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jochenkeen
The Shire
Nov 20 2015, 4:58pm
Post #1 of 11
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The Voice of Saruman Part 3 of 3
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“God creates out of nothing. Wonderful you say. Yes, to be sure, but he does what is still more wonderful: he makes saints out of sinners.”
Soren Kierkegaard
After discussing Saruman's character (in part 1) and magic versus rhetoric (in part 2), I'd now like to focus on the question of redemption... could Saruman be saved from himself?
At the beginning of this chapter, Gandalf emphasizes how dangerous it is to speak to Saruman; "A wild beast cornered is not safe to approach. And Saruman has powers you do not guess. Beware of his voice!" At the same time, Gandalf makes it clear that this risky enterprise is necessary, saying "Dangerous and probably useless; but it must be done." It is not until the chapter is almost over that Gandalf reveals the purpose behind this endevour: "I had my reasons for trying; some merciful and some less so... Great service he could have rendered."
Thus, it seems clear that Gandalf wanted to give Saruman a chance to redeem himself ("make amends" in Gandalf's words), and to provide assistance in the war against Sauron.
So my first question (a very broad one) is what sort of material assistance or advice do you think that Saruman could offer Gandalf? Insight into Sauron's doings? Distracting or misinforming Sauron? Magical assistance?
But there is a more thorny and interesting issue... the question of redeeming Saruman. One thing that I find peculiar about the LotR is that it is a story somewhat short on redemption. As Entwife Wandlimb pointed out in Part 2 of this discussion, treason is a recurring theme in the trilogy. But all this treason is not really balanced with much redemption. The lack of redemption is most interesting given Tolkien's profound faith. If Gollum is redeemed, it is a strange kind, seized in his last moments in a murderous and self-destructive frenzy. Perhaps Theoden is redeemed, but he was always more sinned against than sinner. Denethor certainly gets no redemption. And, ultimately, Saruman fails to grasp redemption either. (There are interesting arguments that Galadriel's refusal of the Ring is perhaps the greatest "redemption" in the trilogy -- one that links back to the original sins of the Noldor. But this assertion is complicated by the fact that Tolkien himself seems to have vacillated over whether Galadriel had been banned from returning to Valinor.)
Anyway... back to Saruman. Gandalf tells us that he was *almost* successful with Saruman, and that things "came to the balance of a hair." I found that statement astounding. I have searched and searched through the dialogue with Saruman, and I can find very little to suggest that Saruman came within a hair of coming out of Orthanc.
So my next question for you is: what did Gandalf see that I have missed? Where and when did Saruman almost relent?
And do you think I'm correct, and that the trilogy is short on redemption? Why did Tolkien want Saruman to cling to his evil and treasonous ways?
PS - thanks for the great and enlightening discussions - I'm so happy I did this... I learned so much from all of you!
Matthew Sullivan
Oldenhammer in Toronto
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Entwife Wandlimb
Lorien
Nov 20 2015, 6:25pm
Post #2 of 11
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hesitation and merits of being merciful
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Thanks so much for leading, jochenkeen! It has been a delight.
Where and when did Saruman almost relent?
Before he could conceal it, they saw through the mask the anguish of a mind in doubt, loathing to stay and dreading to leave its refuge. For a second he hesitated...
And do you think I'm correct, and that the trilogy is short on redemption?
I think your observation that very few who are offered redemption seize it is part of Tolkien's point -- that mercy must be extended, even at great cost, even if it seems futile. I think part of the reason is that the offering of mercy affects the merciful as much as the recipient. Consider Sam and his suspicions of Gollum -- how he hardened his heart. To be merciless is a form of despair and a lack of hope. It also takes humility to offer mercy -- Frodo had compassion for Gollum, inspired by Gandalf.
Even Gollum was not wholly ruined. He had proved tougher than even one of the Wise would have guessed – as a Hobbit might. There was a little corner of his mind that was still his own, and light came through it, as through a chink in the dark: light out of the past, it was actually pleasant, I think, to hear a kindly voice again, bringing up such memories of wind, and trees, and sun on the grass, and such forgotten things. Gandalf makes the point that I think could apply to all who have life in LotR -- that as long as there is life, there is hope of redemption. Aragorn pities the wild men of the East who were misled and gives them a chance of redemption. Even the dead get a second chance in one instance: "The Dead awaken;/ for the hour is come for the oathbreakers"
why have ye come?
