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Al Carondas
Lorien
Nov 24 2015, 2:27am
Post #27 of 38
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I don't think that it is possible that Gandalf intended for Pippin to look into the stone. Not only would Gandalf not risk endangering the mission that way, but I don't believe he would ever put Pippin in such peril. That kind of manipulation would really cross the line.
I think Pippin is drawn to the stone, but only partly through the stone's own power. Yes, I guess you could say it works a bit like the Ring, tempting people according to their own personality traits. In Pippin's case, I think he is made vulnerable by his youth - by his foolhardiness and pride. And by his Tookish sense of adventure, perhaps.
I mentioned in an earlier discussion that Pippin's description of his meeting with Gandalf at Isengard might suggest his feeling a little neglected by the wizard. In The Voice of Saruman Tolkien continues to hint at this.
Merry and Pippin sat on the bottom step, feeling both unimportant and unsafe.
'Half a sticky mile from here to the gate!' muttered Pippin. 'I wish I could slip off back to the guardroom unnoticed! What did we come for? We are not wanted.'
And then in this chapter Pippin confesses his growing frustration to Merry.
'That - glass ball, now. He seemed mighty pleased with it. He knows or guesses something about it. But does he tell us what? No, not a word. Yet I picked it up, and I saved it from rolling into a pool.'
And then I love Pippin's response when Merry tells him not to meddle in the affairs of Wizards:
'But our whole life for months has been one long meddling in the affairs of Wizards,' said Pippin. 'I should like a bit of information as well as danger. I should like a look at that ball.'
All in all, I think Pippin has a point. I think the Wizard is disrespecting him a bit. Do you think Gandalf would have been as curt with Frodo had Frodo been the one to pick up the palantir? I don't think so. I think he would have trusted Frodo with a little more information.
Pippin has the classic teenage dilemma, caught between being a child and being an adult. And I think that his adventures are quickly pushing him towards full-fledged adulthood. And naturally, he wants the respect that goes with that. If not for the unwholesome power of the palantir (that is to say Sauron's power channeling through the palantir) I think he would have been able to restrain himself and not committed such a daring and dangerous theft. But I do think Tolkien has set the stage for Pippin's betrayal, and I think the seeds are in Pippin's character. In short, I really like the way that Tolkien works this incident into the story.
"Good Morning!"
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sevilodorf
Tol Eressea
Nov 24 2015, 3:40am
Post #28 of 38
(1008 views)
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Counting Nazgul and Pippin's insatiable curiosity...
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4. Why are we seeing all nine Nazgul? Is the one flying towards Pippin the one we're about to see "live"? If so, how long ago was this image generated?
Pippin says "I thought there were nine of them" ... could the count simply be a result of expectation?... he expects to see nine so "guesses" there are nine.
Gandalf tells us that the one that appears had to have left Mordor hours before for it is 200 leagues ... though one might speculate that Sauron had some way to communicate with the Nazgul over a distance -- but then that wouldn't be consistent with them having to report back to him by more conventional methods....
If NO one is looking into the Orthanc stone does Sauron see but not "hear" what is happening within range of the palantir -- and if it's covered then he sees nothing???
As for Pippin's curiosity.... Gandalf admits that he felt the pull of the stone himself.... Pippin's rather self centered POV which meant that he didn't pay a lot of attention to the politics of the quest meant that he didn't have the right info to pass on.... or at least thought he didn't and Sauron wanted to question Pippin more intensely himself (not wanting Saruman to get any info that would help him to pull a coup)
The question is while Tolkien no doubt worked out the "logistics" of the palantir .... does he keep their abilities consistent in the text of the story?
Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com
Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua
(Found in Mathoms, LOTR Tales Untold)
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sevilodorf
Tol Eressea
Nov 24 2015, 3:43am
Post #29 of 38
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The hobbit's being the POV of the reader and thus requesting the info we need but in such a way that makes it believable and humorous within the story...."I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you."... Such an irascible Gandalf response.
Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com
Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua
(Found in Mathoms, LOTR Tales Untold)
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Al Carondas
Lorien
Nov 24 2015, 4:10am
Post #30 of 38
(1004 views)
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Sauron had already become aware of Saruman's plan to betray him by taking the Ring for himself. But he didn't want Saruman to know that he knew. So Sauron pretended not to know, waiting until he was strong enough to deal with the traitor. But Saruman did know that Sauron knew (that Saruman wanted the Ring for himself). And Saruman's hope was simply to get the Ring anyway, while Sauron was still biding his time.
So both Sauron and Saruman are only pretending to be allies while each is frantically searching for the Ring. Sauron might not be sure that Pippin has the Ring (when he sees the Hobbit in the palantir), but he doesn't know where else it might be. It is his only lead at the moment, so naturally he is in great haste.
"Good Morning!"
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Al Carondas
Lorien
Nov 24 2015, 4:44am
Post #31 of 38
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I enjoy both rides, Merry's and Pippin's, and both are very informative. But I've always particularly liked the following response of Gandalf's to Merry:
'All Wizards should have a hobbit or two in their care - to teach them the meaning of the word, and to correct them. I beg your pardon.'
Saying 'touché', in effect to his young friend. This is a great line by itself, and I am often reminded of it when some hobbit I know teaches me a thing or two I hadn't expected. Or re-teaches me something that I had long ago forgotten. It also reminds me of the opening of The Hobbit, when Gandalf meets Bilbo. There it is Gandalf doing the teaching - about Bilbo's careless use of the phrase "Good Morning!", and also the phrase "I beg your pardon". Here, however, we catch Gandalf with his guard down, and it is Merry who parries with words, gently reprimanding Gandalf for having not answered the question that was put to him.
"Good Morning!"
