exchanges like these in Book IV, chapter 2. Here is where Frodo tries to get Gollum to eat the Elven way-bread and Gollum refuses:
‘I’m sorry,’ said Frodo; ‘but I can’t help you, I’m afraid. I think this food would do you good, if you would try. But perhaps you can’t even try, not yet anyway.'

Then Frodo tries to set Gollum free of his bond as guide, once they reach the Black Gate:
'Bring us to the Gate, and then I will not ask you to go further. Bring us to the Gate, and you may go where you wish - only not to our enemies.'

Now, by the end of the book Frodo had learned that Smeagol never really was capable of being healed by kindness. It hadn't worked out on the road to Mordor, because the power of the Ring was greater than any love Frodo could show. Here with Grima, I suspect that Frodo also already knew what Saruman reveals after Frodo extends his hand: that Grima too is utterly degraded by a lesser but still overwhelming force, the mock-Ring that was Saruman's lust for power. Yet Frodo tried anyway, knowing that to offer mercy in the face of evil is to redeem not just the sinner but the sinned-against. I suspect that is how he thought about Gollum, too, at the end of his life when the Quest was long over: forgiveness and understanding for another, even when he could not quite forgive or understand himself in the dark moments that Tolkien gives us a glimpse of.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Nov 29 2015, 2:58pm

Post #4 of 12 (1367 views)
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Great reply! Comparing Grima and Gollum is a very interesting idea! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~
Two Towers Read-through Book IV: Schedule and appeal for volunteers to lead the chapters which are as yet unclaimed: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886370#886370

The Book III read-through links!:
week started # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
13-Sep-15 # I # The Departure of Boromir # MirielCelebel http://goo.gl/zpn7Rg
20-Sep-15 # II # The Riders of Rohan # Brethil (Part 1) http://goo.gl/yKNv7E (2) http://goo.gl/mxesBG
27-Sep-15 # III # The Uruk-hai # cats16 http://goo.gl/LUWJi1
04-Oct-15 # IV # Treebeard # Mikah http://goo.gl/2CqCXS
11-Oct-15 # V # The White Rider # Entwife Wandlimb  http://goo.gl/VXb2Ni
18-Oct-15 # VI # The King of the Golden Hall # squire (Part 1) http://goo.gl/cpEvnI, (2) http://goo.gl/BBTzvR, (3) http://goo.gl/yN7QLq, (4) http://goo.gl/7726S3 (5) http://goo.gl/VC7Abc
25-Oct-15 # VII # Helm's Deep # arithmancer  (Part 1) http://goo.gl/E6gVUC, (2) http://goo.gl/5aRuq0
01-Nov-15 # VIII # The Road to Isengard # Darkstone (Part 1)http://goo.gl/rdE1xG (2) http://goo.gl/54rxDw (3)http://goo.gl/Y0ZDwz (4) http://goo.gl/XVgXCx (5) http://goo.gl/Ph0O7k
08-Nov-15 # IX # Flotsam and Jetsam # Enanito (Part 1) http://goo.gl/GddHbU (2) http://goo.gl/5Z6MQU
15-Nov-15 # X # The Voice of Saruman # jochenkeen  (Part 1) http://goo.gl/1voDsc (2)http://goo.gl/JONRh2 (3) http://goo.gl/EIeL6B
22-Nov-15 # XI # The Palantir # Elizabeth (Part 1) http://goo.gl/m4SYVO (2) http://goo.gl/7rB38s (3)http://goo.gl/cI7Vmt (4) http://goo.gl/KC4bkT


A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Kim Cates
Registered User

Nov 30 2015, 2:11am

Post #5 of 12 (1342 views)
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Instrument of the good - interesting choice of words [In reply to] Can't Post

I really like Tokien's word "not content with being an instrument of the good." He did appreciate Gollum but it does have to hurt that it wasn't him completing the task since he originally felt that was his destiny. That someone else has to complete what you could not - similar to Boromir in the movie. To find you have flaws in an area where you think you've got this is always surprising and disconcerting. Upon returning, it seems Frodo was suffering from PTSD - which makes me wonder whether Tolkien did also after the war. It's funny to me how in real life there are characters like Frodo who have trauma and have such a hard time and there are others like Sam who seemingly bounce back effortlessly. Though of course, it is hardly a fair comparison as Frodo was the ring bearer.

