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ProudFeet
Bree
Oct 8 2015, 11:59am
Post #1 of 46
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The Hobbit as 2 films - which scenes wouldn't have been in the original vision
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This is my first post on the site so please be gentle 
We all know that The Hobbit was initially filmed as a 2 part series and was later stretched to a trilogy (whether that be from Jackson's 'own decision' or most likely studio involvement). There are a number of rumoured scenes that never made it in to the final vision and it's a shame we'll never get to see those films and how they would have turned out or have been received. Peter Jackson said in an interview that the first film in the 2 part series was going to end with Bard as a silhouetted figure on the riverbank which, to me, is a much stronger ending point and clear and logical break in the narrative from The Hobbit book.
I'm an editor and I decided to undertake a fan edit of the films, trying to as best as I can, construct what the original vision from Peter Jackson and crew may have been. I'm anxiously awaiting the extended edition of The Battle of the Five Armies as I feel that that was an incomplete movie and the scenes being added should have been in the theatrical version to begin with.
But in order to enhance my project, I wanted to seek the help from people on here. So my question to everyone is, which scenes in the 3 movies would NOT have been in the original version. For me, the scenes I think were added afterwards to boost the series to a trilogy were:
PART 1 - AUJ/DoS:
Radagast intro with the hedgehog
Constant cutting back to Azog which spoils his return at the end
The whole Orc/Warg chase before Rivendell
Goblin chase
Showdown between Thorin and Azog, Thorin being injured, emotional acceptance of Bilbo (this is never continued into Desolation).
Bree prologue/Azog opener
The infamous Kili/Tauriel romance subplot
PART 2: Dos/BotFA
Alfrid being as prominent as he is
I don't think Legolas was originally intended to be in the final film at all
Bolg in Laketown subplot
Bard being imprisoned by the master
The entire elaborate battle in the forges with Smaug
These are just my impressions after editing the film for close to a year and reading up on the production a bit. If anyone can suggest any other scenes that could/should have been cut please let me know.
P.S. As a side question, I was curious as to which movie the High Fells sequence was originally intended to be in. For me, it serves as a good introduction to the second movie.
(This post was edited by ProudFeet on Oct 8 2015, 12:04pm)
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Oct 8 2015, 12:21pm
Post #2 of 46
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PART 1 - AUJ/DoS:
Radagast intro with the hedgehog, two films
Constant cutting back to Azog which spoils his return at the end, three films
The whole Orc/Warg chase before Rivendell, two films
Goblin chase, two films
Showdown between Thorin and Azog, Thorin being injured, emotional acceptance of Bilbo (this is never continued into Desolation). Thorin vs Azog two films, bilbo three films
Bree prologue/Azog opener, three films
The infamous Kili/Tauriel romance subplot, two films
PART 2: Dos/BotFA
Alfrid being as prominent as he is, two films but less
I don't think Legolas was originally intended to be in the final film at all, two films but less
Bolg in Laketown subplot, three films
Bard being imprisoned by the master, two films
The entire elaborate battle in the forges with Smaug, three films
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Arannir
Valinor
Oct 8 2015, 12:23pm
Post #3 of 46
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I think there is at least one bigger plotline that changed too much when they decided to go with three movies to be "restored" in any kind of fan-edit:
To me it looks like Bolg would have been closely linked to the DG subplot in the two movies version, being the main antagonist there until Sauron and the Nazgul reveal themselves (probably being connected both with Thrain as well as Beorn who seems to have originally been imprisoned there).
What is hard to tell though is whether this would have changed in both versions at some point or not.
What we also do not know (and what even the filmmakers probably do not know 100% as they didn't have to edit a 2 movies version) is what might have ended up on the cutting room floor. PJ and PB indicated that even huge story aspects such as the Eagles in AUJ might not have been feasible to include in that shorter version, at least not in its current form.
Regarding the High Fells, I think that the High Fells sequence would have taken place while the Company crosses the Misty Mountains, after they leave Rivendell with Gandalf potentially being sent out by or in agreement with Galadriel. Gandalf's storyline in the first movie would probably have ended with a cliffhanger - maybe with him entering Dol Guldur.
I would have loved to have a featurette on the BotFA EE with them speaking about the script-writing process and a closer look at their original ideas, especially regarding Dol Guldur/Beorn/Bolg.
