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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Nov 25 2015, 9:26am
Post #1 of 42
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**LotR: The Two Towers, Chapter 11, #3 The Palantiri
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Shadowbox is carrying Gandalf and Pippin at top speed across the Westfold. Whenever I read these sections, I have to ponder riding double on horseback. I've had some limited experience doing this, mostly when I was a kid, and it was extremely uncomfortable, particularly at paces faster than a walk. I agree it's the only practical mode of transportation in some of these situations, but I still sympathize with the poor hobbits and Gimli who have to spend days in this mode! Especially when doubling with Gandalf, who isn't using any kind of saddle.
1. Anyone want to comment on riding double, with no saddle, on a horse at breakneck speed for 4 days?
<img src="http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e52/econklin4/TORn/Sever%20stars.._zpsjft0mgyq.jpg" align=left>
As they ride, Gandalf is pondering the history of the Palantír. He murmurs to himself the rhyme:
Tall ships and tall kings
Three times three,
What brought they from the foundered land
Over the flowing sea?
Seven stars and seven stones
And one white tree.
Gandalf only gives us the "seven stones" part. In due course we will know about the White Tree. Are the stars intended to be the Pleides? The Pleiades are named for the Seven Sisters of Greek mythology: Sterope, Merope, Electra, Maia, Taygeta, Celaeno, and Alcyone. However, there are really only either 5 or 9 stars visible in this cluster (depending on how clear the sky is and how good your eyes, binoculars, or telescopes are).
2. Break this down for us! What is this "rhyme of yore" about?
3. Are these stones conceptually related to the "crystal balls" of fairy tales?
<img src="http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e52/econklin4/TORn/Pleides_zpsezbnhne2.jpg" align=Right>
As they fly across Rohan, Gandalf muses aloud about the Palantíri, for Pippin's enlightenment and our entertainment:
The palantíri came from beyond Westernesse from Eldamar. The Noldor made them. Fëanor himself, maybe, wrought them, in days so long ago that the time cannot be measured in years. But there is nothing that Sauron cannot turn to evil uses. Alas for Saruman! It was his downfall, as I now perceive. Perilous to us all are the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves. Yet he must bear the blame. Fool! to keep it secret, for his own profit. No word did he ever speak of it to any of the Council. We had not yet given thought to the fate of the palantíri of Gondor in its ruinous wars. By Men they were almost forgotten. Even in Gondor they were a secret known only to a few; in Arnor they were remembered only in a rhyme of lore among the Dúnedain.
This passage is catnip to those of us who have read the Sil. But I have a few questions:
3. For any of you who have not read the Silmarillion yet, what does this passage say to you?
For the rest of us, I confess that I find this a bit problematic (albeit seductive). I'd love to believe it. But... Why would Fëanor have made them? Did the Elves of Eldamar need such devices? If so, for what? Moreover, I worry about how they got to Middle Earth. Presumably Fëanor brought them to manage the kingdom he intended to establish. How did he pick seven as the right number? How did they survive the First Age cataclysms and end up in the hands of the Numenorian Kings? What was the purpose of the one at the Tower Hills that looked only towards Westernnesse, since Fëanor wanted no part of it any more? Maybe Gandalf was exercising a bit of fantasy.
4. Comments?
Gandalf then explains how the Palantíri were distributed across the South and the North:
They set up Stones at Minas Anor, and at Minas Ithil, and at Orthanc in the ring of Isengard. The chief and master of these was under the Dome of Stars at Osgiliath before its ruin. The three others were far away in the North. In the house of Elrond it is told that they were at Annúminas, and Amon Sûl, and Elendil's Stone was on the Tower Hills that look towards Mithlond in the Gulf of Lune where the grey ships lie. Each palantír replied to each, but all those in Gondor were ever open to the view of Osgiliath. Now it appears that, as the rock of Orthanc has withstood the storms of time, so there the palantír of that tower has remained. But alone it could do nothing but see small images of things far off and days remote. Very useful, no doubt, that was to Saruman; yet it seems that he was not content. Further and further abroad he gazed, until he cast his gaze upon Barad-dûr. Then he was caught!