And a voice was heard out of the night that answered him, as if from far away: To fulfil our oath and have peace.
Then Aragorn said: "The hour is come at last. Now I go to Pelargir upon Anduin, and ye shall come after me. And when all this land is clean of the servants of Sauron, I will hold the oath fulfilled, and ye shall have peace and depart for ever. For I am Elessar, Isildur's heir of Gondor."
It seems Saruman may have had one last chance at redemption after death, or longed for it too late:
To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.
I suppose Tolkein allows some characters to remain unredeemed to reflect reality, and/or to be a cautionary tale on the perils of pride.
What would you say about Eowyn? Was her redemption in killing the Witch King or did it come about through the compassion of Faramir? More complicated than Saruman or Denethor, I think.
(This post was edited by Entwife Wandlimb on Nov 20 2015, 6:37pm)
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enanito
Rohan
Nov 20 2015, 6:27pm
Post #3 of 11
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Did Gandalf have a Plan B if the ring was not destroyed?
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What sort of material assistance or advice do you think that Saruman could offer Gandalf?
Gandalf (and others) have posited that unless the Ring is destroyed, M.E. cannot avoid coming under the sway of Mordor's power. Hence any assistance, while having merit, ultimately cannot alter this outcome.
So I was wondering whether Gandalf was also considering Saruman's help in ways that stretched outside the scope of the War of the Ring (if Gandalf was indeed resolved to the futility of overcoming Sauron by force). Of course having someone like Saruman on your side is always much better than not, even if it doesn't change your outlook on the eventual outcome of the war.
Possibly having a redeemed Saruman would be a great bulwark if the "fool's hope" of Frodo traversing Mordor to throw the Ring into the Cracks of Doom failed? I could of course be reading beyond any of Gandalf's intentions, he may have been fully focused on the events at hand and how Saruman could help them in the here-and-now.
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StingingFly
Lorien
Nov 21 2015, 1:15am
Post #4 of 11
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It was by the devices of Saruman that the Necromancer was driven from Dul Guldur...In Gandalf's eyes Saruman had the knowledge/power to overcome Sauron once before. Saruman also knew the mind and inner workings of Mordor (as his empire was just a smaller scale version of Sauron's). He would have been a valuable asset.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Nov 21 2015, 5:42am
Post #5 of 11
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The Valar find that they can deal with his agents (sc. armies, Balrogs, etc.) piecemeal. So that they come at last to Utumno itself and find that 'the Morgoth' has no longer for the moment sufficient 'force' (in any sense) to shield himself from direct personal contact. Manwe at last faces Melkor again, as he has not done since he entered Arda. Both are amazed: Manwe to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he has now less personal force than Manwe, and can no longer daunt him with his gaze.
Either Manwe must tell him so or he must himself suddenly realize (or both) that this has happened: he is 'dispersed'.
But the lust to have creatures under him, dominated, has become habitual and necessary to Melkor, so that even if the process was reversible (possibly was by absolute and unfeigned selfabasement and repentance only) he cannot bring himself to do it. As with all other characters there must be a trembling moment when it is in the balance: he nearly repents - and does not, and becomes much wickeder, and more foolish.
-Myths Transformed, History of Middle-earth X
“God creates out of nothing. Wonderful you say. Yes, to be sure, but he does what is still more wonderful: he makes saints out of sinners.”
-Soren Kierkegaard
”We have come from God (continued Tolkien), and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, will also reflect a splintered fragment of the true light, the eternal truth that is with God. Indeed only by myth-making, only by becoming a 'sub-creator' and inventing stories, can Man aspire to the state of perfection that he knew before the Fall.”
-JRR Tolkien to CS Lewis, quoted by Humphrey Carpenter in J.R.R. Tolkien: A Biography
After discussing Saruman's character (in part 1) and magic versus rhetoric (in part 2), I'd now like to focus on the question of redemption... could Saruman be saved from himself?
How many Gandalfs does it take to change a light bulb?
Just one, but it takes a long time, and the light bulb really has to want to change.
(And in the case of dim bulb Saruman, considerably longer.)
At the beginning of this chapter, Gandalf emphasizes how dangerous it is to speak to Saruman; "A wild beast cornered is not safe to approach. And Saruman has powers you do not guess. Beware of his voice!" At the same time, Gandalf makes it clear that this risky enterprise is necessary, saying "Dangerous and probably useless; but it must be done."
