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Mikah
Lorien
Oct 5 2015, 2:30am
Post #1 of 127
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The Two Towers Read Through-Chapter 4 Treebeard.
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“We have a long way to go, and there is time ahead for thought. It is something to have started.” Treebeard.
I chose this chapter as I choose all of my chapters. It is the one that I have the most questions about. In hopes that The Reading Room will shed some light and bring clarity to the many inquiries that I have. Let’s get to it, shall we?
FANGORN FOREST
Merry and Pippin through a drastic escape and against the warning of Celeborn, have come into Fangorn Forest. Merry and Pippin seem to harbor feelings of apprehension. Merry even comments that it is “frightfully tree-ish” and he could not imagine even animals abiding there for long. What is it about this forest which would bring such a dire warning and feeling? How does this forest differ from Lothlorien or Mirkwood?
TREEBEARD
Merry and Pippin soon make the acquaintance of Treebeard. It is not an unpleasant first meeting; but strange. They are certainly awed by Treebeard, but do not seem particularly frightened. Treebeard seems rather confounded by the Hobbits. What are your first impressions of Treebeard and do they change through the reading? Treebeard is one of the oldest creatures in Middle Earth, how is it that he is not aware of the presence of hobbits?
Treebeard is rather knowledgeable about the happenings in Middle Earth. They talk at some length about Gandalf and the events which unfolded while on their adventure. Merry and Pippin do not mention the ring and Treebeard does not ask the purpose of their quest. Where do you believe Treebeard typically gets his news? Do you believe his interest is that of curiosity or is he hoping for news that may in some way further his own cause against Isengard? I think it is strange that Treebeard does not ask the reason for The Fellowship’s quest. Is there any possibility that Treebeard is aware of the ring and has guessed the purpose?
I started this OP with a quote from Treebeard. I consider him a very thoughtful character. It is my favorite quote of his. Do you have a favorite Treebeard quote?
ENTS
Ents have lived many ages and seen many things. Truly, numerous wars and the coming and going of many. The Ents leave an impression of something akin to sadness on Merry and Pippin. They also seem to have a fondness for the elves and lament the loss of their friendship. Do you share Merry and Pippin’s perception of Ents? What is it about this particular period in Middle Earth that would wear on the Ents or is this a personality trait that they have had from their beginning? What would cause the perceived apathy of the elves towards the forest at this time?
Treebeard also mentions many times that a great many Ents are growing sleepy and tree-ish? What is it exactly that Treebeard means by tree-ish? What is causing this change in the Ents?
TO WAR!
We know that Treebeard spoke of Saruman and his treachery. He believes that that Ents now have to become involved. He also speculates that Saruman had been turning evil for quite some time. As if perhaps, Saruman had been using Treebeard for information. He also theorizes that Saruman is doing “something to the Orc’s,” a black evil. Do you agree with Treebeard’s assessments? Is he correct in his assumption that Saruman had been turning to darkness for longer than anyone knew?
It does not take long for the Ents to decide to do something about Isengard. What do you believe their chances of success would have been, had events not unfolded the way they did?
ENTWIVES
A reoccurring theme in this chapter is the loss of the Entwives. Both Treebeard and Quickbeam wax nostalgic over them. Where are the Entwives and why have none seen them? Is there any possibility that they are no longer alive in Middle Earth? Do you believe that the departure and loss of the Entwives could be metaphoric?
MOVIE DEPICTION
Finally, what do you think of Peter Jackson’s portrayal of Fangorn Forest, Ents, and Treebeard? Did they translate well to screen? Do some parts work better than others? Would you have preferred anything to be done differently? What would you change, if anything?
IN CLOSING
As always thank you for giving me the opportunity to lead this chapter and pose my many questions. Answer as few or many as you care to. I am interested in everyone’s thoughts. I apologize if the OP is more convoluted than my previous chapter discussions. As all of you, I am writing this with a heavy heart due to Brethil’s loss. It is impossible for me to post here without thinking of her. Brethil, if you stop by here from time to time, I believe that I speak for all of us in the Reading Room when I tell you that we love you and are thinking of you. Let’s get to it, tell me what you think about Treebeard!
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SamBerry
The Shire
Oct 5 2015, 4:27am
Post #2 of 127
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"I'm as sad as the willow that weeps in the valley..."
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For some reason, whenever I hear Marty Robbins' "In The Valley", I always picture Treebeard/the Ents singing it for the Entwives.
"I'm as sad as the willow
That weeps in the valley
Since you've gone,
Since you've gone from my arms
I'm as sad as the cold wind
That rythes in the treetops,
I'll be lonesome until you return
Come back, come back,
Come back to the valley,
Come back to this poor cowboy's arms"
There's definitely a lot of nostalgia for the Entwives, and it kinda reminds us of the fading of the non-human in Middle-earth.
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Oct 5 2015, 10:16am
Post #3 of 127
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The agenda of Ents is not Elf-centric.
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FANGORN FOREST
What is it about this forest which would bring such a dire warning and feeling? How does this forest differ from Lothlorien or Mirkwood?
