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Namarie' for now..
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Bombadil
Half-elven


Nov 25 2015, 6:30am

Post #1 of 27 (1309 views)
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Namarie' for now.. Can't Post

...For myself,
known as Bomby here...
it has become really frustrating to read
the on-going series of,
constant complaints,
from
"The Club of the Dissatisfied "

.those who
will NEVER
be satisfied
with the years of
efforts of the 100s
of World Class people
that worked on this,.. PJ Project.

THEIR back-breaking, often 24/7...EFFORTS?,
goes on & on..down through Cinema
History..

& yes.. PJ survived it.
but Andrew & Christopher did not.

..MASTER JACKSON will go
down that long & winding road,
yet grossly & too often
under-appreciated....?

which izzz
SOoo.
Sad
it's beyond belief?

BUT: it izzz really
SUPER nice
to know
those
of us, that can
get beyond
those who have
Steep Walls of Negativity..

....& WE emerge
Once There & Back again
into the Bright light of a New day.

...To those fine FANS?

{Bows Deeply}
your ever-lasting SERVANT
bom.

Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"

(This post was edited by Bombadil on Nov 25 2015, 6:41am)


dormouse
Half-elven


Nov 25 2015, 7:58am

Post #2 of 27 (1179 views)
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Hey - Bomby.... *waves* [In reply to] Can't Post

We're not all negative, you know.... Wink


DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 25 2015, 9:10am

Post #3 of 27 (1161 views)
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Isn't it interesting ... [In reply to] Can't Post

Someone (e.g. yourself) feels frustrated enough by the negative criticism to leave The Hobbit board. And yet, someone (e.g. myself) feels frustrated enough having to justify my negative criticism of the trilogy and so also leaves The Hobbit board.

The forum is big enough for everyone - people don't need to be told where they can take their opinions (whichever side of the fence you sit one). But that's fandom for you. Nobody can win when it comes to opinions.


Quote
..MASTER JACKSON will go
down that long & winding road,
yet grossly & too often
under-appreciated....?


I very much appreciate the love and care that all the production team went into creating The Hobbit trilogy. The attention to detail and the hours of work (and sleepless nights!) is clear throughout all the films; everything from the CGI to the set-dressers. Unfortunately, for me, The Hobbit isn't a good adaptation of The Hobbit. I find the last film particularly horrible because of bad story- and character related- choices, not because of lack of effort or a lack of understanding of the source material.

No doubt I'll get back into The Hobbit board when I've stopped being told that my opinions are less than anyone else's.

Smile


Arannir
Valinor


Nov 25 2015, 10:25am

Post #4 of 27 (1119 views)
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No reason to leave. [In reply to] Can't Post

There are many people here... some satisfied, some dissatisfied, somewhere between the two and few on the extremes of absolute love and absolute hate.

That is how forums work. But the huge majority is able to see both the positive and the negative in these movies, despite their overall feeling.

There are a lot of interesting discussions going on if one is willing to accept the views of others.

It would be a shame to lose your iconic posts. But you can't expect this to become a place of universal acclaim just ebcause PJ & Co put a lot of thought and work into these movies (that is something almost all people here appreciate, I think).



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



(This post was edited by Arannir on Nov 25 2015, 10:26am)


dormouse
Half-elven


Nov 25 2015, 11:06am

Post #5 of 27 (1100 views)
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Hello Daniel.. I've missed seeing you around.... [In reply to] Can't Post

And your opinions are lucid, fair and every bit as good as anyone else's (and that from someone who doesn't share a lot of them).

I've stayed away from The Hobbit forum for some weeks purely because I wanted to watch the EE without being told what the new scenes were (or, to be honest, hearing what other people thought of them). Now I have seen it, I'm back. I've been told here many times that I'm deluded for loving the films. You've had the same experience the other way round. Would be nice, wouldn't it, if we could just discuss the films without somehow being drawn into discussing one another - and if we could keep a sense of fun about it....


