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Darkstone
Immortal
Nov 3 2015, 3:11pm
Post #1 of 20
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The Road to Isengard II: "Friendship Is Magic!"
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Together the Elf and the Dwarf entered Minas Tirith, and folk that saw them pass marvelled to see such companions; for Legolas was fair of face beyond the measure of Men, and he sang an elven-song in a clear voice as he walked in the morning; but Gimli stalked beside him, stroking his beard and staring about him.
-The Last Debate
So it was that in the light of a fair morning King Théoden and Gandalf the White Rider met again upon the green grass beside the Deeping-stream. There was also Aragorn son of Arathorn, and Legolas the Elf, and Erkenbrand of Westfold, and the lords of the Golden House. About them were gathered the Rohirrim, the Riders of the Mark… Suddenly there was a great shout, and down from the Dike came those who had been driven back into the Deep. There came Gamling the Old, and Éomer son of Éomund, and beside them walked Gimli the dwarf. He had no helm, and about his head was a linen band stained with blood; but his voice was loud and strong.
"Forty-two, Master Legolas!" he cried. "Alas! My axe is notched: the forty-second had an iron collar on his neck. How is it with you?"
"You have passed my score by one," answered Legolas. "But I do not grudge you the game, so glad am I to see you on your legs!"
1. How has the relationship of the Rohirrim with Gandalf and the Three Hunters changed? Why? What do you think the Rohirrim make of The Dwarf and The Elf?
Legolas and Gimli were now riding together upon one horse; and they kept close beside Gandalf, for Gimli was afraid of the wood.
2. Note that Legolas is guiding the horse, so he is deliberately keeping close to Gandalf to ease Gimli’s fear. Comments?
Legolas wonders at the trees and reminiscences:
”…I have seen many an oak grow from acorn to ruinous age.”
3. Is this a indication that Legolas is already “wearying of the circle of the world”? Will the crying of the gulls merely be a trigger? If so, what else during the ring quest may have set up Legolas’ desire to sail West?
Gimli begins to wax eloquent about, as Gandalf calls them, “the Glittering Caves of Aglarond” (Sindarin translation: “The Glittering Caves of The Glittering Caves”).
“There would be an endless pilgrimage of Dwarves, merely to gaze at them, if such things were known to be. Aye indeed, they would pay pure gold for a brief glance!"
"And I would give gold to be excused," said Legolas;"and double to be let out, if I strayed in!"
"You have not seen, so I forgive your jest," said Gimli. "But you speak like a fool. Do you think those halls are fair, where your King dwells under the hill in Mirkwood, and Dwarves helped in their making long ago?
4. Is Legolas having fun with Gimli here or is he serious? Is this a setup to convince Gimli to visit Fangorn?
"And, Legolas, when the torches are kindled and men walk on the sandy floors under the echoing domes, ah! then, Legolas, gems and crystals and veins of precious ore glint in the polished walls; and the light glows through folded marbles, shell-like, translucent as the living hands of Queen Galadriel.”
Consider Plato’s “ladder of love”:
”And the true order of going, or being led by another, to the things of love, is to begin from the beauties of earth and mount upwards for the sake of that other beauty, using these as steps only, and from one going on to two, and from two to all fair forms, and from fair forms to fair practices, and from fair practices to fair notions, until from fair notions he arrives at the notion of absolute beauty, and at last knows what the essence of beauty is. This, my dear Socrates," said the stranger of Mantineia, "is that life above all others which man should live, in the contemplation of beauty absolute; a beauty which if you once beheld, you would see not to be after the measure of gold, and garments, and fair boys and youths, whose presence now entrances you; and you and many a one would be content to live seeing them only and conversing with them without meat or drink, if that were possible-you only want to look at them and to be with them.”
-The Symposium
5. Would Gimli have been able to fully appreciate the beauty of the caves before he experienced the beauty of Galadriel?
Gimli waxes even more eloquent. Then:
"No, you do not understand," said Gimli. "No dwarf could be unmoved by such loveliness. None of Durin's race would mine those caves for stones or ore, not if diamonds and gold could be got there.”
6a. Is this true of all Dwarves?
Consider: Men are fat and slim, weak and strong, brave and cowardly, noble and despicable, loving and hateful, loyal and treasonous, wise and foolish, kind and mean, and they live in a town by a lake, a town on a hill, a hut in pastureland, a fortress in the side of a mountain, a town by the sea, and a harbor on an estuary.