Elves dwell in both Lothlorien and Mirkwood, but not in Fangorn. They are apprehensive since they have zero control. Elves do like to be in charge. In Lothorien, Galadriel wears the ring and has power over the weather, the trees and plants, and perhaps time itself. In Mirkwood the elves are far less potent, but they do manage to keep safe perimeters. Of course, in Mirkwood the illness came from the evil leaking out of Dol Guldur. In Lothlorien the battle with evil is physically remote. In Fangorn the darkness is held at bay by the Ents (as Yavanna had planned), not by Elves.
The agenda of Ents is not Elf-centric.
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enanito
Rohan
Oct 5 2015, 8:54pm
Post #4 of 127
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TREEBEARD
The only person I can think of that would give Treebeard such extensive information would have to be Gandalf. Saruman, while a frequent visitor, is described as never having provided any info to Treebeard, only receiving. We know that the Elves are all estranged from Fangorn Forest, Legolas (son of the king of the Wood Elves) describes them as now only existing in their songs, and Celeborn/Galadriel's warnings about danger don't imply much snapchatting with Treebeard. Aragorn (in the next chapter, shhh!) states Treebeard is unknown to him and the existence of the Ents surprises him, so Men also seem to not be likely news-bearers. I suppose birds (eagles?) might be possible, but I'm not aware that this is intimated anywhere. Other potentials?
But why would Gandalf do this, besides enjoying a nice drink from the Entwash to refresh himself while chatting it up? Treebeard, while possessing a huge amount of historical knowledge, isn't necessarily someone you expect will benefit from knowing current events (being such a recluse), and there's definitely a breadth of awareness that's surprising. Possibly another of Gandalf's intuitions, that the latent power of the Ents might someday be brought to bear for good, so he cultivated the relationship -- hoping that an awareness of going-ons in the wide world might end up spurring him to action when needed?
Any other reasons why Gandalf might have spoken so freely with Treebeard? A sounding board perhaps?
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enanito
Rohan
Oct 5 2015, 9:16pm
Post #5 of 127
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Saruman a traitor? Not surprising to at least one being in M.E.
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TO WAR!
I find it interesting that Treebeard quickly (rather hastily!) connects the dots about Saruman's treachery, and correctly identifies Saruman as having long been on this path to evil. Perhaps the greatest minds of the Third Age - Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond - are shocked when they discover Saruman's deception (although that statement probably could start a nice subthread about whether Galadriel truly was surprised or not...).
Yet Treebeard had already seen that Saruman had become like "windows in a stone wall: windows with shutters inside". Granted he had first-hand experience with the orcs in Saruman's employ who cut down his trees, which apparently nobody else was aware of. However, I would think that any discussion he had with Gandalf about Saruman, would have been fairly glowing in nature, since right up to his imprisonment in Orthanc, Gandalf trusts the leader of the Istari. But from the simple words of a couple of hobbits, Treebeard extrapolates much that is true.
Do we attribute this to authorial discretion, allowing a character to correctly make conclusions that help the story along? Or is this a case of somebody older, wiser, and looking in at the world from the outside, being able to see some things clearer than those living in the world can see it?
(This post was edited by enanito on Oct 5 2015, 9:21pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Oct 5 2015, 9:32pm
Post #6 of 127
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When the dao prevails in the world, appear; when it does not, hide.
-The Analects
Merry and Pippin through a drastic escape and against the warning of Celeborn, have come into Fangorn Forest. Merry and Pippin seem to harbor feelings of apprehension. Merry even comments that it is “frightfully tree-ish” and he could not imagine even animals abiding there for long. What is it about this forest which would bring such a dire warning and feeling?
Forests typically are composed of five layers: a canopy, an understory layer (tall shrubs and shade tolerant trees), shrubs, an herb layer, and the forest floor (dead stuff). Old, mature forests with well-filled-in canopies are frequently very open underneath, and contain few shrubs and understory plants. Thus there is very little cover for animals to hide or nest. Not exactly a recipe for biodiversity. And hobbits being shy creatures, ready to hide at a moment’s notice, would feel very exposed and thus naturally find such an open area extremely oppressive.
How does this forest differ from Lothlorien or Mirkwood?
Fangorn is for trees, Lothlorien is for Elves, and Mirkwood is for royal hunting. (Considering the Bialowieza Forest, the last remnant of the ancient forest that covered all of Europe, only survived because it was a royal hunting reserve kinda indicates which of the three ultimately has the best protector.)
TREEBEARD
Merry and Pippin soon make the acquaintance of Treebeard. It is not an unpleasant first meeting; but strange. They are certainly awed by Treebeard, but do not seem particularly frightened.
Especially considering their experiences with the Old Forest and Old Man Willow.
Treebeard seems rather confounded by the Hobbits.
Probably because they don’t scream and take off running.
What are your first impressions of Treebeard…
Gnarly, but a bit dim.
…and do they change through the reading?
Still gnarly, but he seems a lot wiser than anyone, even Tolkien, gives him credit for.
