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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 24 2015, 9:35pm
Post #1 of 17
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The palantir of Dol Guldur was:
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What was the origin of the seeing-stone of Dol Guldur as seen in Peter Jackson's Hobbit trilogy?
(This post was edited by Earl on Oct 25 2015, 9:34am)
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Withywindle
Bree
Oct 25 2015, 4:40am
Post #2 of 17
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I thought that PJ or someone else involved in production said that Dol Guldur was built by Numenoreans. If so, it may have been there from the time of it being built.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 25 2015, 5:33am
Post #3 of 17
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I thought that PJ or someone else involved in production said that Dol Guldur was built by Numenoreans. If so, it may have been there from the time of it being built.
Well, according to Tolkien only seven palantíri were brought to Middle-earth from Númenor. So unless Jackson invented an eighth palantír, it still has to be one of the Seven Stones. After the Nazgul captured Minas Ithil, the Ithil-stone was kept by Sauron at Barad-dur. The Seeing-stone of Osgiliath was lost, but might have been recovered by servants of the Enemy. The palantír of Amon Sûl was taken to Fornost when the forces of Angmar destroyed the Tower of Amon Sûl, but the Witch-king could have seized it in the film-canon. Alternately, agents of Sauron could have recovered the Sûl-stone and/or the palantír of Annúminas after they were lost in the shipwreck that killed King Avendui of Arthedain and his followers at Forochel. The other Seeing-stones should all be accounted for at the Tower Hills, Orthanc and Minas Tirith.
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 25 2015, 5:36am)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Oct 25 2015, 1:54pm
Post #4 of 17
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Movie or book? Jump/jump
Minas Ithil was captured by Nazgul Third Age 2002 (renamed Minas Morgul).
It can be assumed that Sauron had this stone from about this time forward.
Dol Guldur was built around T.A. 1050-1100.
The Hobbit took place in 2941 (some 900 years after the capture of Minas Ithil). So I assume if Sauron had a palantir at Dol Guldur it WAS the Ithil-stone.
Would Sauron not keep it with him? (I would!)
So . . . still only seven stones in Middle-earth.
But then I’m not a big movie buff, and if Jackson didn’t portray Sauron as being at Dol Guldur at this time . . . . . . . . “Nevermind!” 
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 25 2015, 2:25pm
Post #5 of 17
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Naturally the poll is asking about the Dol Guldur of the films. The fortress did not hold a Seeing-stone in Tolkien's legendarium. That said, we don't know when Minas Ithil was taken by Mordor in the film-continuity, but it might have been before the fall of Angmar and held by other servants of Sauron after the Ringwraiths were entombed at the High Fells. The palantír at Dol Guldur could not be the Ithil-stone if it was left behind when Sauron was driven into the East.
The years you cite don't transfer to the film continuity. The Dol Guldur of the films was allegedly constructed by Men of Númenor. Even the year of the Quest of Erebor has to be altered to TA 2940 (sixty years before Bilbo's birthday party of September 22, 3000, as per LotR:FotR-EE).
Thank you for responding!
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 25 2015, 2:28pm)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Oct 25 2015, 6:35pm
Post #6 of 17
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Yes, I understood this was a movie poll
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But when you mentioned - Well, according to Tolkien only seven palantíri were brought to Middle-earth from Númenor - I saw sneak-nitche for some textual facts and thought I’d butt in.
Sorry for intruding O-S. 
As I said I’m not a big movie buff (I haven’t even seen the last two parts of The Hobbit . . . yet) -- so many of the comments about the films just don’t register, and I tend to attempt to throw in a little ‘factual’ tidbit when I get a chance.
Thanks anyhoo for the poll . . .
Maybe I should start my own poll – Did Sauron take the Ithil-stone to Dol Guldur? (Book, book, book, please.)
But that’s just a “yes” or “no” – so Naw!
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 25 2015, 9:04pm
Post #7 of 17
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I did include the 'Other' box, so I am prepared for off-beat, out-of-the-box responses and also for ones that I might have simply overlooked (note that the Annúminas-stone was not originally listed among my standard choices). In my head-canon I ruled out the palantír of Minas Ithil for the one in the Hobbit films, but you've shown that there is support for the idea.
