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DainPig
Gondor
Sep 29 2015, 12:00am
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chromatic wizards - there are others?
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I mean, John the Yellow or Billy the Green, there are others colored wizards in midearth, any possibility??
How aaaaaaaaaaaaaare you all???
Hey guys, my blog is: dainpigblog.blogspot.com
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squire
Half-elven
Sep 29 2015, 12:47am
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Tolkien, as I see it, kind of regretted inventing the 4th and 5th wizards, the so-called "Blue Wizards." If I remember, he coined the phrase "the Five Wizards" in a frenzy of composition for the "Voice of Saruman" chapter, and spent much subsequent time trying to come up with a backstory and role for them in a tale in which they had played no previous part. Over the years, he wrote different stories for them, and different names, that reflected both 'good wizards gone bad' and 'good wizards apparently gone bad but actually doing good while in disguise' tropes that were never fleshed out.
Having tripped into an imaginative disaster with just Blue (the others were White, Grey and Brown), I imagine he shuddered in fear at the idea that there were any other wizards, of any color whatever, although - correct me, somebody - at one point I believe he suggested that the Istari order had included others, but that only the Five mentioned in Saruman's speech had been involved in the history of the north-west of Middle-earth!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Sep 29 2015, 8:19am
Post #3 of 25
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(Caption:Gandalf the Grey (Ian McKellan) and Saruman the White (Christopher Lee) spotted with the elusive Peter the Pink (Peter Jackson) believed by some to be the missing wizard. )
~~~~~~
Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
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Starling
Half-elven
Sep 29 2015, 8:49am
Post #4 of 25
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I just misread elusive as abusive. 
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 29 2015, 2:03pm
Post #6 of 25
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correct me, somebody - at one point I believe he suggested that the Istari order had included others, but that only the Five mentioned in Saruman's speech had been involved in the history of the north-west of Middle-earth!
Well I can't correct you, as I think your memory is correct.
In the essay on the Istari (that seemingly began as an index entry!) Tolkien suggests that there were more than five wizards (the number was unknown "but of those that came to the North of Middle-eath (...) the chiefs were five." The Istari, 1954, Unfinished Tales
... however, in every subsequent note or letter that I currently know of, and including (what I would call) the easy suggestion of the description published by Tolkien, it appears that there are only five wizards. Granted some of this is based on silence in the later notes, or a lack of mention of anything other than five...
... but it just seems a bit thin to me to suggest (not that anyone here has, yet) that every time Tolkien later referred to the "five" wizards, or even the "other two" wizards, then he really means: within the context stated back in the 1954 essay -- a wholly different text, and one written more than a decade earlier than at least some of the later "Istari musings"
I further contend that there are no blue wizards.
This detail, as far as I know, only appears in the same 1954 essay, and Tolkien will later (in a letter) state that he doesn't know their colours and doubts that they had distinctive colours. In letter 131 Tolkien stated (again this letter is dated later than the 1954 essay): "I have not named the colours, because I do not know them. I doubt if they had distinctive colours. Distinction was only required in the case of the three who remained in ..."
And I quoted that in blue on purpose 
And in any texts subsequent to this letter (again that I'm currently aware of), JRRT refers to these wizards as "the other two", or in any case, not with blue ("sea blue" in the ealier 1954 essay, incidentally).
_____
And you could easily be correct that JRRT's various musings to explain the other wizards illustrate that he regretted ever mentioning "five" in print, but it also seems easy enough to simply have left them a mystery. They passed into the East and didn't return, so they passed out of "these histories".
A path that seems Tolkienish to me... although you're correct, it's not as if he chose that path in certain later notes, even if it always remained a possibility.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Sep 29 2015, 2:16pm)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 29 2015, 2:21pm
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In my opinion there were only five wizards sent to Middle-earth. And in my opinion only three wizards had distinctive colours -- white, grey, brown.
The long version of my answer appears in this thread, but it's dreadfully boring.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 29 2015, 8:23pm
Post #9 of 25
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Perfect photo too!
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Sep 30 2015, 4:10pm
Post #10 of 25
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Agree with your “short version” Elthir
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In my opinion there were only five wizards sent to Middle-earth. And in my opinion only three wizards had distinctive colours -- white, grey, brown.
But we must continually retreat to the past drafts and thoughts of the Man, in an attempt of our own satisfaction. Can we not accept the words of the author published works as he states in Letters, #131:
”Hardly a word in its [LOTR] 600,000 or more has been unconsidered.” (Ok, I have ‘retreated’ into author-non-published works just to make a point), and back to the author-published-work in which it is apparent that he wishes us to know only that there were five Istari, (a White, a Grey/White, and a Brown).
. . . I suppose; and the crowns of seven kings, and the rods of the Five Wizards, . . . (bold by BG)
- The Voice of Saruman And
The two highest of this order (of whom it is said there were five) . . . (bold by BG)
-Appendix B, The Third Age
Had he wished us to know in his published work the colours, or names of these two mysterious Wizards it would seem quite simple to include this information without going into great detail other than they’ve gone into the Far East and their story doesn’t come into these tales.