Treebeard is one of the oldest creatures in Middle Earth, how is it that he is not aware of the presence of hobbits?
I’d suppose for the same reason hobbits are unaware of him. Plus Fangorn does not seem a place even a Stoor would venture into.
Treebeard is rather knowledgeable about the happenings in Middle Earth. They talk at some length about Gandalf and the events which unfolded while on their adventure. Merry and Pippin do not mention the ring and Treebeard does not ask the purpose of their quest. Where do you believe Treebeard typically gets his news?
In the face of the stony wall there was something like a stair: natural perhaps (Or perhaps artificial? -DS), and made by the weathering and splitting of the rock, for it was rough and uneven. High up, almost level with the tops of forest-trees, there was a shelf under a cliff.
…
"I can see and hear (and smell and feel) a great deal from this, from this, from this a-lalla-lalla-rumba-kamanda-lind-or-burúmë."
A Hill of Seeing *and* Hearing *and* Smelling *and* Feeling? Ancient Numenor had nothing on Fangorn!
Do you believe his interest is that of curiosity or is he hoping for news that may in some way further his own cause against Isengard?
Yes.
I think it is strange that Treebeard does not ask the reason for The Fellowship’s quest.
He knows the weakest link will eventually break and let the cat out of the bag. Pippin is even more impulsive than Sam, and Treebeard is even more patient than Faramir.
Is there any possibility that Treebeard is aware of the ring and has guessed the purpose?
I suspect that like Bombadil Such things have no hold on his mind.
I started this OP with a quote from Treebeard. I consider him a very thoughtful character. It is my favorite quote of his. Do you have a favorite Treebeard quote?
A couple:
”We must not be hasty. I have become too hot. I must cool myself and think; for it is easier to shout stop! than to do it.”
(Words to live, or at least run foreign policy, by.)
And of course:
“The world is changing: I feel it in the water, I feel it in the earth, and I smell it in the air.”
(I was delighted that at least *somebody* said it in the films!)
ENTS
Ents have lived many ages and seen many things. Truly, numerous wars and the coming and going of many. The Ents leave an impression of something akin to sadness on Merry and Pippin. They also seem to have a fondness for the elves and lament the loss of their friendship.
Well, they are gone, and here must I remain,
This lime-tree bower my prison! I have lost
Such beauties and such feelings, as had been
Most sweet to have remembrance, even when age
Had dimm'd mine eyes to blindness! They, meanwhile,
Friends, whom I never more may meet again,
On springy heath, along the hilltop edge,
Wander in gladness…
- Samuel Taylor Coleridge
Do you share Merry and Pippin’s perception of Ents?
Sure.
What is it about this particular period in Middle Earth that would wear on the Ents…
They’ve seen a lot of good trees, bushes, and ferns die over the past three ages. PTSD perhaps?
…or is this a personality trait that they have had from their beginning?
The world does seem to go by even more quickly for the Ents than for the Elves.
What would cause the perceived apathy of the elves towards the forest at this time?
Because Fangorn is not their forest:
"You are not at all like my rose," he said. "As yet you are nothing. No one has tamed you, and you have tamed no one. You are like my fox when I first knew him. He was only a fox like a hundred thousand other foxes. But I have made him my friend, and now he is unique in all the world."
And the roses were very much embarrassed.
"You are beautiful, but you are empty," he went on. "One could not die for you. To be sure, an ordinary passerby would think that my rose looked just like you--the rose that belongs to me. But in herself alone she is more important than all the hundreds of you other roses: because it is she that I have watered; because it is she that I have put under the glass globe; because it is she that I have sheltered behind the screen; because it is for her that I have killed the caterpillars (except the two or three that we saved to become butterflies); because it is she that I have listened to, when she grumbled, or boasted, or ever sometimes when she said nothing. Because she is my rose.”
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, The Little Prince
Treebeard also mentions many times that a great many Ents are growing sleepy and tree-ish?
“Tree-ish” is a language pun. An Ent is a tree man. “Ish” is Hebrew for “man”. Thus “tree-ish” also means “tree-man”.
What is it exactly that Treebeard means by tree-ish?
I’d say loss of self-awareness. Like a Man would go feral, except in an Ent’s case he’d go arboral, but not arboreal, which is something completely different, and in the case of a really, really short Ent he’d go arbustal.
What is causing this change in the Ents?
Same thing as the Fading of the Elves, only the tree-ish Ents can’t sail to Valinor, unless Cirdan uses them as lumber, in which case we’ve discovered one of the Dark Secrets of Middle-earth.
TO WAR!
We know that Treebeard spoke of Saruman and his treachery.
I like how Treebeard refers to him as “young Saruman”, echoed by him referring to “young Master Gandalf” in the films.
(See Letter #153: [Treebeard] does not know what ‘wizards’ are, or whence they came…)
He believes that that Ents now have to become involved. He also speculates that Saruman had been turning evil for quite some time.
See “While Fangorn Slept”, by Winston Church-a-lalla-lalla-rumba-kamanda-lind-or-burúmë.