5. Once again, for the cognoscenti this is catnip. How does it work for the first-time reader?
6. How was Saruman "caught"? What power in the stones could "compel" Saruman to respond to Sauron?
Finally (for tonight) we have the image of our Gandalf, equally caught, at least in his imagination: Even now my heart desires to test my will upon it, to see if I could not wrench it from him and turn it where I would-to look across the wide seas of water and of time to Tirion the Fair, and perceive the unimaginable hand and mind of Fëanor at their work, while both the White Tree and the Golden were in flower!’ He sighed and fell silent.
7. For Sil veterans, do you share this craving? Do you think of Fëanor as a genius, villain, or both?
Next: The Journey Ahead
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Nov 25 2015, 7:31pm)
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Nov 25 2015, 2:33pm
Post #2 of 42
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Shadowbox
Actually fax, a technology doomed to imminent obsolescence.
1. Anyone want to comment on riding double, with no saddle, on a horse at breakneck speed for 4 days?
Buns of steel, those Wizards. Pippin is small, and sitting on Gandalf as a cushion? Shadowfax has a such a smooth gait that Pippin falls asleep. But then Pippin and Merry also slept while bumping over the plains of Rohan on Orcback.
2. Break this down for us! What is this "rhyme of yore" about?
Seven is also the number of days of creation, a symbol of completeness ordained by the Creator. The Dwarves had Seven Fathers.
4. Comments?
I thought the Stones were gifted to the Numenorians, who certainly desired to look West.
6. How was Saruman "caught"? What power in the stones could "compel" Saruman to respond to Sauron?
Saruman had no business looking in the palantir, and he (unlike Aragorn) couldn't control it against Sauron.
7. For Sil veterans, do you share this craving? Do you think of Fëanor as a genius, villain, or both?
I wish to gaze upon Tirion and the Trees, the sea-longing has been growing as I age.
Villian? No. Fallen into pride and selfishness, yes.
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enanito
Rohan
Nov 25 2015, 4:29pm
Post #3 of 42
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2. Break this down for us! What is this "rhyme of yore" about?
When Pippin asks what the stars and stones are about, Gandalf answers "the palantiri". Could the stars also be referencing the palantiri just like the stones obviously do?
6. How was Saruman "caught"? What power in the stones could "compel" Saruman to respond to Sauron?
Maybe I'm just a bit slow, but even after this read-thru, I'm still unsure exactly how to describe Saruman's allegiance to Sauron. Gandalf says he was caught, which could mean that Sauron personally faced Saruman via the connection and forced his submission. When Pippin looks into the stone the messenger (are we 100% sure it's Sauron and not a servant?) asks why Saruman has not "reported" for so long, implying Saruman was definitely providing intel to someone in Barad Dur. Gandalf supposes (inferring, which again isn't definitive) Saruman's relationship with Mordor in terms of persuasion, daunting, instruction, inspection. Yet I still can't shake the feeling when reading TTT that Saruman is much more "grey" than what this "black" interpretation would suggest. Is Saruman's greyness simply in that he is treasonous, basically making him like any Evil Person who is willing to betray his master to get power for himself? Or is he still a Free Man in some regard? Is thinking good about Saruman a fool's hope? Any of you that have thought more about this than I, feel free to enlighten!
7. For Sil veterans, do you share this craving?
Well, I love this insight into Gandalf's heart and deepest desires, with the sigh at the end of his words. Obviously a defining reason as to why he remained faithful to his mission, while Saruman's heart became enamored with the things of this world, and then obtaining power over them. Gandalf never lost sight that while his mission was of supreme importance (helping humanity while on earth, in modern terms), what he desired most was to return back home (to heaven we could say). His temptation is not to wrest with Sauron to defeat him mano-a-mano, but simply to be able to gaze once more on the place he longs to return to.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Nov 25 2015, 6:01pm
Post #4 of 42
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Tall ships and tall kings
Three times three,
What brought they from the foundered land
Over the flowing sea?
Seven stars and seven stones
And one white tree. (without thinking ONCE about Tears for Fears http://www.azlyrics.com/...reakitdownagain.html - since I'm to old to think of Bow Wow. )
The three Kings Elendil, Isildur and Anarion (who were tall) came across the sea from foundering Numenor. Scattered by the storm they were split up into 3 groups of 3 ships each (hopefully in V formations, for easy counting  , and so they arrived in Middle-earth. With them they brought 7 stones (palantirs) and each of the 7 ships in the Dunedain fleet that carried a palantir had a banner with a single star. The Kings later adpted a device that had the 7 stars all on one banner.