Glorfindela
Valinor


Nov 25 2015, 12:01pm

Post #6 of 27 (1081 views)
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I agree with you, mostly [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Someone (e.g. yourself) feels frustrated enough by the negative criticism to leave The Hobbit board. And yet, someone (e.g. myself) feels frustrated enough having to justify my negative criticism of the trilogy and so also leaves The Hobbit board.

The forum is big enough for everyone - people don't need to be told where they can take their opinions (whichever side of the fence you sit one). But that's fandom for you. Nobody can win when it comes to opinions.

I very much appreciate the love and care that all the production team went into creating The Hobbit trilogy. The attention to detail and the hours of work (and sleepless nights!) is clear throughout all the films; everything from the CGI to the set-dressers. Unfortunately, for me, The Hobbit isn't a good adaptation of The Hobbit. I find the last film particularly horrible because of bad story- and character related- choices, not because of lack of effort or a lack of understanding of the source material.

No doubt I'll get back into The Hobbit board when I've stopped being told that my opinions are less than anyone else's.Smile


It's a shame you've decided not to post very much here. I hold much of the same point of view as you do. I probably even like the films more than you do, because I think there are some absolutely superb things in them (among other things Thorin, who I think is so well played, and the brilliant visuals). However, despite some great casting and PJ's obvious dedication, I do feel PJ got somewhat lost in his own world, and his need to have 'extreme fun', while losing focus on essential elements of the plot. Perhaps he was – understandably – tired, and maybe he doesn't easily accept the views of others on the team, which I think I've seen hints of in the Appendices.

As far as I can see, there are many people who really like BoftA but strongly dislike elements of it, which affects their overall enjoyment of it. No one should take their criticism of the films personally, which it seems to me some people do. Moreover, to me, the fact that people have put 'back-breaking effort' into these films is neither here nor there. Many people do this in the course of often very valuable work – but generally without the financial rewards/recognition attained by those mentioned here.

Your arguments are always so well reasoned – I don't know who has told you that your 'opinions are less than anyone else's'. I certainly don't think so.


(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Nov 25 2015, 12:12pm)


Elarie
Grey Havens

Nov 25 2015, 12:27pm

Post #7 of 27 (1058 views)
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I've missed your posts [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry you're leaving, Bomby, and I hope you change your mind and come back to us. I've been hoping for some conversations about the art & design aspects on the new appendices, like the gorgeous leaf armor they made for Tauriel but that didn't fit Evangeline Lilly, or the clever way they made the tiled streets in Dale, etc. but other people don't seem very interested in those types of backstage things.

But whatever anyone else thinks of the Hobbit movies I love them Heart and they are the only DVD's that I never put away - they live permanently on the corner of my TV stand ready to be popped into the player at any time and I don't see that changing any time soon.

Be well. Smile

__________________

Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.

(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)


Noria
Gondor

Nov 25 2015, 1:28pm

Post #8 of 27 (1039 views)
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Sorry to hear that Bomby but I get it [In reply to] Can't Post

I too have been absent from the boards because I didn’t want the EE to be spoiled and also because of the unrelenting negativity. It’s all the same stuff, again and again. With the two previous Hobbit movies all that died down after a while but not this time. I have criticisms of BOTFA too but feel it’s impossible to express them because everything is so black and white and all one can do is defend.

Just for the record – I love all these movies, warts and all. I really enjoyed the journey back to Middle-earth on which PJ took us. I’m very grateful to and appreciative of PJ and all the cast and crew who worked so hard to produce something beautiful which, sadly for them, not everyone can see


malickfan
Gondor


Nov 25 2015, 1:30pm

Post #9 of 27 (1043 views)
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I don't see why you should feel compelled to stop posting Bomby [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm a relatively infrequent visitor to this forum, and I've always found your posts heartening (if rather confusing at times!) in their positiveness, you'll be a much missed character if you do leave Bomby I'm sure.

Without wishing to come across as rude, it kinda seems like you are overreacting

As Daniel said above, all forums naturally have a wide variety of opinions, and this forum and fanbase are wide and varied enough that there will naturally be differing opinions and arguments-some love these films (such as yourself) some hate them, and some are relatively indifferent (such as me), but a large proportion of us have spent years talking,arguing about and following these films/books etc, so there will always be passion and/or disappointment no matter which side of the fence you sit, wishing that everyone will always get along and be completely satisfied, whilst commendable was never going to happen...