Due process: As King Edward III ruled in 1363, “No man be taken, imprisoned, or put out of his free-hold without process of the law”. That's also in the 5th Amendment, the 14th Amendment, and the 4th edition of Civilization.
It is not until the chapter is almost over that Gandalf reveals the purpose behind this endevour: "I had my reasons for trying; some merciful and some less so... Great service he could have rendered."
Thus, it seems clear that Gandalf wanted to give Saruman a chance to redeem himself ("make amends" in Gandalf's words), and to provide assistance in the war against Sauron.
So my first question (a very broad one) is what sort of material assistance or advice do you think that Saruman could offer Gandalf?
Breed more Uruk-hai but for Good? (“Orc-flesh!”) Recruit the Dunlendings? ("Easterlings and Haradhrim are coming to take your land!!") Use Crebain as spies and scouts? (And how many Crebain would be needed to carry two starved hobbits out from Mount Doom? Not to mention carry one Istari in to guide them?)
Insight into Sauron's doings?
That could be a two-edged sword. What Saruman knows of Sauron’s doings is only what Sauron wants him to know. So the Captains of the West might more likely fall for Sauron’s disinformation than gain any real intelligence.
Distracting or misinforming Sauron?
Possibly, but I’d bet Sauron already has Saruman’s palantir manner all figured out, so any change would come through and Sauron would catch it and use it to triple-cross and subvert the West.
Even Magical assistance?
Possibly, but like Manwe found Melkor greatly lessened, so does Gandalf find Saruman.
But there is a more thorny and interesting issue... the question of redeeming Saruman. One thing that I find peculiar about the LotR is that it is a story somewhat short on redemption. As Entwife Wandlimb pointed out in Part 2 of this discussion, treason is a recurring theme in the trilogy.
“I'm dishonest, and a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest. Honestly. It's the honest ones you want to watch out for, because you can never predict when they're going to do something incredibly... stupid.”
-Captain Jack Sparrow
Anyway... back to Saruman. Gandalf tells us that he was *almost* successful with Saruman, and that things "came to the balance of a hair." I found that statement astounding. I have searched and searched through the dialogue with Saruman, and I can find very little to suggest that Saruman came within a hair of coming out of Orthanc.
So my next question for you is: what did Gandalf see that I have missed? Where and when did Saruman almost relent?
'Will you not come down? Isengard has proved less strong than your hope and fancy have made it. So may other things in which you still have trust. Would it not be well to leave it for a while? To turn to new things, perhaps? Think well, Saruman! Will you not come down?'
A shadow passed over Saruman's face; then it went deathly white. Before he could conceal it, they saw through the mask the anguish of a mind in doubt, loathing to stay and dreading to leave its refuge. For a second he hesitated, and no one breathed. Then he spoke, and his voice was shrill and cold. Pride and hate were conquering him.
And do you think I'm correct, and that the trilogy is short on redemption?
I think Tolkien is more concerned about the nature of Evil, how Power and Domination are addictive, and how the choice of Grey over White can be even more irredeemably corrupting than that of Black over White.
Why did Tolkien want Saruman to cling to his evil and treasonous ways?
‘Well, Sir,’ I said, ‘That also needs explaining. What do they choose, these souls who go back [on the bus to hell] (I have yet seen no others)? And how can they choose it?’
‘Milton was right,’ said my Teacher. ‘The choice of every lost soul can be expressed in the words “Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.” There is always something they insist on keeping even at the price of misery. There is always something they prefer to joy—that is, to reality. Ye see it easily enough in a spoiled child that would sooner miss its play and its supper than say it was sorry and be friends. Ye call it the Sulks. But in adult life it has a hundred fine names—Achilles’ wrath and Coriolanus’ grandeur, Revenge and Injured Merit and Self- Respect and Tragic Greatness and Proper Pride.’
‘Then is no one lost through the undignified vices, Sir? Through mere sensuality?’
‘Some are, no doubt. The sensualist, I’ll allow ye, begins by pursuing a real pleasure, though a small one. His sin is the less. But the time comes on when, though the pleasure becomes less and less and the craving fiercer and fiercer, and though he knows that joy can never come that way, yet he prefers to joy the mere fondling of unappeasable lust and would not have it taken from him. He’d fight to the death to keep it. He’d like well to be able to scratch; but even when he can scratch no more he’d rather itch than not.’
-C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (1946)
PS - thanks for the great and enlightening discussions - I'm so happy I did this...
