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DainPig
Gondor
Oct 3 2015, 11:59pm
Post #1 of 17
(902 views)
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I love english.
For some mysterious reason, the plural of man is not mans, but men!!! Who would imagine that?
The same of child. It is not childs, but children!!
This one is good: the plural of fox is foxes, ok. So, the plural of ox is oxes, ok? NOO, It is oxEN!!!
What I want to know is why exactly somo words don't end with "s". Where did come that "en"?
How aaaaaaaaaaaaaare you all???
Hey guys, my blog is: dainpigblog.blogspot.com
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Na Vedui
Rohan
Oct 4 2015, 12:31am
Post #2 of 17
(851 views)
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I think this goes back to Old English
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Modern English mostly has plurals in -s with only a few odds and ends of other sorts of plural, like the -en. But in some other languages there's a full range of different types of plural endings with lots of words in each group. Classical Latin is like that, and modern Russian, German and Welsh, for example. I think it may be an archaic feature, because Old English and medieval English has more of it, including words in -en where we now say -s. eg "housen" is now "houses"; with time, the -s plural has tended to gain ground over the other kinds.
Something similar has also happened with verbs, and the process seems to be continuing. A lot of English verbs have a past tense ending -ed, eg he loves - he loved; he opens, he opened. But there's the other sort where instead of -ed on the end, the vowel inside changes, so: he teaches, he taught; he eats, he ate; he runs, he ran. Interestingly, some of these have changed or begun to change, even during my lifetime. For example, the past tense of "thrives" always seemed to be "throve" but now I am seeing "thrived" a lot, even in academic books which are usually quite formal and conservative in their use of language.
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Maciliel
Valinor
Oct 4 2015, 12:42am
Post #3 of 17
(848 views)
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so glad to hear you love english :) --- i love it too.
english has one of the easiest rules of all the languages to make a singular noun into a plural --- as you've noted, one just adds an "s" or "es" to the end.
in most cases. as you also note, there are exceptions.
all languages are influenced by other languages. nations get conquered or invaded, trade routes carry languages to distant shores.
the plural of "child" is "children" because of the influence of one of these languages, long ago.
the older germanic languages greatly influenced english... greatly in part because of the saxon emigration to britain (this is from where the name "anglo-saxon" comes).
it is common in german to pluralize a noun by adding "en" -- "kat / katzen," etc. what you're seeing with "child / children" are the vestiges of the saxon / german language on english.
the other english words in which we can see this holdover are "brother / brethren" and "ox / oxen."
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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CamdenMcAndrews
Rivendell
Oct 4 2015, 6:12am
Post #4 of 17
(820 views)
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Survivors of a Polyglot Society
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With all the folks who've tried to move into the British isles and left their mark on the language, it's no wonder that we drive on parkways and park in driveways!
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zarabia
Tol Eressea
Oct 4 2015, 7:38am
Post #5 of 17
(810 views)
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More fun with English language idiosyncrasies
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http://www.learnenglish.de/...ciationnonsense.html
You may have come across this before, but if not, I think you'll find it informative as well as funny...or you may throw your computer across the room in frustration.  The audio clip that accompanies the text is British English, but the American pronunciation for the key words is basically the same.
You realize that life goes fast
It's hard to make the good things last
You realize the sun doesn't go down
It's just an illusion caused by the world spinning 'round
~Do You Realize?, The Flaming Lips
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Oct 4 2015, 2:15pm
Post #6 of 17
(798 views)
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I think "ain't" is in the dictionary now?
“Mans” is also a legitimate word (verb). “He “mans” the lighthouse.” (Operates)
And why is “women” pronounced “Wi-man”? (soft ‘i’ as in “in”). And “woman” pronounced “wo-man” (“woo-man”)?
Or we can “raise” a house. (Build)
Or we can “raze” a house. (Tear down)
Or we can “tear “up (cry)
Or we can “tear” it up (shred)
Or we can “tear” around (run)
Or we “tore” it up OH! STOP! 
Maybe we should all talk like Gollumses!? (But then we’re not childrenses.) 
”. . . computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons.”
- Popular Mechanics, 1949
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Oct 4 2015, 4:16pm
Post #7 of 17
(782 views)
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There's an interesting video series called The Adventure of English that gives the history of the language and explains how different languages (mostly Germanic and French) melded together to become modern English, and how English spread around the world. It's interesting and entertaining and I really enjoyed it when I watched it. It seems to be on YouTube listed as 'History of English Language'.
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
(This post was edited by Elarie on Oct 4 2015, 4:18pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Oct 4 2015, 4:17pm
Post #8 of 17
(790 views)
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"The deader the language the more alive is the ghost."
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We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.
-James Davis Nicoll
******************************************
"Mister Frodo, hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good frying pan at your side. I’ve been from one side of this garden to the other, I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Providence controlling everything. There's no Music of the Ainur that controls my destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense."
