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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Nov 28 2015, 3:14am
Post #1 of 13
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**LotR: The Two Towers, Chapter 11, #4 The Journey Ahead **
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The events of this chapter occurred on the night of March 4, 3019, according to the Tale of Years in Appendix B. Tolkien kept everything synchronized by keeping a handwritten spreadsheet tracking the movements of the scattered members of the Fellowship. Many of us saw the original exhibited at Fordham University in New York when FotR was performed at the Radio City Music Hall with orchestra some years ago.
On this day, Frodo, Sam, and Gollum reached the slag-mounds at the edge of the Desolation of the Morannon.
1. How many of you actually wonder about how Frodo and Sam are doing while reading this? Are these occasional synchronizations helpful, irrelevant, or distracting?
I would like to revisit the appearance of the Nazgul in the light of this synchronicity for a moment. In the March 2011 read-through sador tied some of this up for us:
Checking the dates, I submit that Grishnákh reported Uglúk’s refusal to obey on the night between the 26th and 27th of February, and was sent back on the 28th. Then it would take another week before the Winged Messenger actually crossed the River – perhaps it was positioned in Dol Guldur, and needed to fly and get permission from Barad-dűr before crossing? That might be the Nazgűl Frodo and Sam will hear next chapter. On the morning of March the 3rd, they encountered another wraith going south – perhaps reporting that no news where heard from Grishnákh, but Saruman has begun a massive assault on Rohan? Anyway, this Nazgűl apparently set out from the Dark Tower just as Frodo reached the slag-mounds next to the Morannon: About an hour after midnight the fear fell on them a third time, but this time it seemed more remote, as if it were passing far above the clouds, rushing with terrible speed into the West.
2. Anyone else counting Nazgul overflights? What do you think of sador's theory?
As they ride, Gandalf provides us with a nice summary of where things stand, first with Saruman:
So Saruman will come to the last pinch of the vice that he has put his hand in. He has no captive to send. He has no Stone to see with, and cannot answer the summons. Sauron will only believe that he is withholding the captive and refusing to use the Stone. It will not help Saruman to tell the truth to the messenger. For Isengard may be ruined, yet he is still safe in Orthanc. So whether he will or no, he will appear a rebel. Yet he rejected us, so as to avoid that very thing! What he will do in such a plight, I cannot guess. He has power still, I think, while in Orthanc, to resist the Nine Riders. He may try to do so. He may try to trap the Nazgűl, or at least to slay the thing on which it now rides the air. In that case let Rohan look to its horses!
This last potential event is pretty drastic. Just as well it didn't happen!
3. What is the threat implied in the last sentence?
Continuing the summation:
But I cannot tell how it will fall out, well or ill for us. It may be that the counsels of the Enemy will be confused, or hindered by his wrath with Saruman. It may be that he will learn that I was there and stood upon the stairs of Orthanc-with hobbits at my tail. Or that an heir of Elendil lives and stood beside me. If Wormtongue was not deceived by the armour of Rohan, he would remember Aragorn and the title that he claimed. That is what I fear. And so we fly – not from danger but into greater danger. Every stride of Shadowfax bears you nearer to the Land of Shadow, Peregrin Took.’
4. How would you summarize the actual effect of the confrontation with Saruman and its aftermath?
The image in the final paragraph of this chapter is haunting.
5. Does this answer my first question in Wednesday's post? How do you imagine this ride?
We will not see Pippin again for some months.
Time now for some last thoughts, from some previous discussions:
From the third discussion, Sept/Oct. 2005:
"They all stared at him in silence, except Merry, who turned away." (Kerewyn)
squire on whether the Moon actually played a role here, and what actually might have.
From the fourth discussion, in 2008, drogo asks some general questions relevant to winding up Book Three (but continuing my question numbering, to avoid confusion):
6. Why do you think Tolkien wanted to break up the Fellowship and follow disparate threads that come together but are then divided up again? How does this fit into the larger design of his story, and, perhaps, the larger design of providence in Tolkien's imagined universe?