Thanks for leading! Great job!!
I learned so much from all of you!
Vice versa!
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Nov 22 2015, 8:54am
Post #8 of 11
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It's probably just realistic: doing a 180-degree moral equivalent 'bootleggers turn' is hard, especially at the kinds of speeds Saruman has reached. Like Macbeth, it's so much easier to go on than to go back.
So no easy fixes: Gandalf would make a terrible televangelist (or an unusually good one, depending on your point of view...)
Often I think, Tolkien characters die as part of their redemption (though just dying in itself does not qualify : Thorin, Boromir, maybe Turin.
Sometimes redemption has to wait for a later generation: Aragorn labouring as Isildur's heir to repair Isildur's fault. The elves have some repairing to do, too...
And who knows what is going through Smeagol/Gollumn's head as he goes over the edge?
~~~~~~
Two Towers Read-through: Now looking for volunteers to lead chapters in Book IV: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=878725#878725
The Book III schedule and links:
13-Sep-15 # I # The Departure of Boromir # MirielCelebel http://goo.gl/zpn7Rg
20-Sep-15 # II # The Riders of Rohan # Brethil (Part 1) http://goo.gl/yKNv7E (2) http://goo.gl/mxesBG
27-Sep-15 # III # The Uruk-hai # cats16 http://goo.gl/LUWJi1
04-Oct-15 # IV # Treebeard # Mikah http://goo.gl/2CqCXS
11-Oct-15 # V # The White Rider # Entwife Wandlimb http://goo.gl/VXb2Ni
18-Oct-15 # VI # The King of the Golden Hall # squire (Part 1) http://goo.gl/cpEvnI, (2) http://goo.gl/BBTzvR, (3) http://goo.gl/yN7QLq, (4) http://goo.gl/7726S3 (5) http://goo.gl/VC7Abc
25-Oct-15 # VII # Helm's Deep # arithmancer (Part 1) http://goo.gl/E6gVUC, (2) http://goo.gl/5aRuq0
01-Nov-15 # VIII # The Road to Isengard # Darkstone (Part 1)http://goo.gl/rdE1xG (2) http://goo.gl/54rxDw (3)http://goo.gl/Y0ZDwz (4) http://goo.gl/XVgXCx (5) http://goo.gl/Ph0O7k
08-Nov-15 # IX # Flotsam and Jetsam # Enanito (Part 1) http://goo.gl/GddHbU (2) http://goo.gl/5Z6MQU
15-Nov-15 # X # The Voice of Saruman # jochenkeen (Part 1) http://goo.gl/1voDsc (2)http://goo.gl/JONRh2
22-Nov-15 # XI # The Palantir # Elizabeth
Book IV starts 3 January 2016!!
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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enanito
Rohan
Nov 24 2015, 3:32pm
Post #9 of 11
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I really really really wanted to see this on the big-screen
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Now that the chapter discussion is done and we've moved on, just adding my own 2 cents about this chapter in general.
I have always loved the encounter between Saruman and Gandalf at this point, with all the major players gathered together. To me, this is the true climax of TTT, and as a reader this scene always produces wonderful mental images of what it could have been like.
After the FOTR movie, looking forward to this scene in TTT was something I couldn't wait to see. Yeah all the battles and stuff, sure, but this scene in particular. I remember being quite bummed at the end of the movie when I realized this encounter wasn't there.
On the bright side, now this scene will forever live in my memory only as Tolkien wrote it and as I imagine it, without any "contamination" (as some might call it!) by a certain director...
Ahhh, I know it's not the movie forum, but I feel much better now :)
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Nov 24 2015, 7:15pm
Post #10 of 11
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You can see it at the beginning of RotK-EE (or on YouTube). Not quite identical (ends differently), but mostly satisfying. Sadly, since it was cut from the Theatrical version, Christopher Lee did not receive some of the awards that the rest of the cast received.
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MedwedtoBeorn
Rivendell
Nov 26 2015, 5:02pm
Post #11 of 11
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The Hobbit certainly provides numerous opportunities that are acted on. Thorin, Dain, Bard and Thranduil come to mind. At some point all set aside their pride and in Thorin's case, he pays the ultimate price in his redemptive act. Possibly Beorn receives redemption too depending on his origin. In the History of the Hobbit, John Rateliff posits that Beorn is of immense age and possibly under some geas of the Valar which obligation is fulfilled by his involvement in the Battle of Five Armies.
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