As if perhaps, Saruman had been using Treebeard for information.
Straight from the gorse’s mouth!
He also theorizes that Saruman is doing “something to the Orc’s,” a black evil.
He saw something nasty in the woodshed.
Do you agree with Treebeard’s assessments?
Nice to know I’m not the only one to consider Saruman a weinie!
Is he correct in his assumption that Saruman had been turning to darkness for longer than anyone knew?
Despite Letter # 153 (Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand.) he saw and understood what the Wise of Middle-earth did not!
It does not take long for the Ents to decide to do something about Isengard.
Treebeard facilitated the heck out of that meeting! (Just like Gandalf did with Elrond’s Council!)
What do you believe their chances of success would have been, had events not unfolded the way they did?
Definitely would have been a sour note in the Music of the Ainur.
ENTWIVES
A reoccurring theme in this chapter is the loss of the Entwives.
Both Treebeard and Quickbeam wax nostalgic over them.
“How Can I Miss You If You Won’t Go Away?” by Dan Hicks and his Hot Licks.
Where are the Entwives…
But the Entwives gave their minds to the lesser trees, and to the meads in the sunshine beyond the feet of the forests; and they saw the sloe in the thicket, and the wild apple and the cherry blossoming in spring, and the green herbs in the waterlands in summer, and the seeding grasses in the autumn fields.
-Treebeard
All about them [Frodo, Sam and Gollum] were small woods of resinous trees, fir and cedar and cypress, and other kinds unknown in the Shire, with wide glades among them; and everywhere there was a wealth of sweet-smelling herbs and shrubs. The long journey from Rivendell had brought them far south of their own land, but not until now in this more sheltered region had the hobbits felt the change of clime. Here Spring was already busy about them: fronds pierced moss and mould, larches were green-fingered, small flowers were opening in the turf, birds were singing. Ithilien, the garden of Gondor now desolate kept still a dishevelled dryad loveliness.
South and west it looked towards the warm lower vales of Anduin, shielded from the east by the Ephel Dúath and yet not under the mountain-shadow, protected from the north by the Emyn Muil, open to the southern airs and the moist winds from the Sea far away. Many great trees grew there, planted long ago, falling into untended age amid a riot of careless descendants; and groves and thickets there were of tamarisk and pungent terebinth, of olive and of bay; and there were junipers and myrtles; and thymes that grew in bushes, or with their woody creeping stems mantled in deep tapestries the hidden stones; sages of many kinds putting forth blue flowers, or red, or pale green; and marjorams and new-sprouting parsleys, and many herbs of forms and scents beyond the garden-lore of Sam. The grots and rocky walls were already starred with saxifrages and stonecrops. Primeroles and anemones were awake in the filbert-brakes; and asphodel and many lily-flowers nodded their half-opened heads in the grass: deep green grass beside the pools, where falling streams halted in cool hollows on their journey down to Anduin.
-Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Coincidence?!?! (Well, maybe...)
… and why have none seen them?
Because unlike Treebeard they’re not so hasty about revealing themselves to passing strangers, and good reason, too! But perhaps a couple of little hobbits did see Entwives (though the hobbits did not realize it). And perhaps the Entwives took active part in the Ring-quest (though some ascribed their aid to Elven magic).
Is there any possibility that they are no longer alive in Middle Earth?
Consider the words “gnarled”, “birch”, and “fir” in the following passages describing the Ents:
Nothing grew there but a few grasses and weeds at its edge, and one old stump of a tree with only two bent branches left: it looked almost like the figure of some gnarled old man, standing there, blinking in the morning-light.
-Treebeard
There were a few older Ents, bearded and gnarled like hale but ancient trees (though none looked as ancient as Treebeard); and there were tall strong Ents, clean-limbed and smooth-skinned like forest-trees in their prime; but there were no young Ents, no saplings.
-ibid
Some recalled the ash: tall straight grey Ents with many-fingered hands and long legs; some the fir (the tallest Ents), and others the birch, the rowan, and the linden.
-ibid
Now consider the same words (“gnarled”, “birch”, and “fir”) in the following passage:
The cleft was longer and deeper than it seemed. Some way down they found a few gnarled and stunted trees, the first they had seen for days: twisted birch for the most part, with here and there a fir-tree. Many were dead and gaunt, bitten to the core by the eastern winds. Once in milder days there must have been a fair thicket in the ravine, but now, after some fifty yards, the trees came to an end, though old broken stumps straggled on almost to the cliff's brink.
-The Taming of Smeagol
Finally, consider another one of the mysteries of LOTR:
"Very well," said Sam heavily. "If it must be, let's get it over!" He took up the rope and made it fast over the stump nearest to the brink; then the other end he tied about his own waist.
-ibid
"Climb up and untie it and let yourself down, if you want to!"
Sam scratched his head. "No, I can't think how, begging your pardon," he said. "But I don't like leaving it, and that's a fact." He stroked the rope's end and shook it gently. "It goes hard parting with anything I brought out of the Elf-country. Made by Galadriel herself, too, maybe. Galadriel," he murmured nodding his head mournfully. He looked up and gave one last pull to the rope as if in farewell.