PS: Welcome to the forums.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Oct 8 2015, 12:27pm)
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TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense
Rohan
Oct 8 2015, 1:02pm
Post #4 of 46
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Want to chime in on just one point
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Thorin's early acceptance of Bilbo is absolutely carried into the other films. This exchange:
Bilbo: Please, please! You must trust me.
*The dwarves all look on the empty barrels unsure of what to do; Bilbo gives Thorin a desparate 'help me out here' look*
Thorin: Do as he says.
And in the final film, Thorin - suspecting someone close to him is hiding the Arkenstone - confides in him even more so his own kin! Their arc in the first film and over the three overall was well done, though the prominence shifts to other plot strands over their course (as it must).
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ProudFeet
Bree
Oct 8 2015, 1:11pm
Post #5 of 46
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Don't get me wrong, I loved that exchange in the first movie, but I think he accepts Bilbo much too early. Bilbo saving Thorin's life was added when the decision was made to go to 3 movies. As in the book, the moment Bilbo proves himself to the company and Thorin is during/after the barrels, which is illustrated in the quote you just made. The ending of AUJ promised that Bilbo and Thorin would be really close, but we see no signs of this during Beorn's, or Mirkwood as Thorin is his usual moody and grim self and only shows signs of humanity again until the barrels. That's my opinion anyway.
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Arannir
Valinor
Oct 8 2015, 1:13pm
Post #6 of 46
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The development of the relationship of Thorin/Bilbo is probably one of the biggest drawbacks we got from the trilogy decision, IMHO.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Oct 8 2015, 1:20pm
Post #7 of 46
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Hello Proudfeet, and welcome to TORn....
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The simple answer, I think, is that no one can possibly tell you what the two-film adaptation would have been like. I doubt if even Peter Jackson knows that.
Watching the EE documentaries and reading the Chronicles books it's obvious that the adaptation was a constant process of evolution. That's how Peter Jackson seems to work anyway but with this film, which he took on at such a late date, the process was even more pronounced. They had no leisure beforehand to think deeply about how they wanted to approach it; when PJ took over the adaptation had gone a long way down Guillermo del Toro's path.
As Peter Jackson and his people took over and worked out their ideas for the story I don't think they were thinking realistically about what could fit into each of the two films. They were adapting and filming scenes for the whole story, changing their minds about how to do individual scenes, what they might add, how they might approach things. It seems to me to have been only when PJ set about editing the first film that he found he had far too much material to go in. So he suggested a three film split to the studio - I'm not sure how anyone could take that to have been studio's idea. If they'd wanted three films why wouldn't they have said so back when Peter Jackson took over?
Now, imagine if they'd said no. It's only at that point that PJ would actually have had to make final decisions about what scenes would be in and what wouldn't. We know from the previous trilogy that he films scenes fully intending to include them and then they don't make the final cut. The duration of a film is finite; his imagination isn't. It would have been just the same with the Hobbit. That's why I don't think anyone can answer your question. There never was a two-film adaptation. Peter Jackson never had to make those decisions. All he had at that stage was a collection of scenes far too long for two films and ideas he still hadn't had time to develop.
I'm afraid you're trying to achieve the impossible....
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Goldeneye
Lorien
Oct 8 2015, 1:33pm
Post #8 of 46
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Ahh! Welcome to TORN, fellow fan editor!
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It is my duty to warn you just as I was warned when I first joined TORN...fan edits are not viewed with much regard in these lands! But there are still a few supporters lurking about.
I've been working on my own Hobbit fan edit for over two years now (J.R.R. Tolkien's The Hobbit), and like you I'm just waiting for the BOFA EE to come out. I released my first version back in April, and can share that with you privately if you wish. It's definitely possible to cut the trilogy down to two films, and if you know the book well enough, it's not hard to pick out the scenes & characters that were unnecessarily expanded on by Peter Jackson. My fan edit is a single 4-hour film, but I split it with an intermission right at the scene with Bard at the river...exactly where PJ intended to split the films originally.
Your preliminary list is pretty good, you've hit most of the unnecessary subplots and characters. Seeing Legolas in Mirkwood makes sense because he lives there, but he has no business going to Laketown or stealing the spotlight in BOFA. Most other fan editors I've talked with are split on what to do about the Dol Guldur/White Council storyline...some people like seeing what Gandalf is up to while the company continues to Erebor, others think it's a waste of time. Personally I didn't like how it distracted from the main quest, so I made a separate one-hour short film that focuses just on that subplot. If you are editing two distinct Hobbit films, you may find it easier just to leave the Dol Guldur stuff in.