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Al Carondas
Lorien
Nov 24 2015, 5:03am
Post #32 of 38
(1005 views)
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weak spot in its armor, I noticed. Just at the neck.
"Good Morning!"
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enanito
Rohan
Nov 24 2015, 2:46pm
Post #33 of 38
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It had a horrible look on its face when it realized -- "Wait, you're a hobbit, which means... you... are.. no... man..."
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squire
Half-elven
Nov 24 2015, 6:58pm
Post #35 of 38
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"they looked like bats wheeling round the tower"
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I agree that counting airplanes flying in steady formations of three by three is not so hard. My impression from the text is that the creatures Pippin saw in the glass were not in any formation, but swirling and "wheeling" in the kind of confused swarming one sees with a flock of birds or, in this case, bats.
That's why I guessed it would have been harder to estimate "nine" down to the number, the way Pippin says he did. It seems more likely that one would think, there were "maybe a dozen", or "7 to 10, I couldn't be sure", than a flat-out "I thought there were nine of them".
Of course, it is rather a nit-picky nit to pick!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
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squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Meneldor
Valinor
Nov 25 2015, 2:03am
Post #36 of 38
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How many Nazgulls does it take... ?
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Shortly after making that post, I went out for a jog. Coming around a corner, I startled a handful of seagulls standing on the ground. They immediately complained and leaped into the air, flying away in a confused, swirling mass. Thinking of this thread, I tried to count them. I'm sure there were at least seven, probably eight, maybe nine, but of course I couldn't tell for sure. 
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Nov 25 2015, 3:12am
Post #37 of 38
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Nothing like a good experiment!
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Thank you for the report!
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Darkstone
Immortal
Nov 25 2015, 9:19pm
Post #38 of 38
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1. When and by whom were these plans made?
As a cavalry commander Theoden is used to making plans on the fly and in the saddle.
What precipitated the change?
What they found out from Saruman. Not to mention what they didn’t find out from Saruman.
2. What's going on?
The palantir is a machine of power. Power attracts people. Machines beg to be utilized. Thus a machine of power is virtually irresistible.
For an example of applicability, some feel that in WWII the United States used the atomic bomb against a virtually defeated Japan just because we had it.
Is this just Pippin's insatiable curiosity at work, or is the stone exerting an attractive force?
Yes.
If the latter, how is that like/unlike the power exerted by The Ring? Compare and contrast!
Well, both have “owners”, Sauron owns The Ring and Aragorn the descendant of Elendil owns the palantiri. They can be used by non-owners, but their use seems to lead the presumptuous to folly and doom. One does wonder if Sauron’s palantir was treacherous in its own way, leading him to be blind to certain actions of the West.
As for differences, The One Ring seems pretty useless to anyone but Sauron, a million bucks of promise worth one cent on delivery. At least someone wise and powerful enough might get some use out of a palantir, but one might suspect the stones can be as treacherous as The One Ring if you’re not careful.
3. How does Pippin's vision compare with others we've seen, such as Frodo's visions in Galadriel's Mirror or the Seat of Seeing?
Much less ambiguous. More to the point. An interesting contrast with visions provided by the forces of Good. This means something.
4. Why are we seeing all nine Nazgul?
Sauron is very good at group shots. Probably moonlights as a photographer for weddings, family reunions, bar mitzvahs, and such.
Is the one flying towards Pippin the one we're about to see "live"?
Maybe, but Sauron probably featured him because he’s the most photogenic.
If so, how long ago was this image generated?
Hard to say. A good photographer takes multiple photos then selects the best one. I’m thinking this one was towards the middle of the session.
5. If Sauron and Saruman are in regular communication, which is what we are led to believe, why is Sauron showing him the Nazgul?
Reminding him who is the senior partner. And who has nine rings and knows how to use them.
Or is this a new element in their relationship?
That too. Sauron is probably saying “I know what you’ve been planning all along, but the ring is mine.”
6. Do you agree that the technique of having the narrator so horrified that he can't describe something is far more powerful than an actual description?
It would be trite and not wholly accurate to say that no human pen could describe it, but one may properly say that it could not be vividly visualized by anyone whose ideas of aspect and contour are too closely bound up with the common life-forms of this planet and of the three known dimensions.
-HP Lovecraft, The Dunwich Horror
Where else have you seen this used?
Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day.
-The White Rider
Tolkien is so brilliant at merging name and form that when he says something is “nameless” one might take it as “indescribable”.
"He" then appears. He apparently thinks he is talking to Saruman, but upon finding out that it's "a hobbit," he posts the message that Pippin delivered.
7. So, this implies that the video isn't bi-directional, right?
Kinda of reminded me of that old gag where someone really angry makes a telephone call, starts berating whoever answered, then suddenly realizes they’re not talking to the person they thought they were.
How is this working?
Apparently Saruman has the video default to “off” in case Sauron calls him while he’s, er, otherwise engaged.
8. Anyone wish that Gandalf had asked what "he" looked like?
Kinda wondering what “he” was doing. Lounging on a throne? Having a power lunch with the leaders of the Easterlings and Haradhrim? Playing a round of golf with a foursome made up of “him”, the Mouth, the Nose, and the Spleen of Sauron? Being fed peeled grapes by the ladies and/or gentlemen of “his” harem? Mentoring needy orc children? Feeding the homeless....to "his" fell beasts?
8. What do you think of this theory?
A quick ride to The Shire and he could have his pick of any number of curious and/or Tookish hobbits who don’t know about Frodo’s quest. Or just toss it to a random Rohirrim. Or lend it to the odd Dunlending.
Then again when one remembers how blithely Gandalf sent Bilbo into danger in The Hobbit one can’t discount the theory entirely.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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