But all Elves are graceful, beautiful and ethereal. Isn’t there just one who scratches, burps, trips over his own feet, and can’t hold a tune in a bucket?
All Dwarves are tough fighters, live in exquisitely decorated caves, and love precious metals and gems. Isn’t there even one who is a pacifist, is claustrophobic, and spends his all time in a mountain cabin working on his stamp collection?
All hobbits love simple familiar food, are suspicious of foreign ways, and live in holes in the ground. Isn’t there even one who is svelte, a connoisseur of international cuisine, and lives in a houseboat on the Brandywine?
6b. Are The Elf and The Dwarf typical of the one-dimensional portrayal of non-human races in fairy tales, or are they Tolkien’s subtle subversions of the expected stereotypes? If the latter, why not introduce a friendly orc?
Gimli finishes waxing eloquent and buffs with a shammy cloth.
"You move me, Gimli," said Legolas. "I have never heard you speak like this before."
7. How has Gimli changed since Rivendell? How has Legolas?
"Almost you make me regret that I have not seen these caves. Come! Let us make this bargain-if we both return safe out of the perils that await us, we will journey for a while together. You shall visit Fangorn with me, and then I will come with you to see Helm's Deep."
"That would not be the way of return that I should choose," said Gimli. "But I will endure Fangorn, if I have your promise to come back to the caves and share their wonder with me."
"You have my promise," said Legolas.
Consider Aristotle:
Only the friendship of those who are good, and similar in their goodness, is perfect. For these people each alike wish good for the other qua good, and they are good in themselves. And it is those who desire the good of their friends for the friends’ sake that are most truly friends, because each loves the other for what he is, and not for any incidental quality. Accordingly the friendship of such men lasts so long as they remain good; and goodness is an enduring quality.
-The Nichomachean Ethics
8. Are The Dwarf and The Elf “good”? Is their friendship “perfect”? Any other such friendships in LOTR? How about in the rest of the Legendarium?
9. Any thoughts or comments?
(We’ll cover the Ents and the huorns tomorrow.)
Extra credit:
L. Frank Baum’s 1900 novel The Wonderful Wizard of Oz was a best seller throughout most of the early 20th century and remains one of the best-known stories in American popular culture. However, today most people are more familiar with the story from the 1939 MGM musical than from the novel itself. (A concern voiced by many Tolkien Scholars regarding Tolkien’s book vis-a-vis Jackson’s films.)
In the story each traveler seeks something that will make them complete: a heart, a brain, courage, home.
A. What, if anything, do each the members of the Fellowship find that makes them complete?
Note that, like Gandalf and the Eagles, Dorothy is able to command the King of the Flying Monkeys and his subjects to carry her and any companions a total of three times.
The Three Hunters, Dorothy’s three companions, three silmaril, three clicks of Dorothy’s heels, three peaks of Moria…
B. What the heck is up with the number three?
(I could mention the Cowardly Lion’s fight with a giant spider, as well as the Wicked Witch of the West’s black crows and other stuff eerily similar to Tolkien, but I won’t.)
The Wonderful Wizard of Oz is regarded as a “modernized fairy tale”.
C. Is The Lord of the Rings a modernized fairy tale?
Next: “The Creeping Chaos That Came to Calenardhon!”
******************************************
"Mister Frodo, hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good frying pan at your side. I’ve been from one side of this garden to the other, I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Providence controlling everything. There's no Music of the Ainur that controls my destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense."
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Nov 3 2015, 3:21pm)
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enanito
Rohan
Nov 3 2015, 8:18pm
Post #3 of 20
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5. Would Gimli have been able to fully appreciate the beauty of the caves before he experienced the beauty of Galadriel? Interesting question. If this were true, unless someone experiences something at least as wonderful or more wonderful, they cannot truly appreciate what they're experiencing. Can I fully appreciate Niagra Falls without having also seen Victoria Falls? In Gimli's case, I think he could appreciate the caves even not having visited Lothlorien, he just wouldn't have had that additional reference point to describe/compare the beauty. But I'm still thinking on this question!
6b. Are The Elf and The Dwarf typical of the one-dimensional portrayal of non-human races in fairy tales, or are they Tolkien’s subtle subversions of the expected stereotypes? If the latter, why not introduce a friendly orc? Inverting that question a bit, I think sometimes other races are more fully stamped by their 'creation template', whereas humans are given the blessing/curse of much looser design specs. So to me it's not as much that other races are one-dimensional, since within their template they do indeed vary in motives, desires, xenophobia, etc. Just that in comparison, a human's spectrum for possibilities is so much greater.
