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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 7 2015, 6:46am
Post #76 of 127
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I think it's telling that , at the end of the book, the ents don't seem all that enthusiastic about using new 4th age travel freedoms to renew their search
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I think they are more in love with the memory of what was, than driven to find out what might still be.
~~~~~~
Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 7 2015, 9:47am
Post #77 of 127
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Good point! I think that Saruman often reveals his nature by the accusations he makes of others (especially Gandalf!)//
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~~~~~~
Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 7 2015, 9:59am
Post #78 of 127
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Just to recap then, here is the Book III schedule
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week starts # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
13-Sep-15 # I # The Departure of Boromir # MirielCelebel http://goo.gl/zpn7Rg
20-Sep-15 # II # The Riders of Rohan # Brethil http://goo.gl/yKNv7E and http://goo.gl/mxesBG
27-Sep-15 # III # The Uruk-hai # cats16 http://goo.gl/LUWJi1
04-Oct-15 # IV # Treebeard # Mikah http://goo.gl/2CqCXS
11-Oct-15 # V # The White Rider # Entwife Wandlimb
18-Oct-15 # VI # The King of the Golden Hall # squire
25-Oct-15 # VII # Helm's Deep # arithmancer
01-Nov-15 # VIII # The Road to Isengard # Darkstone
08-Nov-15 # IX # Flotsam and Jetsam # Enanito
15-Nov-15 # X # The Voice of Saruman # jochenkeen
22-Nov-15 # XI # The Palantir # Elizabeth
I'll maintain that and any changes on the thread given in my footer, but I'll ask the admins to make that 'un-sticky' so that it doesn't take up prime position in the Reading Room board any more.
Thank you so much to our chapter leaders - and also to everyone who has responded to their posts so enthusiastically (it wouldn't be much fun to write an OP and get little or no reaction!)
~~~~~~
Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 7 2015, 10:09am
Post #79 of 127
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Imagining Treebeard (when mistaken for a tree)
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I kinda imagine him something like this - a venerable oak from Sherwood forest.
(Caption - photograph of an old oak tree from Sherwood Forest, from https://newarktic.wordpress.com/...k-woodland-festival/ . The tree has a wide gnarly trunk, with a few major branches sprouting quite low - shoulder level perhaps. This old tree does not have the extensive and fairly symmetrical canopy of a younger tree. It might, perhaps, look like a 'stump' )
With (I think) no textual evidence to back me, I have always imagined Treebeard as being oak -like, somehow. I think I made that up, from noticing that some of the other ents seem to resemble particular kinds of trees.
How do other folks imagine him?
~~~~~~
Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 7 2015, 10:18am
Post #80 of 127
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Or, perhaps, two aspects of the human mind?
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Poet Mary Oliver writes about how as a girl she would make huts of sticks and leaves in the woods:
Many children build this way, but ore often than not as a social act, where they play games of territory and society. For me it was important to be alone: solitude was a prerequisite to being openly and joyfully susceptible and responsive to the world of leaves, light, birdsong, flowers, flowing water. Most of the adult world spoke of such things as opportunities, and materials. To the young the materials are still celestial; for every child the garden is recreated. Then the occlusions begin. The mountain and forest are sublime but the valley soil raises richer crops. The perfect gift is no longer a single house, but a house, or a mind, divided. man finds that he has two halves to his existence: leisure and occupation, and from these separate considerations he now looks upon the world. In leisure he remembers radiance; in labor he looks for results.
Long Life, by Mary Oliver, Da Capo Press 2004
~~~~~~
Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Oct 7 2015, 10:19am)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 7 2015, 11:43am
Post #81 of 127
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Yes, there's more than stereotypical gender roles at play here, I think ..
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Tolkien is contrasting gardens (quite explicitly) and agriculture, to their predecessors, untamed nature and pastoralism. This is one of the oldest contrasts in human social history, and perhaps in human nature. Of course you agree the Entwives aren't 'evil' but really, the degree of control that a garden or a cornfield represents is hardly comparable even to the technological ethic of industrialism, any more than the presence of a policeman on a village street is, or the idea that one should dust and clean ones house, do the dishes, and wash ones clothes and body from time to time.
I agree that if an Entwife showed up in your living room, she'd express her opinion about anything that betrayed what we might once have called a "bachelor lifestyle"! But I don't think that means she'd go so far as to rearrange your house -- if it wasn't hers!