7. When you first read the book, were you concerned about having to wait to hear about Frodo and Sam?
8. Does the Saruman/Rohan plotline seem to be connected to the larger story of Sauron seeking the One Ring, or is it a detour (a "diversion" to quote Orli)? How do they add to the overarching plotline of the book?
9. What is your favorite moment from this book? (I love the image of Merry and Pippin at the ruined Isengard being typical hobbits, even if the film turned them into Cheech and Chong finding Saruman's secret stash.)
In this season of giving thanks, I am thankful to Tolkien, to TORn, and to all of you for participating this week! Aloha.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Nov 29 2015, 10:39am
Post #3 of 13
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Book III and Book IV: separate and yet not so
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This is a kind-of answer to
1. How many of you actually wonder about how Frodo and Sam are doing while reading this? Are these occasional synchronizations helpful, irrelevant, or distracting? But my thoughts grew in the musing...
By giving us a whole book of Aragorn and his allies before cutting back to Frodo, Tolkien makes these stories nearly independent (though they are not really so - see below). I think the effect is much stronger that it would be if Tolkien had chosen to cut back and forth more frequently between Frodo and Sam and Aragorn and the other survivours of the Fellowship. A more rapid cutting to and fro is what Peter Jackson's team chose for their screenplay, showing that this can be done - at least for modern audiences used to films that cut back and forth between parallel stories. (BTW: I wonder if this more cinematic way of story telling may have influenced book writers who have worked in the cinematic age, and whether it would have been a more daring - and possibly more confusing - way to organize a long story in the 1940s and 1950s.)
To see how separate the two strands are, it helps to try to imagine what would be needed to uncouple them completely. A horrible idea, perhaps, but one that is interesting to consider. Tolkien *could* have decided to have only Gandalf, Frodo and Sam set out from Rivendell, and then he could have avoided the War of the Ring material. (I'm not sure to what extent he anticipated writing all the Book III material when he first started: I think that Aragorn's tale was something he discovered in the writing). Or he *could in theory* (though certainly would not have) jettisoned what was previously his main plot line, and make this a story of Aragorn. To prove this is possible (and I do mean just 'possible', not 'advisable' or 'desirable') imagine - for example - a story that starts at Rivendell. Boromir has come with his prophetic dream, and finds that it concerns a long-term occasional house-guest at Rivendell. We then have a hobbit-less Book II and Book III. Perhaps the story ends with the defeat of Sauron, instead of the Witch King outside the gates of Minas Tirith. How would such a drastically cut down tale have been received? I think it would still be considered a major work of fantasy. Obviously it lacks the many themes about the Ring and about Mordor - which of course we will be discussing in the Book IV read-through starting Janurary 3rd! And I do think that Tolkien has more imitators of his Book III themes - the battles, seiges, romances etc. that are common fare for genre fantasy - than his more psychological Book IV themes.
I think the near-decoupling between Book III and Book IV has an important effect. The characters in the various shards of the Fellowship have to get on with what is in front of them, unable to know the bigger picture. Sometimes we readers know more than the characters do themselves (for example, unlike Merry & Pippin in Uruk-hai, we know that a rescue is being attempted). Sometimes we know something really unhelpful (at the start of Book V we turn back to Pippin and Gandalf, knowing, as these characters do not, that Frodo has been captured). But keeping Aragorn in Book III and Frodo in Book IV means that often we know nothing at all.
I suspect Tolkien has a theme of having to do the right thing despite having to handle all this not-knowing, and that he has organized his chapters and 'books' to bring this out.
There are tie-ins to find - nazgul flights, moon observations, the odd explicit reminder that the characters haven't forgotten each other. But these mostly went over my head on first reading - perhaps many readers miss them, and this does not matter, I think. They are fun when you find them, and they may also have been helpful for Tolkien himself, keeping his timelines straight.
The two strands - Aragorn and Frodo, do inter-relate really, of course. We are told that, unless Frodo succeeds in destroying the Ring, all that Aragorn et al. can achieve is to go down fighting. Conversely, we have just at the end of Book III reached the point where Aragorn is about to go on the offensive. He's about to reveal his existence to Sauron, and wrest control of the palantir from him. This deliberate provocation is the start of a strategy of creating the biggest distraction possible, so as to keep Sauron from discovering his real peril. So Aragorn cannot succeed without Frodo, and Frodo cannot succeed without Aragorn.