7. How has Gimli changed since Rivendell? How has Legolas? I think one way Gimli has changed is that he has learned not only that their is beauty outside of dwarvish caverns, but that he can trust an outsider with his deepest feelings. Obviously Calas Galadhon and Lady Galadriel have a lasting impact on him (death to any who defile her name!), but I think the greater change is that he opens his soul to Legolas in a completely unguarded way. Which is what bff's are for!
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Mikah
Lorien
Nov 3 2015, 11:28pm
Post #5 of 20
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I am only teasing.  I will tackle one of your extra credit questions here.
B. What the heck is up with the number three?
In the Bible the number three represents completeness. Think of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which make up the holy trinity. The story of Jonah in the belly of the fish for three days is a foreshadowing of Jesus, his time in the grave was three days. Theologians believe this to be of extreme importance. Three days would be enough to prove to those who may later say that Jesus was "not quite dead." Jesus' ministry was also believed to have lasted for three years. Peter denied Jesus three times as foretold. Peter later told Jesus he loved him three times, when each time Jesus answered then feed my sheep. If this was intentional on Tolkiens part I do not doubt that he would know what the number three means to Christians. There are many examples of the number three throughout The Bible.
It is also noted by theologians "the rule of three." Three being the minimum number to establish a pattern. Three is typically considered a very intentional number. You remember the saying "once is an accident, twice is a coincidence, and three times is a pattern?" Once again, I could be reading waaaay too much into this! In each case the author could have just had three characters they liked and threw them together!
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Mikah
Lorien
Nov 3 2015, 11:44pm
Post #6 of 20
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I agree with you on this. I believe that Gimli would have been able to appreciate the beauty of the case, with or without visiting Lothlorien. He does mention that he believes other dwarves would appreciate their beauty and other dwarves most certainly had not visited Galadriel.
I remember the first time I visited the ocean as a child. It was the rocky cliffs of Oregon, complete with lighthouses and everything. I remember thinking that there could not be anything on this earth more beautiful than that. I appreciated their beauty and really had no point of reference, as the internet did not exist then. Perhaps I had seen a postcard or two, I do not remember. All these years later, I have seen many wondrous views, beaches, forests, cities, and waterfalls, but still have never seen anything that compares to the Pacific Northwest Coastline. Without reference, I believe that I am able to appreciate beauty. I think that of Gimli too. As you say, it just gives him a standard or point of reference.
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Mikah
Lorien
Nov 4 2015, 12:04am
Post #7 of 20
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Ah geez, what I would give for a friendly Orc!
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I am more sympathetic to Orcs than most, for certain. But you know you do make some valid points regarding stereotypes here. Thinking back to when I first read Tolkien; the books were given to me by my husband as a gift. I honestly was not certain if I would be interested for just the reasons you mention. I thought of them as being very clichéd. You know, good versus evil, perfect elves, blah, blah, blah. I do not believe anything is that simple. When I picked up The Silmarillion, I thought oh geez, a whole book about elves...good grief! Much to my delight, I realized these were not your typical Tolkien elves. These were fussy and rebellious elves! That was something I was completely on board with!
I guess I tell you that, to tell you this. Yes, I completely believed that the characters were too stereotypical. That is why the men in Middle Earth always interested me the most. They were fallible, yet had courage. Whether it be Turin, Beren, Théoden, or Aragorn. The courage of men always meant more to me than the courage of elves. I like deficiencies and I like the strength of character, fortitude, and valor it takes to overcome those defects. . Here comes the paradox. Now my favorite characters in Tolkien literature are the heroes!
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hanne
Lorien
Nov 4 2015, 1:26am
Post #8 of 20
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You have passed my score by one
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I have to wonder if Legolas was telling the truth there, or if he was letting Gimli win because he was so happy to see him again :)
Posting that mainly to say Thank you for the thoughtful questions you have posed here, that have made me appreciate this friendship much more.
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Al Carondas
Lorien
Nov 4 2015, 3:02am
Post #9 of 20
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I don't get the impression that Legolas is tiring of Middle-earth. At several points, I sense that Legolas is still quite wide-eyed about the world around him. For example: his great fascination with Fangorn, and his sudden desire to run back into the forest of Huorns (when he sees the eyes of the Ents). But perhaps Legolas is tired of Mirkwood. And maybe what he is seeking on this quest is adventure - new experiences beyond what he has found in his own little corner of the world. And that might make him just as susceptible to the mewing of the gulls as if he were tired of all of Middle-earth.