Have you any clips you're willing to share? I can send you a few clips from mine if you like. It would have to be through PM though...TORN is incredibly strict about what can be shared on the boards 
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LSF
Gondor
Oct 8 2015, 2:34pm
Post #9 of 46
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I'm gonna disagree with you on the original split point. Bard standing there is not emotionally satisfying as an "ending." I mean, the dwarves just got done escaping from Elves and Orcs in an exciting river chase. Some guy with a bow showing up doesn't seem that big a threat at all. Not an effective cliffhanger if the intent was "Oh, this mysterious guy sees them, what'll happen next time?" The way it is now in the AUJ/DOS split is much more satisfying- they see their goal, and we the audience are reminded of what's waiting for them there.
Well, going off of what was filmed before the 3-movie decision, since that was made at the very end of or right after principle photography. So anything filmed during principle photography are things that were in the original 2-movie plan. Anything that was added in was filmed during the pick-up shoots for all three movies.
Let me start off with what from your list I am certain you got wrong, based on what was shown in the Appendices:
Radagast's intro where he saves the hedgehog was always there- looks like that scene was one of the first Sylvester McCoy filmed.
Azog stuff before the ending forest fire fight was always there- They originally filmed all his stuff with a physical make-up actor.
The chase before Rivendell was always there- they spent a lot of time filming it, and the script had it in for a very long time before filming. They knew the "book way" of them finding the little stones was too boring and uncinematic from the first draft.
Goblin chase was always there- spent a long time filming it.
The Kili/Tauriel romance was always in- Evie Lily and Aiden Turner signed on knowing it was there. Her first scene to film was the healing Kili one.
Legolas was always in- in early drafts he was the Captain of the Guard instead of Tauriel. What was NOT in with him was the love triangle stuff. That was forced on them by WB.
Bard being imprisoned was always in- the first things Luke Evans filmed was Laketown while it was being attacked/on fire, which would include his escape from the cell.
A lot of the Bilbo character moments were not in the original shoot- nearly falling off the cliff in Misty Mountains, his conversation with Bofur in the cave, being the one caught by the trolls (they originally filmed it with Bofur), Bilbo saving Thorin from Azog. I don't think those scenes came just from the 3-movie decision, but also because PJ realized that nothing happens to Bilbo and he does nothing to "earn" his way into the Company until the spiders. There is no character journey for him until the spiders. (I'll disagree that this never continues into DOS, but that's not your question here )
I can't say exactly what was or was not in Dul Guldor and BOFA yet, because those Appendices haven't come out yet.
The other things on your list are correct, as far as I know.
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LSF
Gondor
Oct 8 2015, 2:55pm
Post #10 of 46
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So the 1st film would've ended with Bard standing there. The 2nd would've started with them on Bard's boat. So the whole scene where they are convincing him to take them wasn't originally there.
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Oct 8 2015, 3:02pm
Post #11 of 46
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Azog stuff before the ending forest fire fight was always there- They originally filmed all his stuff with a physical make-up actor. Azog in Moria yes, but was suppose to be talked about wean the company was at Beorn, but Azog on weathertop was pickups for three films.
being the one caught by the trolls (they originally filmed it with Bofur), It was Bombur from the beginning.
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LSF
Gondor
Oct 8 2015, 3:05pm
Post #12 of 46
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Ah, okay with Azog.
They said it was Bofur in the commentary, so I'll believe that. And there was a bit of behind the scenes footage where Kili shouts Bofur's name at that part.
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Oct 8 2015, 3:39pm
Post #13 of 46
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I just saw the commentary and it was Bofur, I always thought they said Bombur, I was wrong.
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lionoferebor
Rohan
Oct 8 2015, 4:33pm
Post #14 of 46
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I'm not sure what scenes would have not made it into the final cut had they stayed with the two film layout. However, I do believe certain subplots may have played out differently and probably would not have been so heavily focused on.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Oct 8 2015, 8:08pm
Post #15 of 46
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Well I think you're mostly right
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I've read that the original ending of the 1st movie was Bard standing on the shore with his arrow pointed at them - would have been a good cliffhanger. I've also read that the carrock scene was added at the last minute, although surely the Eagles were always going to fly them away. I've no idea how that scene would have transitioned. Also read that the Forges scene was created in pickups in 2013, and the Chance Meeting prologue was also added after the 3 movie split. It would be a shame if the Chance Meeting scene were left out, it's definitely one of my favorites.