~~~~~~
Two Towers Read-through: Now looking for volunteers to lead chapters in Book IV: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=878725#878725
The Book III read-through links!:
week started # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
13-Sep-15 # I # The Departure of Boromir # MirielCelebel http://goo.gl/zpn7Rg
20-Sep-15 # II # The Riders of Rohan # Brethil (Part 1) http://goo.gl/yKNv7E (2) http://goo.gl/mxesBG
27-Sep-15 # III # The Uruk-hai # cats16 http://goo.gl/LUWJi1
04-Oct-15 # IV # Treebeard # Mikah http://goo.gl/2CqCXS
11-Oct-15 # V # The White Rider # Entwife Wandlimb http://goo.gl/VXb2Ni
18-Oct-15 # VI # The King of the Golden Hall # squire (Part 1) http://goo.gl/cpEvnI, (2) http://goo.gl/BBTzvR, (3) http://goo.gl/yN7QLq, (4) http://goo.gl/7726S3 (5) http://goo.gl/VC7Abc
25-Oct-15 # VII # Helm's Deep # arithmancer (Part 1) http://goo.gl/E6gVUC, (2) http://goo.gl/5aRuq0
01-Nov-15 # VIII # The Road to Isengard # Darkstone (Part 1)http://goo.gl/rdE1xG (2) http://goo.gl/54rxDw (3)http://goo.gl/Y0ZDwz (4) http://goo.gl/XVgXCx (5) http://goo.gl/Ph0O7k
08-Nov-15 # IX # Flotsam and Jetsam # Enanito (Part 1) http://goo.gl/GddHbU (2) http://goo.gl/5Z6MQU
15-Nov-15 # X # The Voice of Saruman # jochenkeen (Part 1) http://goo.gl/1voDsc (2)http://goo.gl/JONRh2 (3) http://goo.gl/EIeL6B
22-Nov-15 # XI # The Palantir # Elizabeth (Part 1) http://goo.gl/m4SYVO (2) http://goo.gl/7rB38s (3)http://goo.gl/cI7Vmt (4) http://goo.gl/KC4bkT
Book IV starts 3 January 2016!!
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Nov 29 2015, 1:25pm
Post #4 of 13
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Nazgul movements - and why is it so significant that the nazgul are across the River?
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Hammond and Scull (in The Reader's Companion) also think that the Nazgul that overflies Frodo & Sam in Taming of Smeagol is the one sent to wait for Grishnákh and return with the Ring (and possibly bearers). So I assume the timeline works well for that, even under very expert scrutiny.
There is certainly a nice irony in having this nazgul fail to collect the hobbit wrongly assumed to be the Ringbearer (because of the failure of the orc raid) and then fly right over the real Ringbearer without - as far as we know - sensing the Ring. But I expect that it is impossible to be conclusive - a reader who wants to think that the nazgul are sent on routine overflights of Emyn Muil won't, I think, find anything in the text to refute this explicitly?.
There is also Gandalf's suggestion that Saruman has looked into the palantir since the orc raid, and that more of his secret thought has been understood than he realised. So the nazgul might have been sent in response to Sauron wanting to curse Saruman's sudden but inevitable betrayal.
I remember liking, on my first reading, Gandalf's pooh-poohing Pippin's idea that the nazgul could have come so soon to take him away. I still like that - it is part of the respect for time and distance that makes Middle-earth seem a solid place.
Clearly it is a very big deal that the flying Nazgul have crossed the Anduin (just as we learned from Grishnákh that Sauron was ordering them to remain east of the river earlier on - see http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=873985#873985 ) This is clearly of significance to Tolkien, and Gandalf seems to see the arrival of the nazgul as a significant escalation of hostilities: even the declaration of war, perhaps. There certainly seems to be more to Gandalf's reaction than the immediate military problem of being overflown by an enemy reconnaissance unit, even one with the terrifying powers of a nazgul.
I don't think I understand this....