To the complete surprise of both the hobbits it came loose. Sam fell over, and the long grey coils slithered silently down on top of him. Frodo laughed. "Who tied the rope? ' he said. "A good thing it held as long as it did! To think that I trusted all my weight to your knot!"
Sam did not laugh. "I may not be much good at climbing, Mr. Frodo," he said in injured tones, "but I do know something about rope and about knots. It's in the family, as you might say. Why, my grand-dad, and my uncle Andy after him, him that was the Gaffer's eldest brother he had a rope-walk over by Tighfield many a year. And I put as fast a hitch over the stump as any one could have done, in the Shire or out of it."
-ibid
Coincidence?!?! I think knot!!!!
I think we all know who untied it!
Do you believe that the departure and loss of the Entwives could be metaphoric?
Like the metaphor of the king and his crown:
Suddenly, caught by the level beams, Frodo saw the old king's head: it was lying rolled away by the roadside. "Look, Sam!" he cried, startled into speech. "Look! The king has got a crown again!"
The eyes were hollow and the carven beard was broken, but about the high stern forehead there was a coronal of silver and gold. A trailing plant with flowers like small white stars had bound itself across the brows as if in reverence for the fallen king, and in the crevices of his stony hair yellow stonecrop gleamed.
-The Journey to the Crossroads
But somebody did that garden arrangement of flowers.
MOVIE DEPICTION
Finally, what do you think of Peter Jackson’s portrayal of Fangorn Forest,…
I love how in long shots Fangorn had a well-defined edge, like how a flock of sheep stays close together. It hints that, yes, the forest is being shepherded and so begs the question who the heck are the shepherds? Very nice foreshadowing that only a visual media could do.
A nice Ents, and Treebeard?
Sure.
Did they translate well to screen?
Definitely didn’t match my own mental image of a goose-stepping Gumby, so it translated even better. But like even before the films with balrog wings, Elven ears, and the color of Legolas’ hair, there was always a question of whether Treebeard is a Man who resembles a tree, or a tree who resembles a Man. And of course all four of the previous things can still draw ferocious debate among book fans.
Do some parts work better than others?
His legs sure do. The no-knees thing always seems weird.
Would you have preferred anything to be done differently?
Perhaps de-emphasize Treebeard’s wheezing and the pauses for deep breaths. I know what they’rre going for but it doesn’t quite work for me. Starts getting irritating, and really hurts the poem in the EE, IMHO.
What would you change, if anything?
Fimbrethil, Warrior Entwife
******************************************
"Mister Frodo, hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good frying pan at your side. I’ve been from one side of this garden to the other, I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Providence controlling everything. There's no Music of the Ainur that controls my destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense."
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Oct 5 2015, 9:33pm
Post #7 of 127
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What are your first impressions of Treebeard and do they change through the reading?
My first impression was colored by Pippin's favorable reaction. If Pippin liked Treebeard then I liked Treebeard. I was really surprised when he let Saruman and Wormtongue leave Isengard.
Treebeard is one of the oldest creatures in Middle Earth, how is it that he is not aware of the presence of hobbits?
Hobbits have not been on the 'local' scene very long by Entish standards. Until Bilbo they didn't get out much after they settled in the Shire. Besides, maybe Treebeard did know at one time and then forgot. He said "they reminded me of something I cannot remember"
Where do you believe Treebeard typically gets his news?
If its not the moth, I'd guess from elves, from other Ents, from Gandalf who seems to know him well, maybe ravens, from his own observations,
Do you have a favorite Treebeard quote?
What I have is a question about one thing Treebeard says. He tells M&P there are things 'that look like Ents, but ain't, as you might say" Ain't? Why does Treebeard think M&P might say "ain't"?
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Oct 5 2015, 9:46pm
Post #8 of 127
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Where are the Entwives and why have none seen them? Is there any possibility that they are no longer alive in Middle Earth?
Yes, they may all be gone. The Entwives liked to exert control over the world and in the end became weakened and could not exist outside of that altered environment. They couldn't weather the changes. I see this as a recurring theme. Galadriel uses the ring to control Lothlorien, Sauron expends his strength by controlling his slaves, Gondor grew weak because Men spent their strength seeking immortality and so on.
Do you believe that the departure and loss of the Entwives could be metaphoric?
Both literal and metaphoric.
I believe the Elvish song Treebeard sings tells about the Entish belief in the afterlife. "Together we will take the road that leads into the West. And far away will find a land where both our hearts may rest" What do you think?
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Entwife Wandlimb
Lorien
Oct 5 2015, 10:20pm
Post #9 of 127
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Fangorn Forest, the stuffy old hoarder
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Merry and Pippin seem to harbor feelings of apprehension. Merry even comments that it is “frightfully tree-ish” and he could not imagine even animals abiding there for long. What is it about this forest which would bring such a dire warning and feeling? How does this forest differ from Lothlorien or Mirkwood?