So yes, Five Wizards total of which Three are fleshed-out in the author published work. And yes, it is fun to speculate (but it remains just speculation) what he would have (or if he would have) expounded further on the two Wizards in question.
”. . . computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons.”
- Popular Mechanics, 1949
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 30 2015, 5:11pm
Post #11 of 25
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I could mention Dipsy the Green, Laa-Laa the Yellow, Po the Red, and Tinky Winky the Purple, but I won't.
******************************************
"Mister Frodo, hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good frying pan at your side. I’ve been from one side of this garden to the other, I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Providence controlling everything. There's no Music of the Ainur that controls my destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense."
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Elciryamo
Rivendell
Sep 30 2015, 5:15pm
Post #12 of 25
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While the idea of other Wizards is certainly interesting, the reading I have done on it suggests only the 5, though Tolkien had obviously not made up his mind regarding the last two.
However, there is plenty of support material that they were in ME, though their arrival time is questioned, and their success or failure is often speculated at, both by readers and by Tolkien himself. Early speculation was that they failed in their mission, or otherwise were corrupted in a similar manner to Saruman.
However, I've also read that they succeeded partially by decreasing the amount of support that Sauron received from the South and the East, and those armies were smaller, allowing the Free People's a chance to win. They did not succeed in terms of overseeing Sauron's defeat and the ring's destruction but did play a part-just smaller than what was possible.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 30 2015, 8:09pm
Post #13 of 25
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I can easily accept The Lord of the Rings only as the answer to how many wizards...
... and unblueness 
But I know from experience that many notes and references usually gets raised in "Blue Wizard" threads (if not all of them), especially the posthumously published "Istari" of 1954 from UT, which references more than five wizards, and the colour blue.
And especially with respect to colour, a lot of folks seem to accept blue since it doesn't conflict with the silence of The Lord of the Rings, so there's where the later letter, also posthumously published, comes in.
Or something. I don't know... I'm still musing about Celeborn
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Elciryamo
Rivendell
Sep 30 2015, 11:45pm
Post #15 of 25
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Two replies because I fight with quotes
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@Ethil
I had not realized that UT left the actual number of Istari to question, and that the Five discussed in LOTR were consider "chiefs."
However, I did reread Tolkien's letters on the subject, and Five Wizards was consistent across his various ideas and drafts. He reports the colour was unknown to him (at the time) as the two did not factor in to the tale. Later on, annotations indicate both their names and possible time frame as to their arrival. Interesting clues, to me.
@Bracegirdle
I knew I met him at some point!
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Cirashala
Valinor
Oct 1 2015, 12:52am
Post #16 of 25
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My Idahoan silver pennies are very much secure, thank you 
You see, "tree huggers" (using the overhyped stereotype, not trying to offend) are typically unwelcome in a land of hunters
We don't see as many who choose to "live in the trees as one with nature" who don't have a rifle in their hands aiming at deer (or moose, or elk, etc). Though there IS one crazy lady that came into my husband's sporting goods store once who wanted to shoot a peregrin falcon because it was trying to eat the Welsh Corgi puppies that she "couldn't possibly leave inside when she went to work because it would psychologically damage the poor things" (I am not joking- even his manager thought she was clearly nuts, as it's illegal to shoot endangered birds of prey but she could care less if it saved her precious puppies from therapy bills- and this coming from his boss, who is an avid hunter himself).
But if you head on across the border to Washington state, there are real life flets aplenty  And many a tricksy elfses to confuddle unsuspecting travelers 
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Maciliel
Valinor
Oct 1 2015, 2:11am
Post #17 of 25
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what re meaning of the colors?
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elthir, have you come across any meanings of the colors? some associations present themselves as obvious... but "brown" -- perhaps because radagast seemed most directly tied to the earth and nature?
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Oct 1 2015, 3:05am
Post #18 of 25
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Oh, not meant as a jab at Idaho
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My Idahoan silver pennies are very much secure, thank you
I be an Idahoan (Boise) myself.
But sadly, no flets in the desert hereabouts, even though Boise is a French word meaning “wooded” (which Boise IS, but east, west, and south -- miles & miles of desert).
But yes, were Celeborn inclined to settle hereabouts I would picture it in the north, or as you say the heavily forested eastern WA.
”. . . computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons.”
- Popular Mechanics, 1949
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Oct 1 2015, 3:33am
Post #19 of 25
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I’ve always assumed “white” stood for purity.
When Saruman proclaimed himself “Saruman of Many Colours” he had lost his way.
“Brown” can be associated as you say with earthiness.
Gandalf was called “Mithrandir” by the Elves. “Mith” grey (consider The Grey Havens – “Mithlond” or the Ered Mithrin - "Grey Mountains"), and “randir” – pilgrim or wanderer (Sindarin).
I’m sure there are others on this site who will give an origin of the name “Gandalf”.
I suppose the name “Mithrandir” just stuck after he became The White?
”. . . computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons.”