I like the word that Tolkien uses "instrument". Of whom? The Strategist who is unknown but always working quietly for good.in stark contract to Sauron.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Dec 1 2015, 11:49am

Post #6 of 12 (1312 views)
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War experiences of Frodo, Sam and Tolkien himself [In reply to] Can't Post

PTSD did not, of course, exist as a diagnosis in Tolkien's day. mental health support for veterans was minimal, I believe. There was a confusing condition known as 'Shell shock' but my understanding is that it's very existence was contentious - some figures in the military establishment confused it with 'cowardice'. There were very significant and damaging cultural taboos leading to denial of this whole medical area (as I believe there still are today).

There is a list of 'Some symptoms of trauma' on the website of this UK charity which assists today's warriors with their mental health problems http://www.combatstress.org.uk/ (lower on the page - scroll down). Frodo manifests several of these symptoms: I don't know about Tolkien.

Sam, of course survives with his Precious intact (it's Frodo; and later also his wife and kids and the Shire - the things that help him survive the eventual loss of Frodo). Sam does seem to get the fairytale ending - a Shire-sized version of Aragorn's ending (Sam's respected Mayor, husband and father; restorer of the Shire vs. Aragorn's instead of King, husband and father; restorer of the West). I do, however still agree with myself in this old post, which it might be helpful to quote here:


In Reply To
....from Two Towers (of herbs and stewed rabbit):

Quote

It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that be could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would really rather have stayed there in peace..."

It does sound pretty autobiographical ( a World War I experience of Tolkien's perhaps?) but also is universal. The passage is all the more effective for being a momentary interlude before Sam is disturbed by the ongoing battle- in particular, the enraged Oliphaunt.
If you imagine drafting it as something Sam says to Frodo (at the time, or " I've been thinking, Mr Frodo..." As they trudge along as captives. ) it doesn't work half so well. Or at least I cant do it (there could be several reasons for that!) but I'm sure Tolkien wouldn't put those words in Sams mouth- Sam speaks more plainly than that.
So, Another thing going on (for me) is the idea that maybe Sam didn't get to think much about the dead man at that moment, what with the Oliphaunt and all; but that the image lodged stubbornly in his consciousness, and replayed a lot over later years. That would chime with what combat vets have told me. The narrator reporting it lets us see the "distilled" version, which Sam might come to over the years.... Then snaps us right back into the moment with the Oliphaunt. I imagine Sam in later years being pressed for exciting War of the Ring tales- but the dead Southron comes to his mind these days more than the Orc he felled with a sturdy thrust of his barrow-blade. And the hobbit youngsters hoping for the dashing stuff you can hear from Mr Pippin after a few ales are doomed to disappointment.