Thats what Hammond and Scull's Reader's Companion makes of it, anyway.
I also note that there were jewels that can be bound around the brow associated with these guys - Aragorn wears one when he does his mini-reenactment of this arrival of the Kings business on a borrowed corsair ship, and Isildur (in the Unfinished Tales) is seen by the light of his star even though he's put the Ring on. Maybe there were 7 such stars? Would make sense to me But that's probably not canonical!
What's interesting is that I remember reading this before I had encountered any Sil catnip (or even the appendices) and it all seemed to make sense without making sense - it seemed perfectly reasonable for Gandalf to be waffling on in this way & only to explain a bit of it.
~~~~~~
Two Towers Read-through: Now looking for volunteers to lead chapters in Book IV: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=878725#878725
The Book III read-through links!:
week started # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
13-Sep-15 # I # The Departure of Boromir # MirielCelebel http://goo.gl/zpn7Rg
20-Sep-15 # II # The Riders of Rohan # Brethil (Part 1) http://goo.gl/yKNv7E (2) http://goo.gl/mxesBG
27-Sep-15 # III # The Uruk-hai # cats16 http://goo.gl/LUWJi1
04-Oct-15 # IV # Treebeard # Mikah http://goo.gl/2CqCXS
11-Oct-15 # V # The White Rider # Entwife Wandlimb http://goo.gl/VXb2Ni
18-Oct-15 # VI # The King of the Golden Hall # squire (Part 1) http://goo.gl/cpEvnI, (2) http://goo.gl/BBTzvR, (3) http://goo.gl/yN7QLq, (4) http://goo.gl/7726S3 (5) http://goo.gl/VC7Abc
25-Oct-15 # VII # Helm's Deep # arithmancer (Part 1) http://goo.gl/E6gVUC, (2) http://goo.gl/5aRuq0
01-Nov-15 # VIII # The Road to Isengard # Darkstone (Part 1)http://goo.gl/rdE1xG (2) http://goo.gl/54rxDw (3)http://goo.gl/Y0ZDwz (4) http://goo.gl/XVgXCx (5) http://goo.gl/Ph0O7k
08-Nov-15 # IX # Flotsam and Jetsam # Enanito (Part 1) http://goo.gl/GddHbU (2) http://goo.gl/5Z6MQU
15-Nov-15 # X # The Voice of Saruman # jochenkeen (Part 1) http://goo.gl/1voDsc (2)http://goo.gl/JONRh2 (3) http://goo.gl/EIeL6B
22-Nov-15 # XI # The Palantir # Elizabeth (Part 1) http://goo.gl/m4SYVO (2) http://goo.gl/7rB38s (3)http://goo.gl/cI7Vmt
Book IV starts 3 January 2016!!
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Nov 26 2015, 7:32am
Post #6 of 42
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Announcement: Taking Thursday off!
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It's a holiday in USA. I'll be back with Palantir #4 on Friday!
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Nov 26 2015, 8:06am
Post #8 of 42
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Saruman did, IMO, have a full, legal right to use the Palantír, as an authorized agent of Gondor. The problem seems to be that Sauron, having gained possession of the Ithil Stone, can communicate directly with him. Saruman is, I think, "grey" in the sense that he maintains the illusion that he is pursuing the Noble Cause by obtaining intelligence from the Enemy, seeing himself as a sort of double agent. In fact, he's being played by Sauron, until Gandalf (with an assist from Grima) upsets the game.
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squire
Half-elven
Nov 26 2015, 3:23pm
Post #9 of 42
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Does Saruman still tell himself he is a "double agent" by the time of this story?
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That is, of course, the story he tells Gandalf as recounted at the Council of Elrond. But even then Gandalf rejects this as a lie: Saruman is out for himself and knows it. The "Noble Cause" (the defeat of Sauron and the protection of the Free Peoples) has been replaced by the "Saruman Cause" (the replacement of Sauron by Saruman, and the enslavement of the Free Peoples).
Now it is naturally impossible to read Saruman's mind (or Sauron's, for that matter) as to what he tells himself his motivation is. But the point of characters like Gandalf, Galadriel, and Faramir is to show us that truly good people (serving the "Noble Cause") always doubt their own motivations and constantly question their actions against an objective standard of Good laid down, originally, by the Valar on behalf of the One. I don't think we should be giving Saruman the credit of being "grey" (i.e., torn between good and evil) at this late stage in his moral degradation.
