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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Christian Rivers offers some wise cautions about some decisions in appendices
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Eruonen
Half-elven


Nov 26 2015, 4:47am

Post #1 of 42 (1633 views)
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Christian Rivers offers some wise cautions about some decisions in appendices Can't Post

....such as upside down bat flying Legolas....but, PJ was very excited about the scene....hence, it was in the film and now he says it was good decision and the audiences liked it. I don't know about that....
Bunny sled etc.


Arthael
Lorien


Nov 26 2015, 5:00am

Post #2 of 42 (1550 views)
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The bat is my fav leggy scene of the trilogy [In reply to] Can't Post

I genuinely enjoy Legolas's antics (my limit is the collapsing tower) BUT I do agree that PJ should've listened to his collaborators more. That said, these films are far better than the Star Wars prequels, so I hesitate to make any comparisons there ;)

I've only seen about 1/3rd of the appendices, I look forward to watching more once I have free time after the holidays,

"There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go."


Eruonen
Half-elven


Nov 26 2015, 5:07am

Post #3 of 42 (1551 views)
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But then, you have the fantastic scene with Bilbo and Gandalf just sitting [In reply to] Can't Post

after the battle....and thanks to Ian and then PJ and Martin, the scene was improved by dropping the dialogue....a gem of a scene.


Glorfindela
Valinor


Nov 26 2015, 7:44am

Post #4 of 42 (1475 views)
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Doubtful [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
....such as upside down bat flying Legolas....but, PJ was very excited about the scene....hence, it was in the film and now he says it was good decision and the audiences liked it. I don't know about that....
Bunny sled etc.


'Audiences liked it' – where does he get that impression? Who was gathering this information for him? Yes men? I've read numerous statements about the appalling zombie Legolas super-hero antics, and they are almost universally derided. Moreover, such antics get worse with every film he appears in. I think it's more a question of 'PJ was very excited about the scene', hence it was included.Unimpressed


moreorless
Gondor

Nov 26 2015, 9:10am

Post #5 of 42 (1434 views)
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I suspect Jacksons fear was that he was going over the same ground... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
....such as upside down bat flying Legolas....but, PJ was very excited about the scene....hence, it was in the film and now he says it was good decision and the audiences liked it. I don't know about that....
Bunny sled etc.


When it comes a lot of the action scenes in the Hobbit I think Jacksons fear was probably that he was going over the same ground he'd already covered with LOTR. Generally I get the sense that he's trying to latch onto anything with the Hobbit films that will allow him to try something new.

The end results are definitely a bit patchy, some material like say the Wargs/Eagles, the Forge scene or Raven Hill/Thorin vs Azog did I think work well and vitally so as there all climaxs to there respective films. Elsewere though a lot of the standard goblin killing often just seemed gratuitous and overlong Legolas vs Bolg itself wasn't that bad I spose either time although arguably distracting from the larger plot.


(This post was edited by moreorless on Nov 26 2015, 9:12am)


tattooed_dwarf
Rivendell


Nov 26 2015, 9:25am

Post #6 of 42 (1418 views)
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coolest leggy scene [In reply to] Can't Post

Still to me coolest scene with Legolas is on FotR fighting orcs at Amon Hên. Especially part where we have this wide shot where he quickly shoots arrows taking out many Orcs in rapid succession.


(This post was edited by tattooed_dwarf on Nov 26 2015, 9:25am)


adt100
Rohan


Nov 26 2015, 9:33am

Post #7 of 42 (1415 views)
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Kids, teens, non-book fans LOVE Legolas's moments! [In reply to] Can't Post

Some are a bit OTT for me and too frequent in the hobbit, but the wider audience, particularly the wider target audience, generally LOVE these moments from my experience. We on forums such as this are particularly bad for judging what 'the people' like imho.


Elarie
Grey Havens

Nov 26 2015, 1:49pm

Post #8 of 42 (1313 views)
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I enjoy the Legolas action scenes [In reply to] Can't Post

They're just fun and I think that's the whole point. If they had been left out of the movie I probably wouldn't have noticed or thought about it, but since they're in there, I have no problem enjoying them. Really, they are no sillier than the antics of Indiana Jones or James Bond or Luke Skywalker, etc. Just old fashioned movie fun.

__________________

Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.

(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)


Toukol
Bree

Nov 26 2015, 3:10pm

Post #9 of 42 (1267 views)
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It's not the masses who complain about those scenes... [In reply to] Can't Post

It's mostly the small group of die hard LOTR and TH fans who whine and moan about those legolas scenes. The majority of people loved that stuff. Out of the dzens of people I know who have seen the TH movies, I only know of one who displike those scenes.