~~~~~~
Two Towers Read-through Book IV: Schedule and appeal for volunteers to lead the chapters which are as yet unclaimed: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886370#886370
The Book III read-through links!:
week started # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
13-Sep-15 # I # The Departure of Boromir # MirielCelebel http://goo.gl/zpn7Rg
20-Sep-15 # II # The Riders of Rohan # Brethil (Part 1) http://goo.gl/yKNv7E (2) http://goo.gl/mxesBG
27-Sep-15 # III # The Uruk-hai # cats16 http://goo.gl/LUWJi1
04-Oct-15 # IV # Treebeard # Mikah http://goo.gl/2CqCXS
11-Oct-15 # V # The White Rider # Entwife Wandlimb http://goo.gl/VXb2Ni
18-Oct-15 # VI # The King of the Golden Hall # squire (Part 1) http://goo.gl/cpEvnI, (2) http://goo.gl/BBTzvR, (3) http://goo.gl/yN7QLq, (4) http://goo.gl/7726S3 (5) http://goo.gl/VC7Abc
25-Oct-15 # VII # Helm's Deep # arithmancer (Part 1) http://goo.gl/E6gVUC, (2) http://goo.gl/5aRuq0
01-Nov-15 # VIII # The Road to Isengard # Darkstone (Part 1)http://goo.gl/rdE1xG (2) http://goo.gl/54rxDw (3)http://goo.gl/Y0ZDwz (4) http://goo.gl/XVgXCx (5) http://goo.gl/Ph0O7k
08-Nov-15 # IX # Flotsam and Jetsam # Enanito (Part 1) http://goo.gl/GddHbU (2) http://goo.gl/5Z6MQU
15-Nov-15 # X # The Voice of Saruman # jochenkeen (Part 1) http://goo.gl/1voDsc (2)http://goo.gl/JONRh2 (3) http://goo.gl/EIeL6B
22-Nov-15 # XI # The Palantir # Elizabeth (Part 1) http://goo.gl/m4SYVO (2) http://goo.gl/7rB38s (3)http://goo.gl/cI7Vmt (4) http://goo.gl/KC4bkT
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Nov 29 2015, 1:40pm
Post #5 of 13
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Tolkien avoids the "boss battles"
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The Nazgul is on the way to Orthanc to do ...what? We never discover. Perhaps it overflies, sees Isengard in ruins and aborts whatever other mission it had to report back on that with all dispatch. After all, what other than the power of the Ring in the hands of a new Ringlord could make such a mess?
So we don't see Saruman defend himself against a nazgul, just as Gandalf The White's showdown against the Witch King is aborted. There's a general tendency to avoid showing us the powerful of Middle-earth fighting each other - a contrast to the films where every opportunity seems to be taken to include a long fight scene.
Other examples:
Gandalf the Grey vs. (many or all of the nazgul at Weathertop - seen in the distance, reported very briefly by Gandalf
Gandalf versus Saruman - if they do fight in Orthanc a la the films, Gandalf doesn't mention it
Gandalf versus Balrog - the battle plunges out of our view almost at once, and then is reported in epic rather than detailed style.