I think there's a good point - there's a mythological element to read into this if one wants, and I do want. The entwives taught a lot of agriculture to Men (by which Tolkien means 'men and women' of course) - maybe they are in that way like the various and often female mythological deities of the harvest.
But, once again, anyone wanting to apply simplistic gender stereotypes to Middle-earth is going to find Tolkien too complex, I think. So yes, we can think that Fangorn has become shabby because of lack of entwives (on the stereotypical assumption that tidying up and cleaning are female duties). But then the other stereotype is that 'men do and women are'. The entwives certainly confound that, going off to do their agriculture research despite that not being a project that the ents are interested in. Very modern and feminist of them to be career entwives.
Indeed, if we expected Tolkien to conform to the gender stereotypes of his time and society, wouldn't we expect M&P to encounter the entwives (not the ents)? Wouldn't we expect the women-folk having been left at home in the forest because their husbands first went out to work on this farming project and then got massacred?
Hmm - having Isengard attacked by angry female tree herders? Gives "Amazon warriors" a whole new meaning 
 Must...stop...posting...so ...much (but the conversation is so interesting!)
~~~~~~
Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
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enanito
Rohan
Oct 7 2015, 12:26pm
Post #82 of 127
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Yet like many effective lies, Saruman mixes a lot of truth into his accusations of others. We seem to see this attributed throughout LOTR to Gandalf in many ways -- he uses people then 'forgets' about them, he is never around when you need him, he only comes when he needs something from you, he rarely takes anyone into his confidence (making you feel used), he allows his big-picture to override any concern for individuals harmed in the name of the greater good, etc.
So what differentiates Gandalf from Saruman in this regard? Gandalf's heart is in the right place? Or do the nuances of Gandalf's actions make all the difference in him being good and Saruman being evil?
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Oct 7 2015, 1:02pm
Post #83 of 127
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'A few seemed more or less related to Treebeard, and reminded them of beech-trees or oaks.'
That said, I don't imagine Treebeard like the photo in your post. I don't think the text allows for more than two notable branches here (which turned out to be arms) for one thing, and as the more in depth description begins: "It belonged to a large Man-like, almost Troll-like, figure,.." I imagine a fairly Mannish figure, at least more like Groot than your photo for example,...
... but not exactly Groot either, and tree-ish due to the qualities of barky skin, or if smooth the coloring of smooth bark, tree colours, height (yet not close to the height of full grown oaks or beeches). It's interesting that Bregalad is said to have grey-green "hair", and that some had short thick legs, I guess "short" relative to their size.
"A few seemed more or less related to Treebeard, and reminded them of beech-trees or oaks. But there were other kinds. Some recalled the chestnut: brown-skinned Ents with large splayfingered hands, and short thick legs. Some recalled the ash: tall straight grey Ents with many-fingered hands and long legs; some the fir (the tallest Ents), and others the birch, the rowan, and the linden."
Bregalad: "... he had smooth shining skin on his arms and legs; his lips were ruddy, and his hair was grey-green. He could bend and sway like a slender tree in the wind."
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Oct 7 2015, 1:24pm
Post #84 of 127
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at least more like Groot than your photo for example,... but not exactly Groot either,
Thinking of film Groot there 
Though as I say, more to suggest a fairly mannish form compared to that picture of an oak... awesome as it is.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Oct 7 2015, 4:54pm
Post #85 of 127
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The mythology element is striking
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I glossed over it on my first couple of reads, but later it gave me pause. The Entwives are Prometheus-like in teaching agriculture to Men, which is surprising because it seemed like Elves taught Men everything, or Morgoth taught the non-Edain, so who are these Men that don't know about farming that needed talking trees to educate them as a benevolent intervention, and why don't the tales of Men remember them? Did the Enthusbands teach Men anything too, or was the teaching limited to the Wives? If the Elves taught the Ents speech, did they teach them agriculture too, or was that something the Wives devised on their own?
And I agree about the Wives breaking out of the gender stereotype: they seem much more determined and ambitious than the wandering, easygoing Husbands, and they have their own agenda. Then there's the complication with Aldarion & Erendis. Aldarion had the great ambition and drive to build boats and explore the world as a wanderer, while Erendis was the stay-at-home. But the Entwives were the ambitious, determined ones driven to find new lands to control and garden, contrasted with the stay-at-home Husbands.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Oct 7 2015, 5:07pm
Post #86 of 127
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I'll admit on my very first read, I was disturbed by Saruman's speech about Gandalf at Bag Eng, and I had the gnawing sensation that the hobbits had been used and discarded just as he said. But I think the differences between the wizards exist not only in intent but in engagement. As supporting examples, I'd say:
- Gandalf is the one steadily supplying Treebeard with outside news for centuries, beyond what he needs to tell him.