The "greys", so to speak, are Denethor and Boromir and their like.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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squire
Half-elven
Nov 26 2015, 4:44pm
Post #10 of 42
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"We [the Council] had not yet given thought to the fate of the palantíri of Gondor in its ruinous wars."
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The great white Council of the Wise and the Fair reviews the minutes of its past meetings:
"We had no idea who the Necromancer was - some Major Evil Magician or other. You know."
"We had no idea he was setting up again in Mordor after being driven out of Mirkwood. It was quite a shock."
"We had no idea which Great Ring (as it clearly was from the first, we knew) the hobbit had found, although all but the One were pretty much accounted for. But we figured a gold ring, denser than stone and unable to roll, lying in a muddy river bed, would have floated 400 miles downstream by now."
"We had no idea about the Seeing Stones of Gondor, although the only three of these super-powerful, super-magical things known to exist in the South were in Minas Tirith (Denethor), Orthanc (Saruman), and either Minas Morgul or by now, Barad-dur (Sauron). Not a big deal."
At the risk of some disloyalty, I am sometimes tempted to wonder just what the Council did give thought to over the many centuries of its meetings.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Nov 26 2015, 9:49pm
Post #11 of 42
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Everything seems so obvious in retrospect, doesn't it?
We actually don't know that the Council was a regularly meeting body, or if they were just summoned on rare occasions to consider some particular question. Ad hoc meetings like this tend to focus only on the question they were called to consider, up to the point of saying, "Ok, let's try this and see how it goes." In the case of the Palantíri, no one really though that Saruman was communicating with Sauron until very recently, and there was no incentive to consider the fate of Gondor's stones at all. Out of sight out of mind.
When did they first know that Saruman was communicating with Sauron? Gandalf reported at the Council of Elrond that Saruman had turned to what he called "The Power" (of Mordor), but it seems to me that the level of communication that was just revealed is pretty new information. There are lots of ways that Sauron could have been influencing Saruman, aren't there?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Nov 26 2015, 10:57pm
Post #12 of 42
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We actually don't know that the Council was a regularly meeting body, or if they were just summoned on rare occasions to consider some particular question.
We only know of a handful of White Council meetings, which suggests that the members only gathered when an event or question of particular significance brought itself to the attention of the Council. We do know that the Councils of the Wise predate the White Council that included the Istari and began during the Second Age with the founding of Imladris by Elrond.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Nov 27 2015, 12:02am
Post #13 of 42
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I don't think even Saruman totally knew
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Of what his relationship with Sauron was. I think that at first he was a genuine traitor, just deciding to jump ships, possibly because he saw no other future in ME than a Sauron dominated one, or maybe he began to like. Ht e idea of power itself just for itself. But then when he saw that there was a chance of becoming the Ringlord he thought this would be good for him. Even in his later stages Saruman must have known that he couldn't challenge Mordor without,the Ring. I think it interesting what would have become of Saruamn had Sauron conquered. Would Sauron have just dispensed with him? Or maybe Saruman could have crawled, grovelled, used the power of his voice to get back into Sauron's favour.
(This post was edited by Hamfast Gamgee on Nov 27 2015, 12:03am)
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Nov 27 2015, 12:10am
Post #14 of 42
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I wonder why at this middle stage in the story Tolkien decided to introduce a new set of mysterious magical devices? Was it just that he thought the tale needed it? These Palantari whilst less in power where actually older that the One Ring. One other thing about them was, now that I think about it, what was Aragorn's claim based upon? If they were an Elven created device why did he have a claim? I don't think that in the past Feanor or his sons where that friendly with Man.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Nov 27 2015, 1:08am
Post #15 of 42
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As I tried to express in the paragraph before #4 above, I'm not entirely buying Gandalf's bit of history. It really doesn't make sense. The Seven Stones, each with its unique connectivity, is perfectly suited to the use of the Numenorians, yet was designed thousands of years before by someone who couldn't possibly have foreseen the needs of Numenorians to govern Middle Earth. I find it very difficult to imagine a "chain of custody" from Fëonor to the Kings to whom they belonged in the 3rd Age.