As Daniel once again put it above:



Quote
I very much appreciate the love and care that all the production team went into creating The Hobbit trilogy. The attention to detail and the hours of work (and sleepless nights!) is clear throughout all the films; everything from the CGI to the set-dressers. Unfortunately, for me, The Hobbit isn't a good adaptation of The Hobbit. I find the last film particularly horrible because of bad story- and character related- choices, not because of lack of effort or a lack of understanding of the source material.


Though of us who were dissapointed in the films certainly understand and appreciate the love and effort that went into them (indeed it is partly this that makes the failings of this trilogy that much harder to bare) , but it doesn't change for me, what I perceive as significant (and at times very detrimental) flaws in the films, in terms of character and tone...and the many changes to the narrative that leave me, as a fan of the books and prior films in the franchise very cold as a viewer.



It's curious...I haven't been a regular poster on this forum for over a year...I came to a similar conclusion to you, as someone who wasn't overly fond of the films, I didn't see the point in continuing to post very often, as I felt my opinions weren't going to contribute to conversations, or be appreciated in a forum that I felt was at times, overtly slanted in the films favour (not that it was necessarily a bad thing)-a viewpoint I didn't really share personally...but I've come to the conclusion I was being a little churlish, all of us have opinions one way or the other on these films, and I suppose it is too their credit even the detractors get so fired up by talking about them...








dormouse
Half-elven


Nov 25 2015, 2:12pm

Post #10 of 27 (1017 views)
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I'm very interested in the backstage things.... [In reply to] Can't Post

... and will be happy to talk about them. The only problem is that I haven't watched the EE appendices yet so I don't know what they are!


Elarie
Grey Havens

Nov 25 2015, 2:39pm

Post #11 of 27 (999 views)
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Some very cool stuff [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you'll really enjoy it! Smile

And how I wish I could see everything in person, including the stuff that never made it into the movie. Beautiful, as always.

__________________

Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.

(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)


nusilver
Rohan


Nov 25 2015, 4:50pm

Post #12 of 27 (942 views)
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Really wish you were around more... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...For myself,
known as Bomby here...
it has become really frustrating to read
the on-going series of,
constant complaints,
from
"The Club of the Dissatisfied "

.those who
will NEVER
be satisfied
with the years of
efforts of the 100s
of World Class people
that worked on this,.. PJ Project.

THEIR back-breaking, often 24/7...EFFORTS?,
goes on & on..down through Cinema
History..

& yes.. PJ survived it.
but Andrew & Christopher did not.

..MASTER JACKSON will go
down that long & winding road,
yet grossly & too often
under-appreciated....?

which izzz
SOoo.
Sad
it's beyond belief?

BUT: it izzz really
SUPER nice
to know
those
of us, that can
get beyond
those who have
Steep Walls of Negativity..

....& WE emerge
Once There & Back again
into the Bright light of a New day.

...To those fine FANS?

{Bows Deeply}
your ever-lasting SERVANT
bom.

Crazy


The more people like you leave, the more people are here just to s*** all over the films, and the fewer of us who truly appreciate them are left. It makes it... let's just say, not fun to visit the forums. Hope to see you around again, soon -- I always wonder where you are when you're gone for such long stretches! Hope you enjoyed the final EE.

"It's like in the great stories, Mr. Frodo. The ones that really mattered. Full of darkness and danger, they were. And sometimes you didn't want to know the end. Because how could the end be happy? How could the world go back to the way it was when so much bad had happened? But in the end, it's only a passing thing, this shadow. Even darkness must pass. A new day will come. And when the sun shines it will shine out the clearer." - Samwise


Glorfindela
Valinor


Nov 25 2015, 5:13pm

Post #13 of 27 (924 views)
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I second your opinion [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Without wishing to come across as rude, it kinda seems like you are overreacting

As Daniel said above, all forums naturally have a wide variety of opinions, and this forum and fanbase are wide and varied enough that there will naturally be differing opinions and arguments-some love these films (such as yourself) some hate them, and some are relatively indifferent (such as me), but a large proportion of us have spent years talking,arguing about and following these films/books etc, so there will always be passion and/or disappointment no matter which side of the fence you sit, wishing that everyone will always get along and be completely satisfied, whilst commendable was never going to happen...