- Gandalf had every intention of helping Frodo throughout the Quest.
- Gandalf was thoughtful enough to tip off Merry & Pippin to come to the Grey Havens so Sam wouldn't have to ride home alone.
- When Gandalf seemingly abandoned the hobbits after Bree to go talk with Bombadil, he told them they didn't need him anymore. That was their growing up moment when they needed to realize they weren't kids any longer and could face adult situations on their own. The whole Shire needed to realize that, in fact. So, maybe it was tough love, but every parent has to let their kid go sometime, or they live in your basement forever.
- More generally, I think Saruman liked to command from behind in his tower, whereas Gandalf was always in the mix. Even at Helm's Deep, when he seemingly disappeared, he was really accomplishing two things: 1) making sure Saruman's power was contained, and 2) summoning both Huorns and the Westfold Men to rescue Theoden.
- He led the defense of Minas Tirith when Denethor collapsed, and he was the only one left defending the Great Gate. He would have joined the battle if not detained at the Houses of Healing (which is a rather weak plot point for me personally, but still, it's Tolkien's defense for his inaction).
After closer examination, I think there are differences in how the two "use" people. I don't deny that Gandalf views everyone as a chess piece, but I think he sees them as an worthy individual too. To Saruman, they're just a chess piece.
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squire
Half-elven
Oct 7 2015, 7:00pm
Post #87 of 127
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Gender conventions among immortals
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This discussion reminds me of the times I've had to struggle with Tolkien's presentation of gender roles among the Elves. Much of human society is predicated on fact that mature women will spend most of their active years bearing and caring for children. How that drives the almost universal prevalence of patriarchy is not clear to me, but I suspect there is a strong connection - in any case, patriarchy is certainly the norm in European cultures such as Tolkien adapted for his races of Middle-earth.
Yet both the Elves and Ents are effectively immortal, and are restricted by the author from being endlessly fertile for the obvious reasons of overpopulation, ecological disaster, internecine wars, etc. Thus the females of these species spend almost all of their 10,000-year lives not bearing and raising children. They are entirely free, in ways mortal women cannot be, to do... what? And whatever it is they do, on what basis can the males say, no you can't?
I don't think Tolkien cared to work all this out in too much detail. He needed his imaginary world to be similar enough to our own for us to identify with the sensation of living in it. We almost never see the average Elven women doing anything, for instance, although Tolkien implies they spend a heck of a lot of time weaving.
But this point today, that with the Ents, the women were the "adventurers abroad, with their gardens" and the men were the "stay at homes, with their flocks" is new to me, and welcome. It seems like a clever and creative turnaround from any known human society!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
 = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Oct 7 2015, 7:34pm
Post #88 of 127
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"The Uruks turn Northeast. They are taking the hobbits to Isengard!"
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Movie Legolas is famous for being directionally challenged, but it's really easy to get disoriented. We were running North for a while, and then west. Here is a great high-res interactive map that I find really useful in keeping track of the routes around Middle Earth. Click on the red dots to see what happened at this spot!
It's easy to see from the map how the Uruks (followed by the 3 Hunters) ran north from Parth Galen and then turned west toward Isengard, as well as where the Entwash flows out of Fangorn Forest.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Oct 7 2015, 8:50pm
Post #89 of 127
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Ents > trees, and Trees > Ents
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Mikah, your OP brought up Ents becoming tree-ish, and that fits well within the overall scope of the Third Age where Men are going to dominate the Fourth Age while the other races decline. What doesn't quite fit is that the Fangorn trees are waking up and imitating their shepherds. Treebeard remarks that the Ents' own version of "fading" is their becoming sleepy and sedentary, but isn't this reverse process of trees becoming mobile and sentient contrary to the general flow of fate in M-earth?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Oct 7 2015, 8:57pm
Post #90 of 127
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I won't limit myself to just one, because I enjoy a lot of what Treebeard says, but this one would be in my top ten. I love how he venerates what is ancient and finds "hill" too short a word for something that deserves so much more to be said about it.
"Let us leave this –did you say what you call it?’
‘Hill?’ suggested Pippin.
‘Shelf? Step?’ suggested Merry.
Treebeard repeated the words thoughtfully. ‘Hill. Yes, that was it. But it is a hasty word for a thing that has stood here ever since this part of the world was shaped.’