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squire
Half-elven
Nov 27 2015, 2:37am
Post #16 of 42
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The Eldar gave the stones to Elendil's dad, to use to communicate with Elvenhome from Numenor.
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To the degree that Gandalf's account doesn't make sense to you, I guess it would be because the palantiri were an invention of Tolkien's during the writing of Book III. He had therefore not mentioned them in all of his earlier tales about Feanor and the craftsmen of the Noldor. The Stones don't appear in the Quenta Silmarillion texts, even though Tolkien did go back to the QS after completing LotR and retrofit his other new inventions like Galadriel, the Ents, and the Druedain. Thus we have no idea what use Feanor may have made of the palantiri, although I can imagine easily enough a somewhat mundane network of stones for social and clan communications between the various kings, houses, and nations of the Elves in Aman and Tol Eressea (in fact, there is a cryptic note in one of Tolkien’s writings on the palantiri that a “Master Stone” existed – and still exists! – on Tol Eressea).
So we don’t know why the Elves made the palantirs, or how many they made. But we do have some indications from Tolkien of how the Kingdoms of Men in Exile obtained the Seven that they took to Middle-earth. He did take the time to compose his Akallabeth, the tale of the Downfall of Numenor, with the palantiri in mind:
…and the Faithful put aboard their wives and their children, and their heirlooms, and great store of goods. Many things there were of beauty and power, such as the Númenóreans had contrived in the days of their wisdom, vessels and jewels, and scrolls of lore written in scarlet and black. And Seven Stones they had, the gift of the Eldar; but in the ship of Isildur was guarded the young tree, the scion of Nimloth the Fair. - "Akallabeth", The Silmarillion.
For additional explanation, we find this note in the Afterword-style text included in the Sil, which covers (one might say) the Elven point of view of how The Lord of the Rings plays out:
These stones were gifts of the Eldar to Amandil, father of Elendil, for the comfort of the Faithful of Númenor in their dark days, when the Elves might come no longer to that land under the shadow of Sauron. – “Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", The Silmarillion.
So that’s the best we can put together: the Eldar (Who? Which one or which group?) gave Elendil’s father the Seven Stones, to help him commune with his friends, the Elves of Tol Eressea, in a dark age when Ar-Pharazon forbade Men to welcome Elven visitors. Why seven? Why (as the Unfinished Tales essay “The Palantiri” tells us) were some larger and more powerful than others?
As usual, Tolkien holds his cards close to his vest. But this passage from one of his letters does give us a bit of his mind on how, and why, he invented things for his legendarium that had had no place in the tales up until the moment of invention:
[When beginning the writing of the LotR] I knew nothing of the Palantíri, though the moment the Orthanc-stone was cast from the window, I recognized it, and knew the meaning of the 'rhyme of lore' that had been running in my mind: seven stars and seven stones and one white tree. These rhymes and names will crop up; but they do not always explain themselves. - Letter 163, 6/7/55.
Got it? Tolkien already had the verse about “seven stones” in his head – before he had invented what the seven stones were! As he said about a lot of his creativity, language drove story, not the other way around.
And why are the stones so hard to imagine in the hands of the Elves of the First Age? I think it’s because the primary feature of the stones that first appealed to Tolkien was the one for which he had no actual use in the story as it then developed. Several times in his texts and notes he mentions that the stones primarily give visions of things far away, in distance or in time. (Their use as telepathic media is secondary, as that requires two users to be in accord.) What, in time? No one in the story uses the stones to look back in time – they use the stones to see what’s going on in the war, in the present. Yet Tolkien distinctly preferred the time-travel feature, as we know from his deep fascination with ancient stories, legends, lost histories, and generally ‘distant vistas’ of story-background. He would have used the palantir to look back, to meet Feanor as it were, just as his stand-in Gandalf would have.
There are two quit diff. emotions: one that moves me supremely and I find small difficulty in evoking: the heart-racking sense of the vanished past (best expressed by Gandalf's words about the Palantir); and the other the more 'ordinary' emotion, triumph, pathos, tragedy of the characters. That I am learning to do, as I get to know my people, but it is not really so near my heart, and is forced on me [by having to write the stories] – Letter 96, 1/30/45.