~~~~~~
Two Towers Read-through Book IV: Schedule and appeal for volunteers to lead the chapters which are as yet unclaimed: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886370#886370
The Book III read-through links!:
week started # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
13-Sep-15 # I # The Departure of Boromir # MirielCelebel http://goo.gl/zpn7Rg
20-Sep-15 # II # The Riders of Rohan # Brethil (Part 1) http://goo.gl/yKNv7E (2) http://goo.gl/mxesBG
27-Sep-15 # III # The Uruk-hai # cats16 http://goo.gl/LUWJi1
04-Oct-15 # IV # Treebeard # Mikah http://goo.gl/2CqCXS
11-Oct-15 # V # The White Rider # Entwife Wandlimb http://goo.gl/VXb2Ni
18-Oct-15 # VI # The King of the Golden Hall # squire (Part 1) http://goo.gl/cpEvnI, (2) http://goo.gl/BBTzvR, (3) http://goo.gl/yN7QLq, (4) http://goo.gl/7726S3 (5) http://goo.gl/VC7Abc
25-Oct-15 # VII # Helm's Deep # arithmancer (Part 1) http://goo.gl/E6gVUC, (2) http://goo.gl/5aRuq0
01-Nov-15 # VIII # The Road to Isengard # Darkstone (Part 1)http://goo.gl/rdE1xG (2) http://goo.gl/54rxDw (3)http://goo.gl/Y0ZDwz (4) http://goo.gl/XVgXCx (5) http://goo.gl/Ph0O7k
08-Nov-15 # IX # Flotsam and Jetsam # Enanito (Part 1) http://goo.gl/GddHbU (2) http://goo.gl/5Z6MQU
15-Nov-15 # X # The Voice of Saruman # jochenkeen (Part 1) http://goo.gl/1voDsc (2)http://goo.gl/JONRh2 (3) http://goo.gl/EIeL6B
22-Nov-15 # XI # The Palantir # Elizabeth (Part 1) http://goo.gl/m4SYVO (2) http://goo.gl/7rB38s (3)http://goo.gl/cI7Vmt (4) http://goo.gl/KC4bkT
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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enanito
Rohan
Nov 30 2015, 2:13am
Post #6 of 13
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Anduin must symbolize something?
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I likewise am still unclear, even after the previous discussions, exactly why Sauron held the Ringwraiths on the east of the Anduin. My amateur instincts tell me to use them early and often -- even if one was killed, hey I've still got eight! Possibly the complete failure of the previous attempt to get the Ring in the Shire gave Sauron pause, and the Great River was just a natural border to revert back to?
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Nov 30 2015, 5:34am
Post #7 of 13
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It's the Rubicon of Middle Earth?
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East is Sauron's domain. The fact that the Nazgul now have flying steeds must be his "secret weapon" (though more of a psy-ops weapon than a destructive one). I suspect he doesn't want to show this capability until the right strategic moment.
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enanito
Rohan
Nov 30 2015, 8:51pm
Post #8 of 13
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7. When you first read the book, were you concerned about having to wait to hear about Frodo and Sam?
I mentioned this at the beginning of our Book III discussion -- during my first reading of LOTR, when I discovered that Book IV was not a continuation of the story of the remaining 6 Fellowship members, I was initially quite bummed out. I think this is in large part due to Tolkien's storytelling and world-building, that even though I knew deep down that the Ring's storyline was more important, I just wanted to keep barreling ahead with the previous plotlines a bit longer!
8. Does the Saruman/Rohan plotline seem to be connected to the larger story of Sauron seeking the One Ring, or is it a detour (a "diversion" to quote Orli)? How do they add to the overarching plotline of the book?
For me the time taken with this aspect of the overall story, is part of what intrigues me about Tolkien's M.E. The Hobbit was much more of a self-contained story about the specifics of the quest for Erebor, without much insight into how this fit into any larger picture. In LOTR, even with a full Book III exposure to Rohan and Saruman, I still want to know more :) Book III made me feel like this was truly a world-wide consuming event. We get the Ents who are adamantly uninterested in life outside Fangorn becoming major players, and this continues later on with the Oathbreakers and the Woses participating in events as well.
9. What is your favorite moment from this book?
Maybe since it's recent, but first time through the book I was mesmerized by Gandalf's breaking of Saruman's staff. It took me by complete surprise, a "Yowza!" moment that ratcheted Gandalf (already quite dear to me by that point) up by about 10,000% in my estimation. How he commanded Saruman to return, imposing his will over Saruman's, and cast him from the order. Wow.
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Al Carondas
Lorien
Dec 3 2015, 4:14am
Post #9 of 13
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Looking behind and looking ahead
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I always felt a pang when shifting from one story line to the other during The Two Towers and The Return of the King. Tolkien is just such a masterful storyteller that I become hooked by whichever part of the tale he is telling me. It's hard to tear myself away - at first. But in short order he always recaptures me.
