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lionoferebor
Rohan
Oct 2 2015, 3:21pm
Post #1 of 10
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Gimli...too young
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My understanding has always been the reason Gimli did not go on the quest for Erebor was because at the age of 62 by Dwarf standards he was considered too young. However at 32 Dain fought at the Battle of Azanulbizar. How is it that at 32 a dwarf is considered old enough to fight in battle, but at 62 too young to go on a quest?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 2 2015, 4:01pm
Post #2 of 10
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There's too young and there's too young...
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Perhaps it was a matter of Gimli (born TA 2879) being to immature and irresponsible at the time of the Quest of Erebor. Or maybe his parents was overprotective. Gimli was younger than either Fili or Kili.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Darkstone
Immortal
Oct 2 2015, 4:50pm
Post #3 of 10
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"It still sounds absurd," [Gimli] said, "even now that all has turned out more than well. I knew Thorin, of course; and I wish I had been there, but I was away at the time of your [Gandalf's]first visit to us. And I was not allowed to go on the quest: too young, they said, though at sixty-two I thought myself fit for anything."
-Unfinished Tales, The Quest of Erebor
Perhaps Dain was allowed to go because observing a military campaign would be considered part of a prince's education?
******************************************
"Mister Frodo, hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good frying pan at your side. I’ve been from one side of this garden to the other, I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Providence controlling everything. There's no Music of the Ainur that controls my destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense."
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Oct 2 2015, 4:52pm)
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Cirashala
Valinor
Oct 2 2015, 6:50pm
Post #4 of 10
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My theory, based upon a line in TH book that references dwarves taking human farmers' sons as apprentices, is that Gimli wasn't too young physically, but rather was considered too young to go because he was still in his apprenticeship.
Yes, I know that the apprenticeship reference spoke of human lads, but if the dwarves took human lads as apprentices, then it's not unreasonable to think that they practiced apprenticeship as part of the education of their own sons and daughters.
I know Tolkien never outright states that the dwarves are emulated off the Jewish people (that I know of, though there have been hints to this effect), but in Jewish culture, a man may be physically considered a man at 12 years old (Bar/Bat Mitzvah age, or coming of age ceremony, occurs at 12 for boys, and 13 for girls), but he isn't considered independent until he's completed his apprenticeship, which usually didn't happen until around age 30 (at least, in ancient days- I don't know how it works today). This is often why, in societies like this, men marry at an older age and women younger (the girls were expected to learn to keep house, so their education was done much sooner than men, and men waited to marry until their full education was done so they could support their family).
Well, to further support my theory, I found an age comparison calcuation site done by someone who referenced Tolkien's few clues as to age milestones for dwarves in order to calculate approximate human age equivalencies to dwarves:
http://axebow.lcwsites.net/...comparativeages.html
I love this site because every age for what a dwarf in the lore did makes perfect sense in human years as well (maturity speaking) and also supports my theory, if Tolkien did indeed reference some Jewish customs/attributes for dwarves in his lore.
For instance, Dain was 32 when he fought in the Battle of Azanulbizar. According to Tolkien, dwarves are considered "of age" at 40, but "battle ready" at 30. Dwalin was unusually long lived, at 340, but that puts him at 93 thereabouts- still believable. Average coming of age- 20. Average death- 70 (250 in dwarf years). Fili and Kili (in childhood) would have been 2.5 years apart, and for a nursing mother, that's around the time a child would have been weaned (and nursing affects fertility, so this would put her having Kili as she's started to wean Fili, thus increasing her fertility and allowing him to be conceived). All of it makes sense.
According to this chart, that would put "battle ready" at the age of 15 (makes sense), and Dain would have been 16 (both ages make sense, given how many 15 and 16 year old boys enlisted in the World Wars and lied about their age). This is not an adult, BUT it is old enough to be physically able to fight.
This would put Kili at 29, and Fili at 30 at the time of the quest. Now, given their royal status, I imagine that the person they would have been apprenticed to would have been Thorin. Traditionally, apprentices are bound by contractual obligation to their master (the person they apprentice to) and they live, eat, and train/learn under their master for that duration. Given this, they also travel with their master, and so this puts Fili as just finishing up his apprenticeship, and Kili still apprenticed to Thorin but close to finishing (and he would have gone with Thorin as part of the apprenticeship, but also out of loyalty).
Gimli would have been approximately 26 or so, according to this chart. And if apprenticeship ends at 30, then he would have had a while yet to go to fulfill his contract. By apprenticeship clause, if his master prohibited him from going, he couldn't have gone without breaking the contract (and I imagine that breaking a contract is majorly frowned upon in dwarf culture). So he isn't physically too young, but is "considered" too young by the elder dwarves because he was stuck in his apprenticeship and wasn't free to go (it makes sense).
At least, that's my theory  You can take it or leave it, but this is the product of extensive study into dwarves and influences Tolkien may have had when coming up with their culture for my fan fiction writing And given that line that establishes apprenticeship in TH book, it's not unreasonable to extrapolate that dwarves also practiced apprenticeship within their own culture too.
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Cirashala
Valinor
Oct 2 2015, 7:03pm
Post #5 of 10
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He's a lord, and heir to the Iron Hills, but he isn't a prince. He is of the line of Durin, and as such the Iron Hills were technically under the king of Durin's folk, which would have been Thrain at the time of Azanulbizar, and Thorin after Thrain disappeared.