Now, there's no doubt that the Warg Chase scene was too long, and also some of the Goblin Tunnel stuff, but there's a difference between cutting them down and eliminating them, which I don't think they would have been eliminated. However, some of the fight scenes at the end of DOS, specifically the Legolas v Bolg thing, actually felt like additions to me designed to fill space, whereas the beginning of DOS felt pretty rushed at times. I truly think that PJ ended up with enough film for 2 1/2 movies, and therefore decided to go with the 3 movie split. To me that explains both some of the filler material at the end of DOS AND the reason BOT5A was so choppy - the "snappy thriller pace" being the explanation for a movie that felt rushed and incomplete in places. Biggest question I have for you is the Dol Goldur subplot. I think it was always a part of the plan, but it was a plan that changed a lot as the movies went on. Many have told me that the High Fells scene was originally intended to take place while the rest of the Dwarves were in the Misty Mountains, and to be honest that makes NO SENSE to me. It makes more sense to me that Gandalf would leave them at Mirkwood to go do this. Either/or, that would have occurred in the original 1st movie anyway, but that also means that the bit about Gandalf being captured & rescued by the White Council would also have stayed in, at least that's what it means to me. Finally the Kili/Tauriel thing, you'll have a hard time doing away with that since Kili gets wounded at the river, and left behind in Laketown. Besides James Nesbit's film schedule, there was a good reason to leave some of the Dwarves in Laketown. It upped the stakes a bit for the Company, knowing some of their own were in danger, plus it explained Kili's protesting to Thorin about the plight of the Laketowners. Yes, that could have been accomplished without the split, but I just don't know how you'd get around that split. And if Kili is wounded, well, Tauriel's got to fix him I guess. Maybe you'll have some luck with that - I could be wrong, maybe it would be okay without all that.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 8 2015, 8:17pm
Post #16 of 46
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Biggest question I have for you is the Dol Goldur subplot. I think it was always a part of the plan, but it was a plan that changed a lot as the movies went on. Many have told me that the High Fells scene was originally intended to take place while the rest of the Dwarves were in the Misty Mountains, and to be honest that makes NO SENSE to me. It makes more sense to me that Gandalf would leave them at Mirkwood to go do this.
I can see how this would have worked in the two-film structure. Gandalf goes to the High Fells (which is presumably in the Misty Mountains north of Rivendell) and then catches up with the company in time to rescue our dwarves from the goblins. He would then stay with the group until reaching the eaves of Mirkwood since they were all heading in the same direction anyway. This (as in the book) is when he would leave to head to Dol Guldur.
It makes far less sense for Gandalf to travel all the way to Mirkwood only to turn around and head back to the mountains.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Legomir
Rivendell
Oct 8 2015, 8:25pm
Post #17 of 46
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Even though I'm pretty sure the scene of Gandalf and Radagast after the High Falls was a pickup, I think it would have been a great transition to go from Gandalf saying, "You want me to leave my friends behind?" to Radagast and then the next time we see him is when he sends the shockwave that knocks the Goblins back in Goblin Town, with Gandalf appearing in silhouette with his theme playing and then coming into the light and saying "To arms!" That would have been really cool, even though I don't have a problem with the High Fells scene being in DOS.
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LSF
Gondor
Oct 8 2015, 8:26pm
Post #18 of 46
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That could answer why it took him so long to catch up to the Company in the Misty Mountains.
Though I like it and think it does work as is. He doesn't know or understand exactly what the threat is, and so turning back to find out does give more urgency to the DG plot. He is also very reluctant to leave the Company. Even after he finds out about Angmar and Sauron potentially rising, his first thought is the safety of the Company, not that he should go see exactly what is in DG. It's Radagast who convinces him they need to investigate.
But yes, it would easily work how you mentioned.