Though of us who were dissapointed in the films certainly understand and appreciate the love and effort that went into them (indeed it is partly this that makes the failings of this trilogy that much harder to bare) , but it doesn't change for me, what I perceive as significant (and at times very detrimental) flaws in the films, in terms of character and tone...and the many changes to the narrative that leave me, as a fan of the books and prior films in the franchise very cold as a viewer.

I've come to the conclusion I was being a little churlish, all of us have opinions one way or the other on these films, and I suppose it is too their credit even the detractors get so fired up by talking about them...


Very eloquently put. I actually think it would be a boring forum if everyone agreed with each other, and bowed at the feet of the makers of the films. For me, it is interesting to see a variety of opinions, some of which I agree with, some not.


cats16
Half-elven


Nov 25 2015, 5:29pm

Post #14 of 27 (909 views)
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*waves* Good to see you around! [In reply to] Can't Post

Your last main paragraph summarizes my thoughts quite well. And right now, I simply don't have the time/desire to post much related to the Hobbit films. I'll read occasionally, but, since I haven't watched any of them since BOTFA came out, I'd need another viewing as a refresher.

Maybe sometime over the next month I'll do a double-trilogy marathon and see how things feel.

Regardless, wonderful to see you 'round these parts. Need to catch up sometime. Smile

Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!




Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 25 2015, 9:01pm

Post #15 of 27 (850 views)
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Hi, Bombi! [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't feel it necessary to leave again. I do get a kick out of seeing TORNsibs complain about the negativity here and then seeing TORN derided at IMDb as an unreserved Peter Jackson lovefest. It's a bit surreal.

"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."


- Dream of the Endless


Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Nov 25 2015, 10:36pm

Post #16 of 27 (819 views)
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You've BEEN to the dark place???! [In reply to] Can't Post

*shudder*

Crazy

...and what's more...you've returned to us! Shocked

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen


Morthoron
Gondor


Nov 25 2015, 11:21pm

Post #17 of 27 (803 views)
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I was contrary years before you got here... [In reply to] Can't Post

...and I am sure I shall be contrary several years hence. Wink

Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 26 2015, 12:52am

Post #18 of 27 (771 views)
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The Dark Underbelly of IMDb [In reply to] Can't Post

I was a regular at certain IMDb boards (including the LotR ones) before I had even heard of TORN.

"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."


- Dream of the Endless


DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 26 2015, 7:22am

Post #19 of 27 (711 views)
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We probably agree more than we disagree. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
And your opinions are lucid, fair and every bit as good as anyone else's (and that from someone who doesn't share a lot of them).

I've stayed away from The Hobbit forum for some weeks purely because I wanted to watch the EE without being told what the new scenes were (or, to be honest, hearing what other people thought of them). Now I have seen it, I'm back. I've been told here many times that I'm deluded for loving the films. You've had the same experience the other way round. Would be nice, wouldn't it, if we could just discuss the films without somehow being drawn into discussing one another - and if we could keep a sense of fun about it....


I think AUJ is an excellent film which brought the audience straight back into Peter Jackson's fantastical world of Middle-earth, as well as serving Tolkien's vision wonderfully (even if the Talking Purse wasn't included!) I could watch the film over, and over, again. I also enjoy DOS, for the majority of it. I still think it should have started at the borders of Mirkwood and ended with the death of Smaug, and I fast-forward barrels out of bond. But regardless of those minor points, the film raises the stakes for the Quest of Erebor, and it is nice to have characters like Bard fleshed out. Unfortunately for me, BO5A is where the trilogy falls apart. It isn't The Hobbit, and it's cripplingly awful to watch. After LOTR and the first two Hobbit movies, I never thought I'd be "one of those people", but I can't stand the mess of the movie.