http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=602043#602043


As you can imagine, there is a a thriving area of scholarship trying to relate Tolkien's own experiences of World War I to what he went on to write. If there aren't several people on this forum who can recommend some good references for you, then I'm a dragon. But, whether or not I'm a dragon, I'm not one that is very knowledgeable about Tolkien's biography.

~~~~~~
Two Towers Read-through Book IV: Schedule and appeal for volunteers to lead the chapters which are as yet unclaimed: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886370#886370

The Book III read-through links!:
week started # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
13-Sep-15 # I # The Departure of Boromir # MirielCelebel http://goo.gl/zpn7Rg
20-Sep-15 # II # The Riders of Rohan # Brethil (Part 1) http://goo.gl/yKNv7E (2) http://goo.gl/mxesBG
27-Sep-15 # III # The Uruk-hai # cats16 http://goo.gl/LUWJi1
04-Oct-15 # IV # Treebeard # Mikah http://goo.gl/2CqCXS
11-Oct-15 # V # The White Rider # Entwife Wandlimb  http://goo.gl/VXb2Ni
18-Oct-15 # VI # The King of the Golden Hall # squire (Part 1) http://goo.gl/cpEvnI, (2) http://goo.gl/BBTzvR, (3) http://goo.gl/yN7QLq, (4) http://goo.gl/7726S3 (5) http://goo.gl/VC7Abc
25-Oct-15 # VII # Helm's Deep # arithmancer  (Part 1) http://goo.gl/E6gVUC, (2) http://goo.gl/5aRuq0
01-Nov-15 # VIII # The Road to Isengard # Darkstone (Part 1)http://goo.gl/rdE1xG (2) http://goo.gl/54rxDw (3)http://goo.gl/Y0ZDwz (4) http://goo.gl/XVgXCx (5) http://goo.gl/Ph0O7k
08-Nov-15 # IX # Flotsam and Jetsam # Enanito (Part 1) http://goo.gl/GddHbU (2) http://goo.gl/5Z6MQU
15-Nov-15 # X # The Voice of Saruman # jochenkeen  (Part 1) http://goo.gl/1voDsc (2)http://goo.gl/JONRh2 (3) http://goo.gl/EIeL6B
22-Nov-15 # XI # The Palantir # Elizabeth (Part 1) http://goo.gl/m4SYVO (2) http://goo.gl/7rB38s (3)http://goo.gl/cI7Vmt (4) http://goo.gl/KC4bkT


A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


squire
Half-elven


Dec 1 2015, 1:10pm

Post #7 of 12 (1314 views)
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WW I writers on Tolkien. [In reply to] Can't Post

John Garth is the leading writer on Tolkien's World War I experiences and how they informed his fantasy works.

I understand your qualifications about 'shell shock', because as you say the Armies did not like the implications that men could be disabled psychologically even though they were physically unharmed. Nevertheless, shell shock was known to be real, was understood as extreme mental trauma, and was treated when possible by clinicians who developed approaches to healing - not all of which were as effective as expected.

Tolkien would have known what it was. I'm not sure he would agree that his depiction of Frodo's alienation at the end of the story was 'shell shock', which is directly associated with heavy combat. The general, more modern, idea of trauma, which we now call PTSD, would be more appropriate, I think. Nor should we too easily transfer our experiences with generally occurring traumas (the list is brutally familiar) to the trauma of losing the One Ring - that is meant to be a mystical or transcendent injury that is not all that common in today's world.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Dec 1 2015, 3:16pm

Post #8 of 12 (1305 views)
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Diagnoses and fantasy ailments [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I'm not sure he would agree that his depiction of Frodo's alienation at the end of the story was 'shell shock', which is directly associated with heavy combat. The general, more modern, idea of trauma, which we now call PTSD, would be more appropriate, I think. Nor should we too easily transfer our experiences with generally occurring traumas (the list is brutally familiar) to the trauma of losing the One Ring - that is meant to be a mystical or transcendent injury that is not all that common in today's world.


Yes, I suppose when thinking about Frodo's reactions to his ordeal, Tolkien's options were to make up a new and distinct pathology for Frodo's injuries, or to make at least in part like something he and his readers might recognize. He could have:

...researched men with stab injuries. It is very likely that he had met some, given the wartime opportunities for people to get bayoneted or otherwise stabbed- but could not meet anyone who had been stabbed with a magic knife (none exist)

...researched or met people who had been bitten by spiders, or attacked by large dangerous animals, but he would have to make up the effects of being bitten by a spider the size of Shelob (none exist).

... observed many people trying to get on with life after 'having a bad war' after each of the World Wars he experienced), but would have to make up the effects of having a magical Great Ring violently seized (none exist).

Diagnoses of clinical mental illness aside, people who had 'had a bad war' must have been commonplace during Tolkien's time, simply because of the number of people who had been affected by such large wars. They would have include combat veterans, concentration camp survivors, blitz survivors, ex-refugees, and children whose evacuation experiences had been cruel.

I suppose that puts us into a middle ground: Frodo's symptoms are not fantastical (e.g. he does not turn into a spider or a wraith or a gollum at intervals, or become partly invisible). But nor perhaps (as you say) should we go too far in equating them exactly with the real-life traumas.

That said, I would expect that many people who had 'had a bad war' found the writing about post-war Frodo to be very applicable.