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Oakensword
The Shire
Oct 8 2015, 8:37pm
Post #19 of 46
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I just pulled up the write up for an old Bolg/Gandalf action figure set from AUJ. The two film/three film split rendered a lot of first wave merchandise redundant or inaccurate so maybe there's some clues there? Example; Lego issued a Spiders set and a Barrel Escape set a year ahead of time. Anyway back to that write up, the card for Bolg reads:
" The spawn of Azog, Bolg, like his sire, is a giant, pale Orc. Keeper of the dungeons of Dol Guldur, Bolg takes pleasure in torture. His armour is embelished with bones and blood of his victims. Powerfully built, this Orc is afraid of nothing and no one, that is, until he comes up against a surprising foe."
That would suggest to me that earlier in the game Bolg was to be killed by Galadriel, which appears to have been reshaped and is still present in BOTFA. I wonder what Legolas' purpose was at this stage? I'm slightly relieved to know Beorn was never in line to do the job, it makes Bolg's death more bearable to me. I was told once that much earlier on Galadriel was to expose the pits and thus set the actual war in motion but I have no official source on that.
(This post was edited by Oakensword on Oct 8 2015, 8:41pm)
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Legomir
Rivendell
Oct 8 2015, 8:53pm
Post #20 of 46
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Differences from two-film version and three-film version
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This might be a bit repetitive with the other posters on this thread, but oh well. It's gonna be a LONG post, so sorry.
This is nowhere near a complete list, but from what I've heard on here and in interviews, the two film structure was this:
AUJ
1. Brief clip of the Battle of Azanulbizar in the prologue
2. The scene of Young Bilbo and Gandalf at the Old Took's party wasn't in the script at first; it was a suggestion from Ian McKellen.
3. The sequence of Balin narrating the Battle of Azanulbizar was not in the film. There might have been a small bit of Fili and Kili telling Bilbo about Orcs and then us seeing the Warg scouts briefly, but I'm not sure.
4. Bofur was originally captured by the trolls instead of Bilbo
5. Gandalf telling Bilbo about true courage being about when to spare a life wasn't in the film
6. At the very least, Bilbo and Thorin's side of overhearing Gandalf and Elrond talking about the strain of madness in Thorin's family was filmed in pickups. Possibly the entire scene.
7. The High Fells was somewhere between the Gandalf/Galdriel scene and the Stone Trolls or cave scene.
8. Azog made his big reveal in the Out-of-the-Frying-Pan scene. None of the other scenes featuring him prior to here were in the film. The Warg Scouts in the action scene were led by Fimbul. Azog's appearance was supposed to be a surprise. (Don't know how it's possible to recreate that in a fan edit though :/ )
9. Thorin originally charged Azog, got knocked down, and then the eagles immediately attacked. Bilbo, Dwalin, and the others coming to his aid was not in the film; added to make it more climactic.
10. The Carrock scene was either not in or very different. Thorin did not accept Bilbo here. Maybe the dialogue here was originally at the end of the barrels scene.
11. Obviously, the thrush and Smaug ending wasn't there.
DOS
1. The chance meeting in Bree wasn't in the film. I don't know how much of the scene of Bilbo seeing Beorn and Azog and telling the Company and them deciding to go to the house was in originally. Maybe they saw Beorn and Azog from the Carrock? (That's what it is in the Lego game, not that that's reliable)
2. Azog wasn't called away by Bolg quite yet.
3. The Battle of Azanulbizar flashback story was told in Beorn's house (presumably after Beorn asks how they know about him)
4. It's likely that the Galadriel telepathy scene at the gates of Mirkwood was either very different or possibly gone).
5. Thranduil telling Tauriel about Legolas' feelings for her wasn't in BUT the scene of her telling him about spiders spreading and stuff was in.
6. Azog led the Warg attack during the barrels scene (again, impossible with a fan edit, unless you put in the shot from the trailer in there somewhere to make it seem like he's still there)
7. I'm not 100% on this but I'm pretty sure the original prosthetic Bolg was at Dol Guldur, doing the same things Azog does in the final film.
8. The first film is said to have ended with Bard's silhouette behind the Company. My gut feeling is that there was one other scene after this: Sauron using the Palantir to show Gandalf a vision of Smaug leading an Orc army. That would be a great cliffhanger.
END OF FILM ONE
9. Film Two opens up with the Company on Bard's boat, so the scene of them convincing him was not in the film
10. Thranduil, Legolas, and Tauriel interrogating Narzug was probably somewhere between Bard getting into Lake-Town and them getting off the barge to go to the house. That makes the most sense to me pacing-wise but I'm not too sure.