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Oct 7 2015, 9:35pm
Post #91 of 127
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The Treebeard-Arwen connection
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One thing Treebeard says about the fate of the Ents finding the Entwives again sounds very similar to Arwen's fate:
Treebeard: "But it is foreboded that that will only be when we have both lost all that we now have."
From Appendix A: "But Arwen became as a mortal woman, and yet it was not her lot to die until all that she had gained was lost."
How intentional is this? Does Tolkien think you have to lose everything you value before you can meet your final fate?
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Darkstone
Immortal
Oct 7 2015, 10:01pm
Post #92 of 127
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for we brought nothing into the world, and we cannot take anything out of the world.
-1 Timothy 6:7
******************************************
"Mister Frodo, hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good frying pan at your side. I’ve been from one side of this garden to the other, I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Providence controlling everything. There's no Music of the Ainur that controls my destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense."
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Mikah
Lorien
Oct 7 2015, 11:14pm
Post #93 of 127
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I think intention matters a lot. A friend of mine is writing a book, which I was beta-reading for her, along with other members of her writing group. Her protagonist was not coming off as likeable as she hoping for. The advice that my husband gave was "give him a conscience, let us know what drives his actions." Excellent advice. I say that to say this, I think that Tolkien gave us a glimpse of Gandalf's personality here and there. You remember the discussion with Frodo regarding Gollum? The discussion that he had with Pippin regarding the death that they could very well come to? I think that these types of things go a long way in making Gandalf a more likeable character than he would have been without them.
But every great lie is based on at least some truth. I think that Gandalf could definitely be perceived in the same way as Saruman, if we had not been given glimpses into his heart, so to speak.
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Mikah
Lorien
Oct 7 2015, 11:46pm
Post #94 of 127
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They don't exactly stand by their man, do they?
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I have always thought the love affairs of the immortals to be rather strange indeed. Remember Nerdanel (Feanor's wife)? She didn't seem to mind Feanor trotting off to Middle Earth. Her greatest despair was of his offense to the Vala and her sons going with Feanor.
We have also read that Finrod was in love with Amarie, who clearly did not come to Middle Earth either. Nothing against Amarie, Finrod clearly preferred the choice of Middle Earth over his love as well.
Perhaps after thousands of years with somebody, they tend to wear on you?
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Mikah
Lorien
Oct 7 2015, 11:59pm
Post #96 of 127
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Standing still in a forest, you might not notice 'em for what they really are, until one takes you by the shoulder and turns you around...and now you really look!
This would be true whether you are a hobbit or a man. If Treebeard is 14 feet tall, men roughly six feet tall, and hobbits only three, it is safe to say that Treebeard is probably twice as tall as even the tallest! People typically do not walk looking up and neither do hobbits I would imagine. Especially in a dark and unfamiliar forest. An Ent, regardless of exact appearance would be difficult to spot indeed, especially when you take into account his most excellent camouflage.
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Mikah
Lorien
Oct 8 2015, 12:13am
Post #97 of 127
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Seriously! That is the coolest map ever and it is already saved to my favorites!!!
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Mikah
Lorien
Oct 8 2015, 12:25am
Post #98 of 127
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What doesn't quite fit is that the Fangorn trees are waking up and imitating their shepherds. Treebeard remarks that the Ents' own version of "fading" is their becoming sleepy and sedentary, but isn't this reverse process of trees becoming mobile and sentient contrary to the general flow of fate in M-earth?
Am I correct in my interpretation here that the general flow of fate in Middle-Earth would be fading...such as the elves? If that be the case, then yes it would be a reverse process wouldn't it? But I do not think that it would be strange considering the remarkable turn of events that led the tree's to "wake-up." If they hadn't have gotten off their trunks, there may have been very serious peril for them (a bit of tree humor there!). What I wonder is would the trees have woken up at all if they were not, in a sense, forced to?
There is always the possibility that I have misunderstood though and if I have please forgive me!
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Mikah
Lorien
Oct 8 2015, 12:27am
Post #99 of 127
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And I think he makes a rather valid point!
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Mikah
Lorien
Oct 8 2015, 12:34am
Post #100 of 127
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I love both of Paul's letters to Timothy.
That is a really profound question CuriousGeorge and a profound answer, Darkstone. I just kind of stared at my screen for a minute. Any chance that Tolkien thinks that one is never really ready to meet their fate until they have lost all that they have valued?
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