~~~~~~
Two Towers Read-through Book IV: Schedule and appeal for volunteers to lead the chapters which are as yet unclaimed: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886370#886370

The Book III read-through links!:
week started # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
13-Sep-15 # I # The Departure of Boromir # MirielCelebel http://goo.gl/zpn7Rg
20-Sep-15 # II # The Riders of Rohan # Brethil (Part 1) http://goo.gl/yKNv7E (2) http://goo.gl/mxesBG
27-Sep-15 # III # The Uruk-hai # cats16 http://goo.gl/LUWJi1
04-Oct-15 # IV # Treebeard # Mikah http://goo.gl/2CqCXS
11-Oct-15 # V # The White Rider # Entwife Wandlimb  http://goo.gl/VXb2Ni
18-Oct-15 # VI # The King of the Golden Hall # squire (Part 1) http://goo.gl/cpEvnI, (2) http://goo.gl/BBTzvR, (3) http://goo.gl/yN7QLq, (4) http://goo.gl/7726S3 (5) http://goo.gl/VC7Abc
25-Oct-15 # VII # Helm's Deep # arithmancer  (Part 1) http://goo.gl/E6gVUC, (2) http://goo.gl/5aRuq0
01-Nov-15 # VIII # The Road to Isengard # Darkstone (Part 1)http://goo.gl/rdE1xG (2) http://goo.gl/54rxDw (3)http://goo.gl/Y0ZDwz (4) http://goo.gl/XVgXCx (5) http://goo.gl/Ph0O7k
08-Nov-15 # IX # Flotsam and Jetsam # Enanito (Part 1) http://goo.gl/GddHbU (2) http://goo.gl/5Z6MQU
15-Nov-15 # X # The Voice of Saruman # jochenkeen  (Part 1) http://goo.gl/1voDsc (2)http://goo.gl/JONRh2 (3) http://goo.gl/EIeL6B
22-Nov-15 # XI # The Palantir # Elizabeth (Part 1) http://goo.gl/m4SYVO (2) http://goo.gl/7rB38s (3)http://goo.gl/cI7Vmt (4) http://goo.gl/KC4bkT


A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


squire
Half-elven


Dec 1 2015, 7:21pm

Post #9 of 12 (1299 views)
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Yes, Frodo's experience certainly is 'applicable' in that sense. [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course you're right that, in order for his readers to appreciate the story, Tolkien had to write in terms that we could relate to on some level.

But as I said, I try not to be too literal in discussing this idea. I don't think Tolkien is being literal. My understanding of Frodo's 'trauma', or more exactly his affliction from it in later time, is this:
He, a good man (ex. hobbit), fell into Evil. At the last possible second, he repented and has been Good ever since, with a supremely enhanced sense of why Good is better than Evil due to direct experience. And yet... from time to time.. he finds himself missing that exquisite feeling of being supremely Evil - of knowing that Goodness is a lie and that the power to cause pain to others is the only power worth having.

Then he wakes up, shakes his head in terror of the creature he briefly once was, and realizes that these flashbacks are never going to go away. He doesn't know how he can continue to live like this.
Obviously this is an experience that can only be rendered symbolically or metaphorically. "Evil" and "Good" are not the most useful terms by which to discuss PTSD or shell shock, etc. for the obvious reason that good and evil are mixed qualities in the real-life human experience. And that's why Tolkien's writing is rare in our time, when we value specific examples by which to draw larger philosophical lessons, including the lessons of the terrors and follies of war. He instead goes right to the larger philosophical lessons, and using a fantasy setting, brings them to life directly.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Kim Cates
Registered User

Dec 3 2015, 2:17am

Post #10 of 12 (1257 views)
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Frodo's trauma [In reply to] Can't Post

I definitely would agree with you about Frodo's trauma could be more than a physical or mental . As Tolkien himself says that there is a spiritual aspect to the book. - "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work," he wrote, "unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like "religion", to cults or practices, in the Imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism" (Letter 142). Perhaps this is one of those places he describes.


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Dec 4 2015, 11:58pm

Post #11 of 12 (1225 views)
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Frodo was based about quite a bit [In reply to] Can't Post

In order, stabbed by a Nazgul, charged in the shoulder by a Troll, stung by Shelob, had a finger bitten of by Gollum, and of course had a long and exhausting journey to Mount Doom. Funny thing, but I think that the stinging by Shelob seemed to effect him the most. He didn't seem quite the same Hobbit after that.


Meneldor
Valinor


Dec 5 2015, 2:11am

Post #12 of 12 (1223 views)
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Shelob's sting hit Frodo just as he entered Mordor. [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe the Ring may have gained power and preyed more on Frodo's mind and soul as it returned to the realm of its maker. So, if Frodo wasn't the same hobbit after that, it could be more from the Ring than from the spider venom.


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107

 
 

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