11. Also my gut feeling is that around here is the scene of Azog being summoned to Dol Guldur, leaving Fimbul (originally much more prominent) to enter Lake-Town with the Orcs.
12. Lake-Town was very different. I haven't gotten too many details but I almost get the impression that the Company was captured during the marketplace scene in the EE of DOS, which would have been AFTER the scene of the Master's spies watching Bard (because Stephen Colbert and Peter Jackson had cameos there done during the original shoot). They are then brought directly to the Master. If true (and I'm definitely not certain) that means that all the stuff of the Company in Bard's house, the entire Dwarvish Windlance subplot, Bard finding the tapestry, and the Company raiding the armory was NOT in the original film. (If anyone else reads this and finds something to dispute, please let me know. I'm really curious about this stuff, in case that isn't evident.)
13. Somewhere in there was a scene of the Company going through Dale.
14. Also worthy of note: there is probably a lot of footage of Azog torturing Gandalf and trying to drain his Ring that was lost during the shuffle of two films to three. I'd guess that Gandalf was freed around the Fire and Water scene, which would be around an hour into the film, so there'd have to be scenes of him filling that previous hour.
15. Most of the Lake-Town stuff during the climax of the film WAS in the original shoot, the only pickup there to my knowledge is Legolas fighting Bolg and then chasing him (after all, originally Bolg was busy in Dol Guldur at the time).
16. The entire Forge battle and Smaug the Golden was a pickup to create a climax for the film. In the special features, we see Martin Freeman filming the scene of Smaug deciding to go to Lake-Town while still in the treasure chamber, not the "Hall of King" so it probably never left that room.
BOTFA
This one I have barely any idea what was pickup and what was not, given that A. The EE isn't out and B. I think they put off shooting most of this third of the story until the pickups, focusing on other things during the 2011-2012 filming period after they started thinking of splitting it into three. (I think Hugo Weaving said something implying this).
The only things I'm pretty sure of:
1. Legolas might have been in Lake-Town during Smaug's attack, maybe failing to kill the dragon and showing him weak for a moment, not unlike him getting injured fighting Bolg in the final film.
2. I feel like the whole Mount Gundabad excursion wasn't originally there, but that raises the question of what Legolas and Tauriel originally did during the film, which I have no idea of.
3. Azog would have left with the army before Elrond, Saruman, and Galadriel enter Dol Guldur. Bolg would be injured by Galadriel but survived and then rejoined with his father and sent to lead the second front. Beorn would have been rescued from Dol Guldr by Radagast, as has been mentioned here. Gandalf would have sent Beorn and Radagast to gather allies (the Eagles) and returned as in the final film. I don't know if we would have SEEN Beorn and Radagast doing anything, however.
Aaaaaaand, that's it. This post has ran-on very long, and I apologize for that. Exactly what changed is something I'm really interested in, and I'd really like to know what I've gotten right and what I've gotten wrong here.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 8 2015, 9:01pm
Post #21 of 46
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Gandalf, the White Council and Dol Guldur
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Though I like it and think it does work as is. He doesn't know or understand exactly what the threat is, and so turning back to find out does give more urgency to the DG plot. He is also very reluctant to leave the Company. Even after he finds out about Angmar and Sauron potentially rising, his first thought is the safety of the Company, not that he should go see exactly what is in DG. It's Radagast who convinces him they need to investigate.
It is worth noting that the timing here, in TH:BotFA, is different than in the book. It would seem that it was after Gandalf left the company at Mirkwood that Tolkien had him meet with the White Council, since there is no indication in the novel that such a gathering took place while Thorin and Company was in Rivendell--and the Tale of Years in LotR places the meeting in the Fall.
It seems likely that, from the time that Bilbo and the Dwarves entered Mirkwood, it took them roughly two months or more to reach Lake-town (especially in TH:DoS, where they arrive in Esgaroth only two days before Durin's Day). In this context, it makes some sense to have Gandalf's investigation of the tombs in Rhudaur here. The timing of the Council's attack on Dol Guldur is also pushed back to near the end of Autumn (whereas, in the book it seems to take place about the same time that Bilbo and the Dwarves are escaping from the Wood-elves around mid-September or so).