"Good Morning!"
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Nov 4 2015, 2:03pm
Post #10 of 20
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B. What the heck is up with the number three?
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CuriousG and I had a go at this a while back:
3 branches of Elves (Noldor, Teleri, Vanyar)
3 houses of the Noldor from Finwe's sons (Fingolfin, Finarfin, and Feanor)
3 Rings for the Elves
3 Houses of the Edain
When Gandalf was stumped on which way to go in Moria, how many doors did he face? 3
How many times did the Witch-King utter his spell before the Gate of Minas Tirith was beaten in by Grond? 3
How many times did the thrush need to knock at Erebor according to prophecy? 3
How many attacks were there on Lorien during the War of the Ring? 3
The Three Hunters (Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas
Three Keepers (Well, same as Three Rings I guess)
Three Farthing Stone
The Gamgees live at #3 Bagshot Row
The LOTR trilogy – 3 books
Sam says something to the affect of 3rd time pays for all.
Three Trolls (Tom, Bert, William).
It took 3 to destroy the Ring – Frodo, Sam, Gollum
What age does LOTR take place in? The Third one
How many times had Frodo worn the Ring before meeting Galadriel? 3
How many heads & bodies did the Watchers at Cirith Ungol's gate have? 3
Frodo was 33 at the Long-expected Party
There were 3 Hobbit families on Bagshot Row at the time
There were 3 "official" meals served
How many lines of royalty in Rohan? 3
How many boats did the Fellowship use to travel down the Anduin? 3
How many Wizards are named and known about in LOTR? 3
How many principal centers of Elven power are cited in the Council of Elrond? 3 (Sorry, Thranduil fans, but he's not mentioned. Only Rivendell, Lorien, and the Havens.)
How many Elven guards did the Fellowship encounter at Lorien's border? 3
How many constituted the travelers in the “Three is Company” chapter? (ha)
Bilbo said “Good morning!” 3 times to Gandalf before the Unexpected Party
The day after the U.P. and after Bilbo’s gifts were given and the S.B.s were gotten rid of Frodo “evicted 3 young hobbits (two Boffins and a Bolger)…”
"To think that I should have lived to be good-morninged by Belladonna Took’s son, as if I was selling buttons at the door!”
-Gandalf the Grey
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Nov 4 2015, 5:38pm
Post #11 of 20
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The Glittering Caves of Glittering Caves - perfectly reasonable place name!
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Gimli begins to wax eloquent about, as Gandalf calls them, “the Glittering Caves of Aglarond” (Sindarin translation: “The Glittering Caves of The Glittering Caves”).
I'm don't know the story of how & why the caves got a Sinadrin name, but I suspect that doubling the description ("The Glittering Caves of Aglarond") is an entirely deliberate authorial act rather than an authorial oversight. In a real-life place name, it would suggest that an immigrating people had adopted the existing name of a place or thing, but without understanding the linguistic roots of that name. It's something that applies to several English rivers, for example:
The River Avon (there are 15 of them in England, including a major one) is from 'afon', welsh for river - so it's the River River
The Rivers Usk, Esk, Ex (from variations on the Irish for water, 'uisge') So these are also the River River.
The River Thames is the River Broad River (tem-ese, from broad +'uisge' again).
This learnedness, by the way, is brought to you via "A Tolkiienian Mathomium", by Mark T Hooker, who also notes that, in calling the big River in The Shire "The Water":
Tolkien is recreating a sense of the primordial time when the names of many rivers across England still meant what they said, and had not yet been stripped of their meaning by the arrival of a new wave of settlers, to whom the names were just so much alphabet soup.
So in Aglarond, new non-Sindarin-speaking settlers (the Rohirrim) have taken Aglarond as an arbitrary handle & added a description that they don't realise is unnecessary. The result sounds good though!
I guess that kind of thing happens a lot. Someone once told me the following story about Semliki Forest (which is on the border of Uganda and DRC in Africa). He said that 'Semliki' means "I don't know" in a local language, and was presumably how somebody answered some early European explorer or cartographer who asked what the river was called. It would be nice if this were true, but I've never been able to verify it.
The same phenomenon is, however a problem in other fantasy worlds:
“The forest of Skund was indeed enchanted, which was nothing unusual on the Disc, and was also the only forest in the whole universe to be called -- in the local language -- Your Finger You Fool, which was the literal meaning of the word Skund.