Still, I have always been more intrigued by Sam and Frodo's journey, and yes, I was often thinking of them throughout Book III. The events of this book are certainly more than just a diversion; these are very important events in themselves, as I have come to appreciate ever more over time. Plus, they do directly affect the Ring Quest. Yet I do feel a great sense of separation between the story lines nevertheless. I do get the sense that we have taken a sharp detour. And I like that. For me it reinforces the idea that while each character is fulfilling the role of hero in his or her own special story, each is also playing only a small part in the great play. I find myself wondering at times how Frodo and Sam will react upon hearing Merry's or Pippin's tale of the War. And vice versa.
I'd have to say that my favorite part of Book III was Treebeard. Meeting him in Fangorn, especially, but also just learning more about him and Ents throughout the rest of the story. I wasn't expecting Ents, and then pow! A walking, talking tree? Brilliant! Magical. Mystical. I love hearing the story of the Ents. I love hearing their take on history. And on Men. And Elves. And Time. And Wizards. And Hobbits. And I love all the details that Tolkien uses to convey the Entish character: the unhastiness, the eyes, the strength, the inflexibility. It amazes me how Tolkien is able to get deep inside the hearts and minds of trees just as he is able to do with each of his other characters. And I've no doubt he is perfectly tapped in to what Trees really would say if they could talk.
"Good Morning!"
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Dec 3 2015, 7:52am
Post #10 of 13
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Maybe the Ents are Tolkien's most imaginative creations.
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Not that I'm all that familiar with the entire Fantasy/Scifi genre, but I know of nothing quite like the Ents and Huorns. Utterly brilliant, and adding one more layer of depth to the creation that is Middle Earth.
That said, I personally found them stretching my imagination almost further than I could accept, so the Ents and Huorns are probably my least favorite "races".
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Dec 3 2015, 10:14pm
Post #11 of 13
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My surprise with Treebeard was
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that he was not another Bombadil, who was basically an eccentric living in the woods providing temporary shelter to the hobbits while they recovered from their ordeal. Instead he (and his people) became a major instrument in the war against Sauron. That has always swept me along as I read the Ent part of the trilogy.
But on my first few reads, I always ached to get back to "the real story" of Sam & Frodo, since all these other people would be enslaved if the latter two had failed. It took time to slow down and really appreciate this part of the book.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Dec 4 2015, 7:36pm
Post #12 of 13
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1. How many of you actually wonder about how Frodo and Sam are doing while reading this?
Yes.
Are these occasional synchronizations helpful, irrelevant, or distracting?
Yes.
I would like to revisit the appearance of the Nazgul in the light of this synchronicity for a moment. In the March 2011 read-through sador tied some of this up for us:
________________________________________ Quote ________________________________________
Checking the dates, I submit that Grishnákh reported Uglúk’s refusal to obey on the night between the 26th and 27th of February, and was sent back on the 28th. Then it would take another week before the Winged Messenger actually crossed the River – perhaps it was positioned in Dol Guldur, and needed to fly and get permission from Barad-dűr before crossing? That might be the Nazgűl Frodo and Sam will hear next chapter. On the morning of March the 3rd, they encountered another wraith going south – perhaps reporting that no news where heard from Grishnákh, but Saruman has begun a massive assault on Rohan? Anyway, this Nazgűl apparently set out from the Dark Tower just as Frodo reached the slag-mounds next to the Morannon:
________________________________________ Quote ________________________________________
About an hour after midnight the fear fell on them a third time, but this time it seemed more remote, as if it were passing far above the clouds, rushing with terrible speed into the West.
________________________________________
________________________________________
2. Anyone else counting Nazgul overflights?
I was thinking more of Nyarlathotep or maybe some flying fungi from Yuggoth.
What do you think of sador's theory?
Absolutely brilliant, but then sador always is.
As they ride, Gandalf provides us with a nice summary of where things stand, first with Saruman:
________________________________________ Quote ________________________________________
So Saruman will come to the last pinch of the vice that he has put his hand in. He has no captive to send. He has no Stone to see with, and cannot answer the summons. Sauron will only believe that he is withholding the captive and refusing to use the Stone. It will not help Saruman to tell the truth to the messenger. For Isengard may be ruined, yet he is still safe in Orthanc. So whether he will or no, he will appear a rebel. Yet he rejected us, so as to avoid that very thing! What he will do in such a plight, I cannot guess. He has power still, I think, while in Orthanc, to resist the Nine Riders. He may try to do so. He may try to trap the Nazgűl, or at least to slay the thing on which it now rides the air. In that case let Rohan look to its horses!