I can take them or leave them. Some of it is a bit silly and over the top in TH (TDOS river battle), but TH should have a lighter tone to appeal more to a younger audience. The 6 movies get more serious as they progress, so that works for me. Nothing in BOFA bothered me, other than the upside down bat ride bit. I'm watching that wondering why didn't his arrows fall out of the quiver and bow fall off?


Glorfindela
Valinor


Nov 26 2015, 3:40pm

Post #10 of 42 (1251 views)
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I'd disagree with this [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Some are a bit OTT for me and too frequent in the hobbit, but the wider audience, particularly the wider target audience, generally LOVE these moments from my experience. We on forums such as this are particularly bad for judging what 'the people' like imho.


From what I've seen on other, more general film and other forums and in newspapers, MANY people dislike Legolas and his portrayal in this trilogy.


Glorfindela
Valinor


Nov 26 2015, 3:47pm

Post #11 of 42 (1246 views)
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Disagree [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It's mostly the small group of die hard LOTR and TH fans who whine and moan about those legolas scenes.

Some of it is a bit silly and over the top in TH (TDOS river battle), but TH should have a lighter tone to appeal more to a younger audience.


No, it's not actually 'mostly the small group of die hard LOTR and TH fans who whine and moan' about the OTT Legolas scenes. In fact, I would say it's largely exactly the opposite, from what I've seen and heard.

The problem with your second statement is that the third film in The Hobbit film is meant to be largely serious, especially towards the end, and including the most crass stupidity in the middle of the death scene of the key character in the film is completely inappropriate and jarring. And it doesn't make it appeal to a younger audience.

Fine if you like it – but to others including myself it displays a profound lack of judgement at the very least.


Eruonen
Half-elven


Nov 26 2015, 4:14pm

Post #12 of 42 (1229 views)
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It was nice to know that at least some of the major people had some [In reply to] Can't Post

reservations, but,, I get the impression that none of them dare push too hard. This is PJs show / company and it is not wise to rock the boat (probably true with any director). He also was winging it for 2/3ds of the shoot. It appears 95% of whatever GDT had prepared was set aside. He was looking for chance to illustrate key character moments and to add some fun. Obviously, some unkown % of the audience enjoyed those OTT scenes. These movies are not the same as Indiana Jones or Star Wars....they are rooted in existing books and this world.


Glorfindela
Valinor


Nov 26 2015, 4:30pm

Post #13 of 42 (1217 views)
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That's exactly it [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It was nice to know that at least some of the major people had some reservations, but,, I get the impression that none of them dare push too hard. This is PJs show / company and it is not wise to rock the boat (probably true with any director). He also was winging it for 2/3ds of the shoot. It appears 95% of whatever GDT had prepared was set aside. He was looking for chance to illustrate key character moments and to add some fun. Obviously, some unkown % of the audience enjoyed those OTT scenes. These movies are not the same as Indiana Jones or Star Wars....they are rooted in existing books and this world.


I think PJ really wanted to inject his idea of 'fun' into these films, and that with each film the 'fun' moments got more extreme. In the EE for film three especially, OTT moments, grossness and bloody scenes – his idea of 'fun' – are very evident. And I do also feel from what I've seen of the Appendices and other indications that he controls the content absolutely and any disagreement is disregarded (probably at the very least).


Omnigeek
Lorien


Nov 26 2015, 5:58pm

Post #14 of 42 (1182 views)
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Flying Legolas didn't bother me [In reply to] Can't Post

I gave up on being true to the book when they put the Azog subplot in and had Thorin (and much of the company) sporting such ridiculously short beards. After that, while I will voice complaints about various aspects if people ask (or there's a forum topic on it), I just decided to enjoy the trilogy as movies. The Legolas action scenes were just an expansion on his oliphaunt scene from LOTR -- cheap thrilling action no different from Balin's and Dwalin's "sleigh ride" or the ridiculous ride down the river.

Honestly, this thread is the first I've heard anyone complain about that particular Legolas scene.


Glorfindela
Valinor


Nov 26 2015, 6:08pm

Post #15 of 42 (1174 views)
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Well… [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I gave up on being true to the book when they put the Azog subplot in and had Thorin (and much of the company) sporting such ridiculously short beards.

Honestly, this thread is the first I've heard anyone complain about that particular Legolas scene.


I must assume you haven't been following comments on this film (or DoS with regard to the absurd jumping on people's heads). Look, for example, at the review from the Telegraph (UK) for a description of Legolas that chimes well with me…

As for 'being true to the book', that is a totally separate issue, which I am not arguing about at all here. It is the utterly absurd comic-book zombie Legolas that I am specifically referring to here.


Glorfindela
Valinor


Nov 26 2015, 6:13pm

Post #16 of 42 (1171 views)
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Indeed [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Still to me coolest scene with Legolas is on FotR fighting orcs at Amon Hên. Especially part where we have this wide shot where he quickly shoots arrows taking out many Orcs in rapid succession.