The reason for this is regrettably all too common. When the first explorers from the warm lands around the Circle Sea travelled into the chilly hinterland they filled in the blank spaces on their maps by grabbing the nearest native, pointing at some distant landmark, speaking very clearly in a loud voice, and writing down whatever the bemused man told them. Thus were immortalised in generations of atlases such geographical oddities as Just A Mountain, I Don't Know, What? and, of course, Your Finger You Fool.
Rainclouds clustered around the bald heights of Mt. Oolskunrahod ('Who is this Fool who does Not Know what a Mountain is') and the Luggage settled itself more comfortably under a dripping tree, which tried unsuccessfully to strike up a conversation.”
Terry Pratchett, The Light Fantastic
~~~~~~
Two Towers Read-through: Now looking for volunteers to lead chapters in Book IV: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=878725#878725
The Book III schedule and links:
week starts # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
13-Sep-15 # I # The Departure of Boromir # MirielCelebel http://goo.gl/zpn7Rg
20-Sep-15 # II # The Riders of Rohan # Brethil (Part 1) http://goo.gl/yKNv7E (2) http://goo.gl/mxesBG
27-Sep-15 # III # The Uruk-hai # cats16 http://goo.gl/LUWJi1
04-Oct-15 # IV # Treebeard # Mikah http://goo.gl/2CqCXS
11-Oct-15 # V # The White Rider # Entwife Wandlimb http://goo.gl/VXb2Ni
18-Oct-15 # VI # The King of the Golden Hall # squire (Part 1) http://goo.gl/cpEvnI, (2) http://goo.gl/BBTzvR, (3) http://goo.gl/yN7QLq, (4) http://goo.gl/7726S3 (5) http://goo.gl/VC7Abc
25-Oct-15 # VII # Helm's Deep # arithmancer (Part 1) http://goo.gl/E6gVUC, (2) http://goo.gl/5aRuq0
01-Nov-15 # VIII # The Road to Isengard # Darkstone (Part 1)http://goo.gl/rdE1xG (2) http://goo.gl/54rxDw
08-Nov-15 # IX # Flotsam and Jetsam # Enanito
15-Nov-15 # X # The Voice of Saruman # jochenkeen
22-Nov-15 # XI # The Palantir # Elizabeth
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Darkstone
Immortal
Nov 4 2015, 7:21pm
Post #14 of 20
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******************************************
"Mister Frodo, hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good frying pan at your side. I’ve been from one side of this garden to the other, I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Providence controlling everything. There's no Music of the Ainur that controls my destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense."
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enanito
Rohan
Nov 4 2015, 10:49pm
Post #15 of 20
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Elves both terribly splendid and merrily childlike
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While in Rivendell, Sam describes the wonderful differences in the elves he's met so far, ranging from "some like kings, terrible and splendid" to "some as merry as children".
Later on in Calas Galadhon, Sam tells Frodo "I reckon there's Elves and Elves. They're all elvish enough, but they're not all the same."
I think that's what made me think of the Elves being more closely typed to their "elvish nature", yet within those confines still having a wide variety of attributes (and the same for other non-human races). So one-dimensional if compared to humans, but a closer inspection shows otherwise.
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hanne
Lorien
Nov 5 2015, 12:27am
Post #16 of 20
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That's some threes! Great job!
I think most of the numbers up to 12 can be linked to multiple mythic meanings in the real world (though maybe 11 is unique to Hinduism, where the eleventh day in the lunar cycle is beneficial). But Tolkien did seem very fond of three.
Did you make lists for the other numbers in Middle-Earth?
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hanne
Lorien
Nov 5 2015, 12:36pm
Post #18 of 20
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Nov 5 2015, 11:57pm
Post #19 of 20
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Well, maybe Sador from the Silmarillion was not your typical Elf? Sarcastic, not friendly and actually beaten by a mere mortal, even a mortal like Turin. And I suppose we never know how actually nimble someone like Galadriel was. She might well have been wise and possibly out-think Sauron, but it was never said how great a fighter or skilled persona she had!
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Nov 6 2015, 12:08am
Post #20 of 20
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It's interesting that in this case, two of our main heroes have killed forty of their enemies. That is eighty between them. And in return only Gimli had a bit of a scratch on his head. Unfortunately as Legolas did say in the battle they were only leaves in the forest. Now, I'm not sure precisely how bigger Saruman's army was than that of Rohan, but I doubt if it was eighty times bigger. It might have been better generally if rather than just two guys managing to wipe out loads if your average Rohan rider had just got say 5 Orcs each. Even with a horse. Then there would not have been a problem!
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Try "The Orcs of New York"
[