________________________________________
This last potential event is pretty drastic. Just as well it didn't happen!
3. What is the threat implied in the last sentence?
I knew the Nazgul were absolutely Evil, but dirty, low-down, rotten hoss-thieves as well?!?!
Continuing the summation:
________________________________________ Quote ________________________________________
But I cannot tell how it will fall out, well or ill for us. It may be that the counsels of the Enemy will be confused, or hindered by his wrath with Saruman. It may be that he will learn that I was there and stood upon the stairs of Orthanc-with hobbits at my tail. Or that an heir of Elendil lives and stood beside me. If Wormtongue was not deceived by the armour of Rohan, he would remember Aragorn and the title that he claimed. That is what I fear. And so we fly – not from danger but into greater danger. Every stride of Shadowfax bears you nearer to the Land of Shadow, Peregrin Took.’
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4. How would you summarize the actual effect of the confrontation with Saruman and its aftermath?
Not with a big bang, but with a weenie whimper.
The image in the final paragraph of this chapter is haunting.
5. Does this answer my first question in Wednesday's post?
Sure.
How do you imagine this ride?
Like Muhammad’s Night Journey:
Then he [Gabriel] brought the Buraq, handsome-faced and bridled, a tall, white beast, bigger than the donkey but smaller than the mule. He could place his hooves at the farthest boundary of his gaze. He had long ears. Whenever he faced a mountain his hind legs would extend, and whenever he went downhill his front legs would extend. He had two wings on his thighs which lent strength to his legs.
He bucked when Muhammad came to mount him. The angel Jibril (Gabriel) put his hand on his mane and said: "Are you not ashamed, O Buraq? By Allah, no-one has ridden you in all creation more dear to Allah than he is." Hearing this he was so ashamed that he sweated until he became soaked, and he stood still so that the Prophet mounted him.
- Muhammad al-Bukhari, “Sahih al-Bukhari”
6. Why do you think Tolkien wanted to break up the Fellowship and follow disparate threads that come together but are then divided up again?
An homage to Shakespeare, who usually had three plot threads going on in his plays?
An acknowledgment that any great war consists of several fronts, and success or failure any one could mean overall victory or defeat?
It’s just plain exciting?
How does this fit into the larger design of his story, and, perhaps, the larger design of providence in Tolkien's imagined universe?
The Anglo-Saxon concept of the ring: rings of gold, rings in armor, rings (cycles) of life, rings of the world. It’s like everything is interconnected. Like rings.
7. When you first read the book, were you concerned about having to wait to hear about Frodo and Sam?
I was still miffed the book wasn’t about Bilbo.
8. Does the Saruman/Rohan plotline seem to be connected to the larger story of Sauron seeking the One Ring, or is it a detour (a "diversion" to quote Orli)?
That’s the challenge to the reader to figure out. Like the clue of the dog that didn’t bark. Or in this case, the weinie that croaked.
How do they add to the overarching plotline of the book?
Chaos theory: The heartbreak of a beautiful butterfly in Edoras can lead to the downfall of a nasty Nazgul at the Pelennor.
9. What is your favorite moment from this book? (I love the image of Merry and Pippin at the ruined Isengard being typical hobbits, even if the film turned them into Cheech and Chong finding Saruman's secret stash.)
Eowyn.
In this season of giving thanks, I am thankful to Tolkien, to TORn, and to all of you for participating this week! Aloha.
Great job! Thanks for leading! Sorry for the late responses but I fell at work and hurt the same blamed leg that got impaled in that car wreck few years ago.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Dec 5 2015, 12:04am
Post #13 of 13
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Now, why have Saruman as an alternative enemy indeed? It might have been an early attack of Sauron's on Rohan! Mind, sometimes in tales like this iris useful to have bad guys that don't get on with each other. Means that our heroes in this case Merry and Pippin, can survive whilst been in their clutches. If that band of Orcs had been purely Mordor Orcs, they would have been taken to Mordor pretty quick, end of tale! As an example.
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