Tolkien loved his trees and doesn't have a stock forest-set in his tale. The reader already knows that Fangorn is a place feared by men and orcs. It's hopeful that the water from the stream refreshed and cheered the hobbits, but there's still a stifling feeling. Pippin compares it to the old room in the Great Place of Tooks (which reminds me a little of Miss Havisham's home). The hobbits distinctly feel like they do not belong. The trees have "weeping, trailing, beards and whiskers of lichen," personifying them and foreshadowing Treebeard (Fangorn himself). But there's something unhealthy here, "most of the trees seem to be half covered with ragged dry leaves that have never fallen. Untidy. I can't imagine what spring would look like here, if it ever comes; still less a spring-clearing." The forest is alive but somehow stagnant, -- full of old life but lacking new. It is a forest of hoarders, unwilling to let go. Treebeard says "there are hollow dales in this land where the Darkness has never been lifted, and the trees are older than I am ."
Merry compares it to Mirkwood, "that was all dark and black, and the home of dark black things. This is just dim, and frightfully tree-ish." Mirkwood was infested with evil parasites -- Darkness, a wizard and creatures. Fangorn's darkness is more self-inflicted - the hurons themselves developed dark hearts.
Fangorn is rarely pierced by the sun but "on the land of Lorien no shadow lay." Fangorn was old and aged, but Lothlorien was frozen in time, "in Lorien the ancient things still lived on in the waking world." Frodo feels and sees the sun in Lorien, and the grass is "as green as Springtime in the Elder Days." The mallorn trees are gold, the flowers ever bloom -- "gold and white and blue and green, but they were fresh and poignant, as if he had at that moment first perceived them and made for them names new and wonderful." Fangorn says, "maybe [Lothlorien] is fading, not growing." Lothlorien, like the elves, is beautiful but on its way out. Fangorn has been growing older and older.
The forest reflects its caretakers, just as Lothlorien did. The Enwives wanted to make gardens and the Ents chose to wander and so lost the Entwives. I suppose it is a cautionary tale for marriage -- that if you prefer your solitary pursuit too much, you may get what you wish for and grow old alone and childless. The forest certainly lacks an Entwife's touch, somewhat neglected and grown wild.
Fangorn Forest, like the Ent himself, is not altogether on anybody's side. Like all of creation, it is affected by the Fall and the trees here are not welcoming men or any creature. The hobbits happened to meet one of the last of the benevolent ents, who have been weeding and caring for the trees as best they could but rather short handed.
Well, I've spent far too long on this one! Fun questions.
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Mikah
Lorien
Oct 5 2015, 11:16pm
Post #10 of 127
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I will now have that visual in my head for the rest of the evening. I remember that song from when I was a little girl! My mom was a fan of his, as well as Johnny Cash and Waylon Jennings!
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Mikah
Lorien
Oct 5 2015, 11:39pm
Post #11 of 127
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My husband found your post rather brilliant! I have asked myself this question many times. I had thought initially that it might be Celeborn's warning which gives the hobbit's pause. You know, how sometimes when you are warned of something, it brings it to pass? And then that thing which was feared, was not nearly so bad as expected. I guess, a self fulfilling prophecy. I do wonder if Merry and Pippin would have had the same feeling coming into the forest had they not been warned of it? The forest always struck me as being a more lonely place, rather than dangerous one.
Your logic makes sense though. Perhaps elves and men alike fear that which they can not control or do not understand. I do wonder though, if the Fangorn would have been as dangerous as elves and men perceived it to be, if treated with more kindness.
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Meneldor
Valinor
Oct 6 2015, 12:39am
Post #12 of 127
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We've seen that foxes are curious creatures, and I bet that once you get them talking, they just won't shut up.
 Just kidding! Maybe...
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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Mikah
Lorien
Oct 6 2015, 12:42am
Post #13 of 127
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He would be my first choice as well. Sounding board would be a good reason. Treebeard strikes me as being a bit more wise than I think he is given credit for. Certainly not the type to give hasty or foolish advice. I would think that the news would be rather important to Treebeard. If he has an idea what Saruman, Orcs, or Sauron is up to, it would be a pretty good gauge for how much danger the forest is in. At the end of the day, our dark lords effected everyone.
I think it is profound insight that you would bring up Gandalf considering Treebeard for the future...as a sort of investment. A bit of kindness now may go a long way later. You know the saying, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Perhaps Gandalf did recognize Ents as a force to be reckoned with. He saw things in them that others overlooked. Such as strength, steadfastness, and courage. Gandalf was nothing if not perceptive. I do not mean this in a callous or heartless way at all. I do not see Gandalf that way. Just simply feeling out where others stood in this very dangerous time. Who is friend and who is a potential foe.
I honestly had not thought of birds. That is definitely a point to consider. Birds as Treebeards very own form of twitter. It is strange, but Merry commented that he could not even imagine animals dwelling there for long. I wonder if this is the truth of it, or if it was just Merry's impression?
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Mikah
Lorien
Oct 6 2015, 12:45am
Post #14 of 127
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Lol. What about a squirrel? Those fuzzy little guys have been known to yammer as well! Come to think of it, bees as well. If there was ever a gossip among the insect world it has got to be a bee!