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 25 2015, 9:10pm)
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Na Vedui
Rohan
Oct 26 2015, 1:17am
Post #8 of 17
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If we can use the version in Unfinished Tales
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it wouldn't be either Osgiliath or Amon Sul if it was an ordinary-looking one, as those two were outsize palantiri and"could not be lifted by one man". Unless PJ & co were envisaging a purely movieverse explanation of "How Saruman got hold of a palantir" (to avoid having to delve into the Numenorean and Gondorian history of Orthanc), my money's on the Ithil stone and someone from Sauron's lot sneaking it back to him at Barad-dur.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 26 2015, 1:36am
Post #9 of 17
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We can probably ignore the larger size of the palantíri of Osgiliath and Amon Sûl (and probably also the Stone in Elostirion in the Tower Hills). We know that Peter Jackson would! You guys are making me regret leaving the Ithil-stone off of the poll, though.
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 26 2015, 1:38am)
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joec_34
Rivendell
Oct 26 2015, 3:59pm
Post #11 of 17
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Orthanc would be my preference, but I don't see how that would work out.
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I like the idea of the palantir being from Orthanc. Perhaps then Saruman takes it back to Orthanc after the events of The Hobbit, and his use of it accelerates his decline. I don't know much about palantir or Orthanc history, but what Wikipedia tells me just doesn't seem to leave any room for Sauron to have taken it from Orthanc. Since the High Fells plot in the movies indicates that the Nazgul were perhaps not inhabiting Minas Morgul as consistently as they had been in the books; the Ithil stone makes a lot of sense. However, why would the white council leave the stone behind? I suppose one of the Nazgul must've grabbed it on their way out? That seems a sloppy solution, but I guess it is the best we have.
(This post was edited by joec_34 on Oct 26 2015, 4:01pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 26 2015, 4:28pm
Post #12 of 17
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I like the idea of the palantir being from Orthanc. Perhaps then Saruman takes it back to Orthanc after the events of The Hobbit, and his use of it accelerates his decline.
Well, can't we assume that the Nazgul are not the only servants of Sauron? Some time after Calenardhon (renamed Rohan) was given to the Rohirrim in TA 2510, Gondor deserted Orthanc. Saruman began to occupy Isengard in 2759. The Seeing-stone could have been stolen during this period.
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joec_34
Rivendell
Oct 26 2015, 4:44pm
Post #13 of 17
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Perhaps, but I think it unlikely.
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What I read, (again, it was Wikipedia so the accuracy is up for critique,) said that while Gondor deserted Orthanc, they always had at least a small party guarding Isengard. Wiki suggested that the guard intermarried with Dunlendings to the point that it was no longer really Gondor who controlled Isengard. Then Rohan took it over. However, the keys to Orthanc remained with the Steward of Gondor until they were given to Saruman. Surely Sauron's window of opportunity is when the small guard loses loyalty to Gondor. My question is: if the keys to Orthanc remained with the Steward of Gondor, could Sauron have stolen the palantir that was locked inside? It seems unlikely to me.
(This post was edited by joec_34 on Oct 26 2015, 4:45pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 26 2015, 5:02pm
Post #14 of 17
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The Orthanc-stone being taken to Dol Guldur is not my personal favorite theory. I include it more for completeness than anything else (and because there are others who do support the idea). However, remember that we cannot count on individual parts of Tolkien's legendarium also applying to the films.
I do note, though that Sauron had, at least at one time, Vampire-servants such as Thuringwethil who might have been able to access Orthanc by other means.
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Nov 20 2015, 1:14pm
Post #15 of 17
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That either PJ thought out an eight palantir, or he chose the Orthanc-stone being located in Dol Guldur at first.
1. Minas Ithil in the movies, at least in my opinion, was captured after Sauron's return to Mordor, so this is not a plausible option in my opinion. As far as I know PJ only stated that there was a palantir in Dol Guldur, he didn't say which (that's what I heard, I haven't watched the Appendices yet), so maybe in film canon there was an eight palantir that was at Dol Guldur, but was forgotten in time?
2. If an eight palantir is not enough plausible, maybe in movie lore the Orthanc-stone was originally the 'Guldur-stone' of sorts? And Saruman took it to Orthanc off screen?
In any case, it's clear from close up pictures that the statue was made to hold the palantir, at least I think it was made for that. What do you think?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Nov 20 2015, 4:13pm
Post #16 of 17
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Either way, though, it is poorly thought-out and executed. There is no need to create an eighth palantír when the one at Dol Guldur could simply be one of the missing ones recovered. And Dol Guldur is a poor location for a watchtower (as opposed to a secret stronghold) both because it is too far from any travel routes to be effective and it is surrounded be dense forest (twenty miles or more from the western eaves) that would screen any activity that it might be guarding against.
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Nov 20 2015, 9:20pm
Post #17 of 17
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It is possible that the Dol Guldur palantir
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Was another one recovered, yes. But still the statue's outstretched hand looks a lot like it was meant to hold a palantir, so I still don't think it could have been a stolen palantir.
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