- Popular Mechanics, 1949
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Maciliel
Valinor
Oct 1 2015, 3:41am
Post #20 of 25
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well, they weren't calling him nimrandir after he came back from moria, 'tho that would have been fitting.
yes.. white for purity... re the grey... grey is a thematic color for tolkien... it crops up often. i get the sense that it may signify beauty, quiet strength, even a humble holiness. it certainly is a favorite color for the elves, and one can think of it as their signature color.
cheers ---
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Oct 1 2015, 4:15am
Post #21 of 25
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Yeah, Nimrandir just DOESN'T SING does it! Although proper Sindarin I 'spose.
"Grey" is good. "Gray" is not so good . . .
And "Good night Mrs. Calabash wherever you are."
”. . . computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons.”
- Popular Mechanics, 1949
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Oct 1 2015, 11:23am
Post #22 of 25
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I’m sure there are others on this site who will give an origin of the name “Gandalf”.
Not that you said it did, but the name Gandalf has no colour elements in it. No one really said the name Gandalf in Frodo's time, as it's a modern translation of some unknown name -- which likely means something close to "Elf with a magic staff" (Staff-elf), since that's what Tolkien thought O. N. "Gand-alf" meant.
As Old Norse the suggestion is that the "real" name is in a Northern tongue but not specifically Westron.
Tolkien however, merely refers to Gandalf as a Westron name in Unfinished Tales, though one not made up of Elvish elements (Westron could be influenced by the Elvish tongues). Some have theorized that the pronunciation Gandalf (not Gandalv) indicates a Westronization of an original name in, say, the language of Dale.
Externally: for The Hobbit Tolkien had simply chosen a selection of Dwarf-names from an Old Norse text, including one for the wizard (although at first Gandalf was not the wizard's name in the tale). But that was rather just a way to provide a bunch of names for his children's tale, and later JRRT had to explain it as a translation, as nobody back then could possibly have had names in Old Norse, a language that in Bilbo's day hadn't arisen in history yet.
The origin is thus, in the theory of the conceit, modern: that is, someone who knew Old Norse used it to translate a name that meant something similar.
Tolkien knew enough Old Norse... my guess is he did this!
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Oct 1 2015, 12:01pm
Post #23 of 25
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I don't recall JRRT explaining the colours specifically in detail, as to meaning. Gandalf arguably hints as some measure of meaning when he comments about white versus "many colours" in the book, and there's a letter in which Tolkien says that after Gandalf was sent back from death and delivered to Galadriel he was "ready to receive the white robes of the highest" letter 156
In his reaction to artwork (a picture of the Fellowship) by Pauline Baynes, Tolkien noted of Gandalf's grey: "It was of an elven silver-grey hue, though tarnished by wear -- as is evident from the general use of grey in the book (...) but his colours were always white, silver-grey, and blue... except for the boots he wore when walking in the wild (...) the Bladorthin typescript J, Rateliff, The History of The Hobbit
Maybe Odin inspired?
We have a connection with Radagast the Brown to Rhosgobel meaning "russet town", but I'm not sure that necessarily explains things. In the Istari essay Radagast is actually described as cald in "earthen brown" so a connection to earthy-ness seems suggested (sea blue for the other two -- although again in my opinion the later letter supersedes this).
The 1954 essay describes: "...and last came one who seemed the least, less tall than the others, and in looks more aged, grey-haired and grey-clad, and leaning on a staff."
So one might associate this with humility, even adding to his aged look, though if it's an elven silver grey and not yet tarnished, other connections could be made of course.
Plus any other citations that I can't remember right now -- I'll include "those" too as they might be important.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Oct 1 2015, 12:04pm)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Oct 1 2015, 12:10pm
Post #24 of 25
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(although at first Gandalf was not the wizard's name in the tale).
I should add that in drafts for The Hobbit Gandalf's name was Bladorthin... a name which JD Rateliff at least, suggests might contain an Elvish element or word meaning grey (he compares it to Thingol "Greycloak").
I can't recall at the moment if any of the Elvish experts from the Editorial Team (publishers of Vinyar Tengwar, or Parma Eldalamberon) have commented on this name.
And for clarity, when I say Tolkien refers to Gandalf as a Weston name in UT, I mean he refers to it as a translation of a Westron name.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Oct 1 2015, 12:15pm)
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Bumblingidiot
Rohan
Oct 8 2015, 1:39am
Post #25 of 25
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I've a feeling the Warner Brothers are Middle Earth wizards.
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I mean, John the Yellow or Billy the Green, there are others colored wizards in midearth, any possibility?? There was “Chubbo” the wealthy "Pink Wizard" who spent his time falsely documenting the end of the Third Age. 
- just look at the evidence; like Gandalf, they're always meddling in the affairs of others, they have a colour - claim to be always in the red (due to their magical accounting practices), they spend their time, like Saruman, pretending to be helping, while secretly plotting to mate dwarves with elven ladies, and plunge the world into darkness as everyone sits in cinemas watching low quality spin-offs featuring small, bearded pointy-eared folks.
Fortunately, they're not in the books.
"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."
(This post was edited by Bumblingidiot on Oct 8 2015, 1:42am)
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Peter the Pink? :)
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