This scene just demonstrates to me how 'less can be more', something that PJ does not seem to understand at times, when he increasingly pushes the boundaries of his 'fun' moments (whether gross, OTT and/or unrealistic). Wink


Smaug the iron
Gondor


Nov 26 2015, 6:19pm

Post #17 of 42 (1166 views)
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It is also something fans don't understand at times [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
This scene just demonstrates to me how 'less can be more', something that PJ does not seem to understand at times

Fans wont more Beorn, more Dwarves,more Bilbo well less can be more.


Omnigeek
Lorien


Nov 26 2015, 6:29pm

Post #18 of 42 (1161 views)
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Yes, less can be more [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Fans wont more Beorn, more Dwarves,more Bilbo well less can be more.


I would have liked more Beorn, more Mirkwood (somewhat satiated by the EE), less Alfrid, less Azog/Bolg. I actually wouldn't have minded more Tauriel and didn't mind them bringing in Legolas (he presumably WAS in Mirkwood at the time albeit unnoticed by Bilbo), just without the love triangle aspect.

I'll agree, my favorite Legolas battle scenes were in FotR and at Helm's Deep. The oliphaunt-killing scene was just too Spider-man and BotFA went even more over the top -- but as a cheap action fan, it was fun to watch. Wink


Avandel
Half-elven


Nov 26 2015, 6:30pm

Post #19 of 42 (1162 views)
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It's not the first [In reply to] Can't Post

Just sayin' re "Honestly, this thread is the first I've heard anyone complain about that particular Legolas scene. "

As far as I recall, too, there were complaint threads because the first glimpse, more of less, of EE footage from the "preview" was more Legolas, and his bat.Shocked

IMO this thread is interesting, because it touches on stuff that seems to be impossible to determine - and it has annoyed me in the past when Philippa comes out with statements like "and now Tauriel is hugely popular" - because my first thought is popular with who? How do you know that? Do you think she's popular because she was given a lot of screen time, and therefore PR, or is there some sort of internal tracking going on? If so, how is the tracking being done? Or are you just saying that because?Unsure

It's tough, because my PERSONAL attitude towards Legolas in these films was "been there, done that". That a small cameo like Frodo's would have been welcome, but even the most outrageous stunts they could have come up with for Legolas - tap-dancing across a line of orcs, say - just didn't engage me, as I don't get engaged by his OTT stuff (unlike his grittier close-in work which I appreciate re OB and his ability) and by that time I was far more engaged with the newest additions to Middle Earth - Bilbo, Thorin, the Company, Beorn, even Legolas' Daddy.

So it's interesting to hear that audiences? Some groups in audiences? Folks outside TORn? Inside TORn? REALLY like all that stuff. Oddly it makes me feel a bit better about it, like there is a "legitimate" reason to include it, even tho it's not my cup of teaUnsure. Besides PJ being PJ and as he said, these ARE movies he was "going to make his way". And I do appreciate that PJ & co. were working VERY hard to not repeat themselves, which I think was very successfulHeart except I think the line "bred for one purpose" slipped by.Laugh I do remember seeing some YouTube clip of some fans literally bouncing with excitement at seeing Legolas in a trailer, and early on some critics/reviewers were in paroxysms of joy at the thought "hasn't aged a day" etc.Unsure


Avandel
Half-elven


Nov 26 2015, 6:45pm

Post #20 of 42 (1148 views)
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Agree [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
This scene just demonstrates to me how 'less can be more', something that PJ does not seem to understand at times, when he increasingly pushes the boundaries of his 'fun' moments (whether gross, OTT and/or unrealistic). Wink


Tho that footage of PJ eating brains or something out of a dummy's head came to my mind, re PJ. With a spoon.

Thankfully IMO the length and additions to the BOFA EE "dilute" some of my TE frustrations, and even IMO Legolas/Bolg was much improved (grittier). I suppose for me it will always go back to "I'd rather have these scenes of IMO exquisite beautyHeart - the hidden door, say - and put up with some IMO silliness, than another director who may stay more "on track" one day - but I'm less enthralled and the superlative cast won't be the same".






MedwedtoBeorn
Rivendell

Nov 26 2015, 7:09pm

Post #21 of 42 (1131 views)
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PJ strengths [In reply to] Can't Post

I think with any movie maker there will be things to love and not love. I love these movies but not as much as LotR but even though there were some big disappointments for me personally, there are things that are brilliant and that shine as or more brightly in these movies then the original trilogy. This comes from someone who loves GDT's movies and really was excited when he was helming the project and wanted him too.