Dain is heir to the throne of Erebor after Thorin, Fili and Kili, but he isn't a prince. He's Thorin's distant cousin through Dain I, which was the father of Thror. When the kingdom in the Grey mountains was attacked by a cold drake and it fell, Thror re-established the Lonely Mountain and inherited the kingship. Gror, his youngest brother, established the realm in the Iron Hills, and is Dain II's (the Dain you're talking about) grandfather.
So that would make Gror a prince, as his father Dain I was king, but I don't think Dain, being his grandson, was close enough to the throne to be entitled with the title Prince.
Same with Balin and Dwalin, and Oin and Gloin. Balin was "Lord of Moria" for a time, but not "King of Moria" because Dain was "King of Erebor and Durin's folk" after Thorin, Fili and Kili's death.
The line of Durin in terms of inheritance to the throne goes:
1. Thorin (king)
2. Fili (prince)
3. Kili (prince)
4. Dain (lord)
5. Thorin III Stonehelm (Dain's son)
6. Balin (lord)
7. Dwalin (lord)
8. Oin (lord)
9. Gloin (lord)
Balin, Dwalin, Oin and Gloin are descended from Dain I's younger brother, Borin, so are also distant cousins of Thorin, but too far removed from the throne to be considered princes. However, they are descended distantly from a king, so they would still be lords in their own right, much like Dain is until after the Battle of Five Armies.
As to Azanulbizar itself, Frerin, younger brother to Thorin, died at the age of 48, which would have put him as only about 21 or so at the time. So that battle obviously had many much younger dwarves than Gimli fighting, but given the desecration of the Elder Father of their race (Thror), pretty much every dwarf male able to wield a weapon showed up. I cannot imagine an apprentice's master not allowing him to go to THAT event!
But to reclaim a mountain with a dragon who doesn't particularly wish to be evicted with only 13 other dwarves? Um, yeah- I can see a master going "No way- not in all of Middle-earth!" to that one!
(This post was edited by Cirashala on Oct 2 2015, 7:05pm)
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Faleel
Rohan
Oct 3 2015, 2:01am
Post #6 of 10
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Because everybody was enraged about their King being slain, they were not thinking clearly.
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sparrowruth
Rivendell
Oct 4 2015, 8:53pm
Post #7 of 10
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I love it when fans come up with cohesive theories like this that fit the facts and enrich the universe. Not that Tolkien's universe needs enriching. 
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Cirashala
Valinor
Oct 5 2015, 8:18pm
Post #8 of 10
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as a fan fiction writer. Tolkien unfortunately doesn't go into super great detail when it comes to the dwarves, so when I am writing stories that involve them, I have to come up with cohesive theories that fit what few facts are available in order to make it plausible in Tolkien's world
I don't think Tolkien's world needs enriching either lol! He was a masterful genius!
However, I do think that Middle-earth is something he would have tinkered with for eternity, had he been blessed with immortality like elves 
One of the things any author, fan fiction or original fiction, must do is thoroughly research the world/time period/location they are writing about in order to best understand it and pass that understanding along to their readers.
I know fan fiction is vilified in general (heck, I am in agreement that 80% of what is out there is total garbage and gives fan fiction a bad rap  ) but there are some fan fictions that enrich Tolkien's world by allowing us (as readers) to delve more deeply into things that, given unlimited time, I bet he would have done eventually
That's what I try to do with my fan fiction- try to make everything as realistic and plausible as possible in a world that Tolkien invented, following the "rules" of said world that he laid out. In fan fiction, a good author recognizes that the "skeleton" of the story lies in the world the original author created, and when the skeleton (aka general makeup) of their portrayal of it lines up with the original author's vision, then delving into possible tangental or "what if" stories is completely possible within that realm (and THOSE well researched fan fictions can be absolutely amazing if the author has done their due diligence into researching Tolkien's world).
So theories, like the one mentioned above, are the product of countless hours of research into the books, the appendices, Tolkien's letters, maps (by Karen Fonstad), as well as movie interviews, behind the scenes stuff, the vlogs, the fan events (like the DOS sneak peek), and watching the film frame by frame during chaotic scenes and watching at least once with subtitles (you'd be surprised what a person misses without them, like Bombur's ONE line during the troll scene-yes the guy can speak! ).
Some debates, like whether Balrogs have wings or not, or what exactly Tom Bombadil IS, will always linger.
But as always, credit where credit is due- it's Tolkien's genius and thoroughness that gave us such a rich world that we are able to extrapolate these theories from, and PJ's credit when it comes to visuals and some aspects of characterization (because, with all due respect to the professor, he didn't do all that much with the company of Thorin Oakenshield in terms of character development  ), and the actors for being able to bring these characters to life in such a vibrant way (which is why frame by frame is helpful, because you realize that the actors are constantly acting even if not focused on, and are never out of character on screen).
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sparrowruth
Rivendell
Oct 7 2015, 3:36am
Post #10 of 10
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I agree.... (about fanfic writers)
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In fan fiction, a good author recognizes that the "skeleton" of the story lies in the world the original author created, and when the skeleton (aka general makeup) of their portrayal of it lines up with the original author's vision, then delving into possible tangental or "what if" stories is completely possible within that realm Exactly! I'm a Chronicles of Narnia fan as well, and some of the best authors have taken the bones of Lewis's world and filled in the black holes. One author in particular, elecktrum, has done a fantastic job of imagining the Golden Age (I'm assuming you know Narnia here). She's created a really cohesive structure for Narnian society that fits within what little is given in the books. (And i'm rambling now.)
Anyhow, I've read your fic - you might remember me as theLord'ssparrow - and I think it's amazing what you've done. I am a bit behind though, as I took a break from most of the internet over the summer.
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