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 8 2015, 9:04pm)
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ProudFeet
Bree
Oct 8 2015, 9:08pm
Post #22 of 46
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Thanks for the great reply. Yeah the whole High Fells thing taking place at the same time as the Misty Mountains makes no sense to me. I like the fact that Gandalf had to travel at haste to rescue the Dwarves because he knew what peril they would face. I moved the High Fells as the beginning of the second film. I open with a cliffnotes version of the White Council scene and set up where Gandalf is heading to (this would allow an audience who had not seen the film a year apart to understand what was going on). It also sets the tone when he says that 'The enemy is preparing for war'. I then recap the Dwarves getting out of the barrels and confronting Bard and the rest plays out as normal. I think that Dol Guldur stuff was a worthy addition and needed to be in the film. Loved all of that stuff and it was great seeing Cate Blanchett and Christopher Lee back for that.
As for the Kili/Tauriel problem, I still have Kili being injured because of the barrel chase, and he stays behind with the other Dwarves, but it's assumed he is cured by Oin at some point during his rest at Laketown. He still sees the plight of the people of Laketown and his character gets development. I also edited it now where Kili tries to rescue a downed Bilbo at the hands of Bolg and is killed in the process, which sparks Legolas into action to take down Bolg before he gets chance to kill Bilbo. I think it works but some may still like that romantic element. Personally, it did absolutely nothing for me and it reminded me of Anakin and Padme from the Star Wars prequels.
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LSF
Gondor
Oct 8 2015, 9:09pm
Post #23 of 46
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But in the DOS commentary, PJ and Philippa said they majorly condensed down the amount of time that they spent in Mirkwood compared to the book timeline. In the book they spent weeks wandering around lost, then weeks in the dungeon. In the movie, I got the impression that they spent a week at most in the forest, and only a day in the dungeon. And that's backed up by the commentary.
I still think where the Gandalf story is now works within this timeline.
Also, I haven't read the books, so I'll defer to your knowledge on the exact book timeline
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TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense
Rohan
Oct 8 2015, 9:09pm
Post #24 of 46
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Don't get me wrong, I loved that exchange in the first movie, but I think he accepts Bilbo much too early. Bilbo saving Thorin's life was added when the decision was made to go to 3 movies. As in the book, the moment Bilbo proves himself to the company and Thorin is during/after the barrels, which is illustrated in the quote you just made. The ending of AUJ promised that Bilbo and Thorin would be really close, but we see no signs of this during Beorn's, or Mirkwood as Thorin is his usual moody and grim self and only shows signs of humanity again until the barrels. That's my opinion anyway.
Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but it comes across to me that you oppose the early development simply because it did not happen that way in the novel and the first half of DoS doesn't insist on overtly reminding us of Thorin's acceptance, but I ask: why should it? They are not at odds anymore - which is clearly seen - and of course the moment I mentioned (and several more in both Laketown and Erebor) rest upon this earlier acceptance. Not to mention, the very notion of 'acceptance' denotes there's no need to keep pointing it all out. He's accepted and that incongruity has been handled. That being said, the quest for Erebor, the greater stakes regarding Smaug and the Dol Goldur subplot, and even the distinction between dwarves (because, let's face it, there's 13 of them and that's a lot of characters to keep up with in an action-adventure film) probably do need to be reaffirmed, which they are at the 'chance' meeting, the borders of Mirkwood, and the extended sequence at Beorn's house, respectively.
Also, Thorin must become progressively 'moody and grim' over the course of the tale because of his growing obsession with reclaiming his home and the gold horde, eventually resulting in the dragon sickness that he succumbs to. There's no real need for these characters to go backwards in their paces.
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Oct 8 2015, 9:10pm
Post #25 of 46
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12. Lake-Town was very different. I haven't gotten too many details but I almost get the impression that the Company was captured during the marketplace scene in the EE of DOS, which would have been AFTER the scene of the Master's spies watching Bard (because Stephen Colbert and Peter Jackson had cameos there done during the original shoot). They are then brought directly to the Master. If true (and I'm definitely not certain) that means that all the stuff of the Company in Bard's house, the entire Dwarvish Windlance subplot, Bard finding the tapestry, and the Company raiding the armory was NOT in the original film. (If anyone else reads this and finds something to dispute, please let me know. I'm really curious about this stuff, in case that isn't evident.)
The dwarfs getting through the toilet and the Girion flashback scene was in the two part film because Andy Serkis shot those scenes and he was only second unit director during principole photogaphy.
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