PJ's visual imagination and world building are terrific. Some of the sets in this movie and location choices were better than some of what we saw in Rings. Even though I think GDT is an awesome world builder and designer and I really wanted to see his movies, I can't deny there is visually stunning material in the Hobbit trilogy. PJ also can shoot the huge set piece and battle movements maybe better than anyone and he also has an eye for the choreography of the smaller fight sequences. He is an excellent caster as evidenced by the actors and their performances and he also is brilliant at gently pushing and pulling an actor's best in their performance. Riddles and Bilbo/Smaug is some of the best in all six movies. The big elements of the story are in the screenplay too.

I also can agree with those that lament some of the OTT Legolas stuff, Legolas overuse at the expense of Hobbit novel characters, unresolved plots(i.e. morgul blade) as well as some of the bigger story deviations(Azog). I also wish he had more confidence in some of the source material(i.e. Beorn at the Battle of the Five Armies.) I am not for complete fidelity too the novel because there was some nice additional material other than LotR appendix inspired stuff. I loved some of the invented or enhanced material like Tauriel, the devlopment of Thranduil, Bard, the Master and Laketown.


Elarie
Grey Havens

Nov 26 2015, 8:13pm

Post #22 of 42 (1106 views)
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The single most unrealistic scene in the movie [In reply to] Can't Post

was not Legolas, or trolls or orcs or barrels, etc. It was that moment when Agog turned his back on Thorin to watch the eagles fly over and Thorin did NOT kill him. Compared to that, watching Leggie hang upside down from a bat was just business as usual. Anyone who has taken judo (in my case) or any other martial art knows that the moment when your opponent loses their concentration or glances away is the moment when you nail them. Thorin, of course, as an experienced warrior, would have had Azog's head off in a flash in real life, but of course in real life Azog never would have turned his back on Thorin in the first place. I can't help wondering what the stunt men on the set thought about that scene, but I guess from a story telling point of view it was important to pause for moment and introduce the eagles in a brief but beautiful shot.

__________________

Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.

(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)


Avandel
Half-elven


Nov 27 2015, 6:17pm

Post #23 of 42 (934 views)
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*Grins* skating the ice..... [In reply to] Can't Post

By that measure too....Thorin probably have taken Azog's head at Azanulbizar, if not re being a warrior, than simply IMO out of sheer rage - tho I just read something about not necessarily wanting to close with a dying or wounded opponent, as they may still do some damage. So no longer sure about that one....Unsure

I'm a bit more tolerant of the situation you mention, as it's brought up in the Appendices that warriors tire after a sustained bout, and the films were trying to get this across - also the footing is sketchy. Also Azog is pretty confident so just maybe, he would look. Contempt for his opponent - Thorin - seems to be Azog's failing.

Also Thorin is exhausted and he didn't know the eagles would show up, so I think that's the beginning of Thorin "assessing" and realizing some *unexpected* allies have just showed up. That there's a chance, here.....

(And Tauriel IMO wouldn't have been hollering for Kili, and Kili wouldn't have tried to strangle Bolg....and if I want to be really CHURLISHEvil I find it hard to believe Thranduil would let his only son go to Ravenhill and not follow, or Radagast would simply fly over Azog, and Fili wouldn't have gone into battle without a whole complement of knives, and so on.)

LOL I am sure stuntmen or trained military folks *sigh* a lot when seeing films.Cool But for me - if I had been being logical, these films would be 1)very short and 2)Beorn would have jumped on Azog from an eagle and killed him, and Dwalin would have been fishing a very cold Thorin out the water - hmm, that might work. Tho that's probably not EPIC enough.Evil


dormouse
Half-elven


Nov 27 2015, 7:14pm

Post #24 of 42 (921 views)
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Just trying to visualise that.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think I can picture the moment you mean, but could Thorin have cut Azog's head off? It's an awfully long way up.....


Avandel
Half-elven


Nov 27 2015, 7:44pm

Post #25 of 42 (909 views)
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Hmm - well tho.... [In reply to] Can't Post

One thing I love about the unequal height of Thorin and the orcs - IMO the fighting is "realistic" at least to me - Thorin makes a lot of low cuts and then takes a head and so on.TongueEvil

Then again, even if at that point Thorin kept his footing and cut Azog lower down, it probably wouldn't (I imagine) be a killing stroke and then he's really close to Azog which IMO is I guess the mistake Kili makes.

Nope, in thinking about the fight, I'm good with it.CoolHeart SO EPIC (and finally seeing some of the Appendices, I am just so unbelievably impressed with Richard Armitage. And while it may have been hard on him, it was wonderful for me to see how much fighting work he did, which IMO just adds so much to the effectiveness of the films.

I knew about the "casting controversy" but IMO PJ's instinct in casting RA paid off a thousand-fold. OMG!!!CoolTongueHeart)



LONG LIVE THE KING!!!!!

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