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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Apr 15 2008, 9:58pm
Post #1 of 12
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Theoden's Funeral
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Something just occurred to me--just how long did Theoden lie around waiting to be buried, anyway. So I looked it up in the appendices, and it turns out that he died on March 15, but didn't make it to the tomb until August 10. And Merry, as his squire, had the "privilege" of riding in the cart with him, carrying his arms--in August. One might possibly get by with that here in the Sonoran desert, which would leave the good king too dessicated to cause much trouble, but in the moister climes of proto-Europe, wouldn't he be, well, rather fragrant?
Blame Darkstone for getting me to think of this, with his proposed song of the East Wind for Boromir.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Beren IV
Gondor
Apr 15 2008, 10:51pm
Post #3 of 12
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I don't think that the Silent Street is described as being high enough to freeze, and even so it wouldn't freeze by day...
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Beren IV
Gondor
Apr 15 2008, 10:55pm
Post #4 of 12
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I would guess that Théoden was buried in a sarcophagus before being taken to his tomb, and it may have been scented with something or something to keep him from smelling too bad. It's much the same way with perfumes to cover up offensive body odors, since Europeans didn't bathe!
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Kimi
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Apr 15 2008, 11:23pm
Post #5 of 12
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Denethor says, "No tomb for Denethor and Faramir. No tomb! No long slow sleep of death embalmed." So it seems a safe assumption that the Gondorians knew how to embalm bodies. This is strengthened by Tolkien's remark in Letter 211 that
The Númenóreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms. In many ways they resembled 'Egyptians' - the love of, and power to construct, the gigantic and massive. And in their great interest in ancestry and in tombs.
Good news for poor Merry :-)
My writing (including The Passing of Mistress Rose)
Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?
- A Room With a View
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Tolkien Forever
Gondor
Apr 16 2008, 5:18am
Post #6 of 12
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I think we can assume Theodan was enbalmed by the keepers of the dead on Silent Street.....
The Numenoreans & their descendants were great at the 'saving of flesh uncorrupt' Tolkien tells us in Alkallabeth & all the kings of Gondor were lying on slabs, not in tombs in Rath Dinen.
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 16 2008, 1:04pm
Post #7 of 12
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Maybe it was a miracle, or maybe corpses did not rot the same way in Middle-earth. Your question reminds me of Aragorn's fate:
'"Estel, Estel!" she cried, and with that even as he took her hand and kissed it, he fell into sleep. Then a great beauty was revealed in him, so that all who after came there looked on him in wonder; for they saw that the grace of his youth, and the valour of his manhood, and the wisdom and majesty of his age were blended together. And long there he lay, an image of the splendour of the Kings of Men in glory undimmed before the breaking of the world.'
There's no mention of embalmers coming along to disembowl the king and artificially recreate his beauty. We see a similar description when Eomer and Aragorn come upon Theoden's body:
... before the dais lay Théoden King of the Mark upon a bed of state; and twelve torches stood about it, and twelve guards, knights both of Rohan and Gondor. And the hangings of the bed were of green and white, but upon the king was laid the great cloth of gold up to his breast, and upon that his unsheathed sword, and at his feet his shield. The light of the torches shimmered in his white hair like sun in the spray of a fountain, but his face was fair and young, save that a peace lay on it beyond the reach of youth; and it seemed that he slept.
Was the narrator being discreet about the embalming of these bodies, or was some other Power at work? Remember the fate of Saruman's body, which dissolved into nothingness? Could the fate of Theoden and Aragorn's bodies be the reverse phenomenon, in which the bodies of heroes are supernaturally preserved?
There is also Faramir's sighting of Boromir's body, which was not embalmed by anyone, and survived Rauros falls:
"Then the boat turned towards me, and stayed its pace, and floated slowly by within my hand's reach, yet I durst not handle it. It waded deep, as if it were heavily burdened, and it seemed to me as it passed under my gaze that it was almost filled with clear water, from which came the light; and lapped in the water a warrior lay asleep."
Of course the greatest miracle of all is the fate of Gandalf's body, which died and then rose again. In a world where that is possible, the mere preservation of a body from rot seems like a rather routine miracle for deserving heroes. As usual, Tolkien leaves the answer ambiguous, but I wouldn't automatically assume that the embalmers are responsible.
I did a little search for "incorrupt" in the Catholic Encyclopedia and turned up a number of stories of just such miracles. It is part of the stories of St. Cuthbert, St. Edward the Confessor, St. Peter de Regalado, St. Fursey, St. Josaphat Kuncevyc, and many more saints.
(This post was edited by Curious on Apr 16 2008, 1:13pm)
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Canto
Bree
Apr 16 2008, 3:53pm
Post #8 of 12
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Clearly, I think the most obvious thing to say,
[In reply to]
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given Tolkien's apparent silence, is that there indeed was no ripeness about Theoden's body as he travelled from Gondor back to the Mark. Why, we can't precisely say, but some good suggestions have been made.
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Apr 16 2008, 4:11pm
Post #9 of 12
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Either that, or a respectable hobbit would rather die than mention a friend's odor.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 17 2008, 4:24pm
Post #10 of 12
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Practically speaking the removal of organs is the most vital step in trying to preserve a body. After that they could stuff him with salt, or dump him in a barrel full of brine water. Or they do have the nearby White Mountains, so presumably ice could be brought down and used to keep him fresh. Or alternately Theoden could be taken up on top of the mountains and, just like in the Sonoran Desert, be subjected to preserving desiccation courtesy of the high altitudes. (Like the well preserved leopard of Hemingway's "The Snows of Kilimanjaro", a story which, come to think of it, offers a nice parallel to Theoden.)
Alternatively, one might assume the Loremaster might know some old Numenorean embalming techniques (but would the Rohirrim let their king be subjected to the strange burial techniques of another culture, and mutilation by strangers?) And doubtless Strider would know a few ranger tricks in meat preservation. Or perhaps the combined Elven “magic” of Arwen, Galadriel, and Elrond could prevent corruption. Then there’s Gandalf’s mighty Istari powers.
But personally, I’m thinking they packed the coffin with simbelmyne, which, because it’s so acquainted with Rohirrim barrows, could well have a certain preservative quality.
Blame Darkstone for getting me to think of this...
Yeah, I've always had a tendency to make people stop and frown. I'm very popular with our Church Committee.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Beren IV
Gondor
Apr 17 2008, 7:52pm
Post #11 of 12
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One of the criteria for sainthood is that the bodies of dead saints don't decay. Are you suggesting this of Théoden?
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 17 2008, 8:06pm
Post #12 of 12
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Technically, no one in LotR is a saint because it all happens in pre-Christian times. But since Tolkien was a devout Catholic and acknowledged the influence of Catholicism on LotR, I would say his heroes certainly are saintly, with the exception of Gandalf, who is downright angelic.
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