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Mikah
Lorien
Oct 6 2015, 1:12am
Post #15 of 127
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Really good questions. Any thoughts?
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Enanito, you ought to consider leading one of these chapter discussions.
How did Treebeard draw the conclusion that Saruman was not to be trusted, before anyone else did? Was Galdriel really surprised at the treachery of Saruman?
Treebeard is clearly more insightful than he would first appear. He seemed bothered that he had given information to Saruman, who gave him none in return. Perhaps, this was enough to cause Treebeard to distrust him. From there he just watched. I have heard people say that you can gather more of a personality from watching a person, than any words that come out of the mouth. They say that lips lie, the eyes do not. I can not know with any certainty that this is the case, because I do not know how long Treebeard and Saruman's acquaintance lasted. Nor how long Treebeard had been mistrusting him.
Regarding Galdriel, my gut reaction tells me that she would have had at least an inkling, what was going on with Saruman. This is not the first time she has seen someone fall from grace. Certainly not the first time that she has been deceived. I would think that the whole incident with Feanor, and the kinslaying would make her wiser to such things. Not to mention Feanor taking the ships and leaving Fingolfin's people to possibly their end. I do not think that a person comes through grief like that without being a little bit more untrusting, if not jaded.
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Mikah
Lorien
Oct 6 2015, 1:33am
Post #16 of 127
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Darkstone, me thinks you are rather brilliant...always have! I am not nearly a quick enough wit to even know where to begin to respond here! Where is Curious George and Rembrethil when you need them? Perhaps after a few (hundred) beers. What is surprising to me is how insightful you are as well. I daresay that I agree with the vast majority of what you say here. My favorite being:
Treebeard seems rather confounded by the Hobbits.
Probably because they don’t scream and take off running.
That is a most excellent point my friend. I am rather surprised at how well Merry and Pippin handled a talking tree as well. The thought crossed my mind on this reading as well. Hmm...they don't seem especially freaked out. How can this be? Another good discussion question, why on earth aren't Merry and Pippin freaked out?
I am in agreement that the Ents probably do have a bit of PTSD. I have seen it and all of the signs are there! Sleepish and lethargic. Tree-ish you might even say!
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Mikah
Lorien
Oct 6 2015, 1:37am
Post #17 of 127
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"Besides, maybe Treebeard did know at one time and then forgot. He said "they reminded me of something I cannot remember"
I can not believe I have so quickly forgotten. I always wonder what he was referring to when he said that. It never occurred to me that it could be hobbits themselves. Indeed, I will bet it could be. I could never figure out what he was talking about and now I wonder if you are correct on that.
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Mikah
Lorien
Oct 6 2015, 1:51am
Post #18 of 127
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Literal and metaphoric, without a doubt.
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However, I could not put my finger on what the tale of the Entwives was all about. When I have read the song in the past, I just took for granted that since the song was elvish, that there were elvish desires and paradigms put on the Ents. You know, a little bit of transference. I went back and read it with your perspective in mind and see that I am mistaken. Especially when I see what was written before , "We believe that we may meet again in a time to come..." I can't believe that I didn't see it. Remarkable. I do not know why I would not think that there would be an afterlife for Ents. Thank you for your response here, it is much appreciated. I believe you are right...anyone else have a thought?
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Mikah
Lorien
Oct 6 2015, 2:13am
Post #19 of 127
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The Demise of the Ent Marriage.
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I thought for awhile about your post. It is rather poetic. Beautiful really. Your perspective on why the Entwives left. I have know people in relationships like that. The response of the wanderer is always that of Treebeard's, isn't it? They do not understand what happened. The way that you put it reminds me a bit of the Mariner's Wife. You remember the story in Unfinished Tales? So this theme has been brought up by Tolkien before. I do now wonder if the forest would not have grown so unwieldy had the Entwives stayed? How would things have been different? I also wonder why the Ents chose to wander and how long ago the Entwives left. Perhaps they were much younger then and there was a great big world to explore? Seeing the way that the Ents mourn the loss of the Entwives, I daresay the cost was higher than the Ents were prepared to pay, as things so often are.
Is it possible that JRR Tolkien was thinking what you wrote here, regarding the Entwives? I think very possible indeed. The forest really are a reflection of the caretaker, just as a home is a reflection of its occupants. Absolutely wonderful insight.
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Al Carondas
Lorien
Oct 6 2015, 2:21am
Post #20 of 127
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I think Treebeard gets around more than people suspect
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I am not surprised that Treebeard knows so much, actually. He seems quite inquisitive to me. He certainly asks a lot of questions of the hobbits. And he reveals a good knowledge of the major players in Middle-earth, such as Celeborn, Galadriel, Gandalf. I think it is a mistake to believe that Treebeard has forgotten or turned his back on the outside world, even if the world seems to have forgotten him. Indeed, our first meeting with Treebeard finds him atop his accustomed lookout hill, taking in as much as he can of the lands surrounding Fangorn.