And yet – as you say – why would Feanor and the First Age Elves devise stones for seeing into the past? They are immortal, and have a living memory of what has passed. They can walk in that memory whenever they wish (so Legolas tells us). The palantiri that Feanor devised have no obvious role to play in his world – but they have a deep meaning for the world of the Kingdoms in Exile. Whether on the doomed island of Numenor or in the widely-separated settlements of Arnor and Gondor in Middle-earth, Elendil and his heirs were haunted by a memory of a lost paradise and kinship with the Eldar of times long gone by. The seven stones were invented to let them look back to those times - invented by Tolkien, not by Feanor.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
(This post was edited by squire on Nov 27 2015, 2:38am)
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Enerdhil
Registered User
Nov 27 2015, 3:53am
Post #17 of 42
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Sithaloctha is the Elvish name for the Pleiades, the Seven Stars that were sparks from the forge of Aulë. The Palantíri, I think, could have been made by Fëanor sometime after the unchaining of Melkor, and was instructed in their devices by Melkor; for it is said that the Noldor took delight in the hidden knowledge he could reveal to them. Perhaps even Húrin was tormented to see through a stone with qualities similar to a Palantír, but was corrupted by Morgoth.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Nov 27 2015, 5:28am
Post #19 of 42
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It pretty much has to be the Pleiades.
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There are Elvish names for most of the major stars and planets, and as soon as we see a group of seven, that's an immediate connection, even if there have never been exactly seven stars visible in that cluster.
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Nov 27 2015, 5:28am)
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Enerdhil
Registered User
Nov 27 2015, 7:19am
Post #20 of 42
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It too could be the Great Bear, or the Sickle of the Valar, a sign of Doom, which "was swinging bright above the shoulders of Bree-hill."
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squire
Half-elven
Nov 27 2015, 2:13pm
Post #21 of 42
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I don't think we are meant to see the palantiri as evil in any way.
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They represent knowledge, craft, and curiosity, as well as nostalgia and loneliness - all qualities that characterize the conflicts of the Noldor from the First Age, and qualities which Morgoth was able, as you say, to pervert into evil. But I think Tolkien says somewhere in his notes that the Seeing Stones were not evil in themselves, and should not be thought of as such. There is even a quote about how, in Middle-earth, anything can be turned to evil if someone wishes it - yet nothing is evil inherently, at its creation.
If Morgoth used a far-seeing magic to torment Hurin, you're right to note that this is reminiscent of the magic of the Stones - nice catch! - but that does not mean that the Stones were made with Melkor's art. There is another source of invention and creation at hand, from which we are told that Feanor received his training and skill.
Opposed to Morgoth's evil crafts were the Valar-Smith Aule's beneficient crafts, as well as Aule's godly ability to forgo possession of the art he made. At the peak of his career Feanor was unable to part with the Silmarils and that was his downfall; but he evidently gave freely to his folk all else that he made. The Stones were a free gift to the Dunedain, for instance, and did not bind the Men to the Elves except through the Men's own free will. There is no suggestion that the Stones of Gondor and Arnor were used for evil over thousands of years, until at last Sauron got hold of one.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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enanito
Rohan
Nov 27 2015, 6:12pm
Post #22 of 42
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Numenorean "Ar-" kings and the palantiri
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It's interesting that the Numenorean kings never made use of the Seeing Stones for anything evil. Even before Ar-Pharazôn and the direct influence of Sauron, with the "Ar-" kings all envying the undying lands and such, it seems they might have used the palantiri for their purposes. Obviously Elendil saw them as objects with a powerful use for good.
Just an artifact of the late-inclusion of the stones into the history of M.E.?
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Enerdhil
Registered User
Nov 27 2015, 9:27pm
Post #24 of 42
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'Tis Time that determines the fate of all things, and is the one bridge connecting the ever changing essence of Arda within the Circles of the World - to those Timeless Halls of the Firmament where was sung the Music of the Ainur. Now Aluin (Time), the oldest of the Ainur that dwelleth still with Ilúvatar, sang his device to be of the World without descending into it; and his thought was the vessel containing the Flame Imperishable, which sailed to the heart of the World, and to the vision gave Life and Reality. Fëanor fashioned the PalantÃri to function in the same manner, for the hearts of fire that stir within them, were of a light born before the Sun and Moon - the flames within being Timeless, giving vision to Time's invisible threads of fate from beyond the World.
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Meneldor
Valinor
Nov 28 2015, 3:17am
Post #25 of 42
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Why Feanor made the palantiri:
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Because he could.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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