For me, The Hobbit trilogy is like a first draft of a book or journal article. All of the main content is there (a beginning, a middle, and an end), but there are portions of the story that are wearisome and dry, while other parts haven't been fully thought through resulting in nonsensical and superfluous storylines and characters. But like any first draft, there is (or was) potential in The Hobbit trilogy. Unfortunately, the fantastic movie that could-have-been has been made, it is just lost in the 3-film adaptation; it needed a second draft (or a second set of eyes).

But that's probably the biggest thing we disagree about. Wink


DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 26 2015, 7:29am

Post #20 of 27 (706 views)
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Both directly and indirectly. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Your arguments are always so well reasoned – I don't know who has told you that your 'opinions are less than anyone else's'. I certainly don't think so.


I've been hovering around the boards more frequently recently. Without pointing fingers, in the last fortnight alone I've lost count of the number of posts which have stated something along the lines of "if you don't like the movies read the book. Leave the forum for those of us that love them and appreciate them". Not the most pleasant message to be sending out for those of us who were genuinely disappointed in the trilogy.


DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 26 2015, 7:31am

Post #21 of 27 (705 views)
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Your signature has reminded me: [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!


Aren't we long overdue the next CHOW discussion? Maybe we can get the discussions out again to get rid of the (apparent?) stale atmosphere?


dormouse
Half-elven


Nov 26 2015, 8:43am

Post #22 of 27 (693 views)
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Funnily enough.... [In reply to] Can't Post

In a way I do agree with this, almost:

Quote

For me, The Hobbit trilogy is like a first draft of a book or journal article. All of the main content is there (a beginning, a middle, and an end), but there are portions of the story that are wearisome and dry, while other parts haven't been fully thought through resulting in nonsensical and superfluous storylines and characters. But like any first draft, there is (or was) potential in The Hobbit trilogy. Unfortunately, the fantastic movie that could-have-been has been made, it is just lost in the 3-film adaptation; it needed a second draft (or a second set of eyes).


Or at least, I know what you're saying. But what I'd say is that what the makers of The Hobbit needed to iron out most of the problems people have with it is more pre-production time, and that was the one thing they didn't have. You're seeing something that needed more thought and a more critical eye: I'm seeing something that is little short of miraculous given the circumstances in which it came about. I'm applauding what seems to me to be a fantastic achievement pulled off against the odds. Some of the things that bother other people really don't bother me. I genuinely enjoyed BotFA in the cinema just as I enjoyed AUJ and DoS and I enjoy the extended versions even more. And the things that do bother me, or could, I give a pass to because I know the film came so close to not being made at all, not once but time and again - and I wouldn't have missed it for worlds!



Eruonen
Half-elven


Nov 26 2015, 5:08pm

Post #23 of 27 (630 views)
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Regarding time, yes, as the appendices show, it was a very tight schedule [In reply to] Can't Post

with decisions on the fly....but, they took a year to consider BOFA for the reshoot period. Whatever criticisms there are for BOFA don't really reflect a lack of pre-production.

Bomby, you confuse writing and plot criticisms with effort. I don't know anyone who hasn't praised the dedicated efforts of the entire crew. The appendices are in many ways the most enjoyable part of the EEs.
We all paid for tickets and have bought discs - therefore - we all have informed opinions on the end product. Like any discussion, there are numerous opinions. Anyway, the fire will die down now since the last log has been put on the fire. It will have residual heat in the coals but few sparks.


dormouse
Half-elven


Nov 26 2015, 8:05pm

Post #24 of 27 (605 views)
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Well, yes and no... [In reply to] Can't Post

While it's true that BotFA had more time than the others - inevitably, being the last film - it wasn't a stand-alone story. I don't see how that extra time can be counted as pre-production because so many of the decisions had already been made for the first two films. The time they needed and were denied by circumstance was real pre-production time, before any filming had been done. That was when they should have been shaping the story and making basic decisions - like the number of films they were working on.


Eruonen
Half-elven


Nov 27 2015, 4:45am

Post #25 of 27 (557 views)
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I was referring to the battle planning itself.....they shot almost all of it in pick ups. [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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