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Maciliel
Valinor
Oct 4 2015, 4:57pm
Post #9 of 17
(776 views)
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bracegirdle, you've highlighted something quite interesting, when you note that the "wo" morpheme (smallest unit of meaning) of is pronounced differently in "woman" vs. "women."
my linguist training would say that the speaker is anticipating the long "e" of the plural form. i idly wonder if it also has anything to do with the fact that it's the first syllable that's stressed. really, it's the latter morpheme (smallest unit that has meaning) that signals the chance from singular to plural ( "man" / "men"), but that morpheme is not what is being stressed, syllable-wise.
try to say "wo" (woah) + "man" (man)
now...
try to pronounce "wo" (woah) + "men" (meen) with the stress still on the first syllable ....it feels awkward to me, but i'm not sure if it's awkward because i'm just not used to it, or because my mouth really wants to pronounce certain phonemes.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 4 2015, 5:05pm
Post #10 of 17
(772 views)
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Unless it's pronounced differently in the UK (I'm American), I don't hear a long 'e' in women. And I think that we do (slightly) stress the first syllable.
woman - wuh-man
women - wih-men (wimmin, rhymes with swimmin')
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 4 2015, 5:06pm)
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Maciliel
Valinor
Oct 4 2015, 5:27pm
Post #11 of 17
(764 views)
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yes, agreed... i should have written it this way, perha ps, in the exercise i was doing...
"woah" + "man"
"woah" + "mihn"
of course, depending on where you live in the u.s. (let alone where else in the english-speaking world), pronunciation differs +greatly+.
a writing implement that uses ink., depending where you are, is pronounced......
"pehn" -- northeast, metro area, generally
"pihn" -- portions of the south
and there's the old pronunciation chestnut.... how do you pronounce the following...?
1. a girl's name... the one who had a little lamb
2. when you join someone in matrimony
3. a holiday greeting... {blank} + christmas
4. (i'm adding one here) a hobbit, the frequent co-conspirator of pippin
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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dormouse
Half-elven
Oct 4 2015, 7:11pm
Post #12 of 17
(750 views)
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But... but... aren't 3 and 4 the same?
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They are when I say them!
I've just been trying to pronounce 'women' with the first syllable of 'woman' and at first I couldn't do it at all. Now I can but it feels very strange. (Accent RP/ southern English. Or to put it another way, I don't think I have an accent but someone from another part of the country would say I do!) 
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Annael
Immortal
Oct 4 2015, 8:07pm
Post #13 of 17
(735 views)
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I remember watching The Story of English years ago. They made the point that English was a collection of different dialects from different places around the island that did not have a chance to merge before printing came into being - they gave the example that 'sword' was actually pronounced with the w in some dialect and so got spelled that way, although most people pronounced it 'sord' so now we wonder why it's got a w.
My mom grew up speaking French as well as English and never stopped complaining that English spelling makes no sense.
I am a dreamer of words, of written words. I think I am reading; a word stops me. I leave the page. The syllables of the words begin to move around … The words take on other meanings as if they had the right to be young.
-- Gaston Bachelard
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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Maciliel
Valinor
Oct 4 2015, 8:49pm
Post #14 of 17
(729 views)
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that's strange.... when i read your posts i can't tell you have an accent at all...
cheers :)
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Oct 4 2015, 10:24pm
Post #15 of 17
(713 views)
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1. a girl's name... the one who had a little lamb
2. when you join someone in matrimony
3. a holiday greeting... {blank} + christmas
4. (i'm adding one here) a hobbit, the frequent co-conspirator of pippin Whoa-man” or “Whoah- a min.”, Hmm, I pronounce them ALL exactly the same. “Carry”, “Harry”, “Dairy”, “Larry”, Fairy, (Nuff!) 
Then there’s “oil” or “earl”. And the guy on TV says, “If you ‘on’ your own home”, instead of “If you ‘own’ your own home”. (Kinda)
For something with a twist: Take just about any old saw, and give different meanings to the same (audible) words:
The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain.
Or:
The rain in Spain ‘falls’ mainly in the ‘fall’.
Or:
The ‘plane’ to Spain crosses over the ‘plain’.
Or:
To ‘reign’ in Spain it need not ‘rain’ in Spain.
”. . . computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons.”
- Popular Mechanics, 1949
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ShireHorse
Rohan
Oct 15 2015, 12:34pm
Post #17 of 17
(555 views)
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.....where streets are gates, gates are bars and bars are pubs. And it's all down to the Vikings. They invaded in the 9th C and made York/Jorvik/Bay of Chieftains their capital before conquering half of England and spreading Old Norse, their language. Like Anglo-Saxon, it still has an influence on our language today.
If you come to York, you will find that many of the street names end in 'gate', the Old Norse for 'street', which has a connection with the word 'gait', which carries the meaning of the way you walk and does not mean an entrance to something as with our modern word. Thus: Goodramgate, Castlegate, Spurriergate and Whip-ma-Whop-ma-gate (the longest name for the shortest street in the country, meaning: 'Call that a street!')
York is a walled city and obviously had a number of castellated entrances. But, these are called 'bars' (Monk Bar, Bootham Bar, Micklegate Bar) and not gates.and the word originates from the same word from which we get the expression 'to bar the way' or 'barbican', a fortified entrance. It was a point on the walls where tolls were collected.
But, of course, we still have bars or pubs in York. It all creates amusing confusion for tourists.
Don't forget to watch the new series, The Last Kingdom, based on the novels of Bernard Cornwell, about the Viking invasions and the creation of England. It started in the States last week and will start in the UK on Oct 22nd. It's bloodthirsty but sticks closer to history than most and the books are very good at showing how the Anglo-Saxons and the Vikings eventually melded as one people and they work in interesting bits and pieces about language.
And of course, our dear JRRT was a professor of Anglo-Saxon and Old Norse because he was fascinated by the origins of English and the influence can be seen both in the stories and in his choice of language - in the syntax and the vocabulary. I studied AS and ON too and I shall always remember the thrill when I first opened LotR and got to the chapters on the Riders of Rohan and heard these old languages subtly ringing in every line.
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