This makes perfect sense to me. As a shepherd of the trees, Treebeard would be always be actively seeking information of the outside world. That's a really huge part of his job, if he intends to protect his wood from outside threats. And I think that a network of Ents would be very effective at intelligence gathering. They are well-camouflaged, for one thing. And think of how far Treebeard can range with his long strides. He must be able to gather news from very far and wide just by walking about and talking to his fellow shepherds who must be doing the same. For instance, Treebeard tells Merry and Pippin of Skinbark, the ent that lived on the mountain slopes west of Isengard and was wounded by Orcs. Treebeard had to have learned much of Saruman from Skinbark.
But Treebeard's job is to protect his wood. And so, he can't become overly concerned with or distracted by the (to him fleeting and inconsequential) affairs of Men and Wizards, unless those affairs bear directly upon his forest. Of course, he does ultimately regret having let Saruman slide for so long. But I think this is really a product of his patience rather than his oversight.
"Good Morning!"
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enanito
Rohan
Oct 6 2015, 4:35am
Post #21 of 127
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MOVIE DEPICTION
I find myself a bit ambivalent regarding the movie depiction. I think if Peter Jackson didn't have such a cool climatic scene with the Ents destroying Isengard, he might have really cut down this whole subplot even more. Given time constraints, I can understand that this would be a part to streamline for a movie - so I'm glad we got as much as we did.
However, I am not certain why he couldn't have had the Ents decide for themselves to take up arms (limbs? branches?) against Saruman. Reminds me of George Lucas deciding to not have Han Solo shoot first -- why not just have them decide for themselves to act, instead of being provoked? I guess it works ok on screen, but it seems unnecessary since it would have been just as effective to have the decision made at the Entmoot, and taken just as much screen time. As well as portraying the Ents as taking ownership of their responsibility instead of just reacting.
TTT is a much more faithful adaptation than any of the Hobbit movies of course, but this change never made sense to me.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 6 2015, 8:25am
Post #23 of 127
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I think we can tell who The Voice has been used on
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Saruman, I think, has made the classic mistake of a Machiavellian*: he's concentrated his charm only on those he thinks are of use to him, only for as long as he thinks they are of use. This goes wrong eventually (for Saruman as it does for real-life Machiavellians I've had the misfortune to meet) because nobody can reliably foresee who will be important to them in the future.
Saruman doesn't just have the everyday charm of a common-or-garden Machiavellian: he has a magical power called The Voice. Aragorn says of it
... he had a power over the minds of others. The wise he could persuade, and the smaller folk he could daunt. That power he certainly still keeps. There are not many in Middle-earth that I should say were safe, if they were left alone to talk with him, even now when he has suffered a defeat. Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel, perhaps, now that his wickedness has been laid bare, but very few others.’
The Voice of Saruman
I think that the implication is that Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel have been thoroughly targeted by Saruman's voice before this: Saruman would certainly see them as dangerous, useful or both. . He's been using his skills to prevent them spotting his fall, and that is why they've not suspected more and sooner, I think. But once he has had what he wants from characters such as Treebeard or Radagast, he doesn't bother with them any more: a miscalculation that first allows Gandalf to escape him, and then brings the ents into the war against him.
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*By 'Machiavellian' I mean someone who is coolly manipulative of others. There's an interesting article here (http://www.bbc.com/...man-who-studies-evil about a 'tetrad of evil': a psychologist's scheme in which Machiavellianism, narcissism, psychopathy and 'everyday sadism' are 4 traits of 'dark personalities'. These are said to be distinct traits, but they can be found together. I thin there's also a fair Lamont of narcissim in Saruman - he's willing to lash out or behave selfishly to protect his inflated sense of self-worth
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Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 6 2015, 8:42am
Post #24 of 127
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I thought the movie depiction gave us too much of Treebeard as the rambling old geezer
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..which is, of course, exactly the misjudgement Saruman makes
Tolkien writes a number "slow-thinking" characters (Maggot, Bombadil, Butterbur, Treebeard, Ioreth, perhaps Radagast). They don't have snappy, clever answers like those encouraged at college. They tend to follow their own trains of thought out loud rather than stick to what the listener wants or needs to hear. But they are intelligent and wise nonetheless. Maybe it's remarkable that a university professor, probably surrounded by overtly high-IQ people and encountering many intellectual show-offs in working life, valued this kind of folk wisdom.
How much of what Treebeard says is relevant despite seeming not to be? For example the estrangement between ents & entwives because the wives become more interested in agriculture than uncontrolled nature: is this like Saruman developing a mind of metal? Are both stories of the price of wanting control?
Or, is Treebeard merely able to talk about the past, and about the present, assuming that there's plenty of time for both? He does seem very well informed (as others have already said), and has a ready grasp of how defeating Saruman would contribute to wider war goals.
~~~~~~
Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 6 2015, 8:44am
Post #25 of 127
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No, that beats me too - why do M&P strike up an immediate rapport with this 14' talking tree, rather than being terrified? //
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~~~~~~
Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
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