|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 27 2015, 2:34pm
Post #26 of 51
(726 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Noting, for instance, that anything attested in...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
... Etymologies -- usually represented by "ety/ [page number)" -- is really Noldorin not Sindarin (long story).
Very generally speaking again, Etymologies was written with a notably different "linguistic history" in mind (not sure if that's the correct term), which means the historical relationships of the languages changed dramatically before The Lord of the Rings was published, as well as some of the actual "details" of Noldorin...
... when it became (externally speaking) "Sindarin" 
I'm not saying anything here is necessarily "wrong" Otaku-sempai (especially after you went out of your way to find a resource and post these examples) but it's just part of the iceberg that is the Neo-elvish question.
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 27 2015, 2:48pm
Post #27 of 51
(721 views)
Shortcut
|
Well, the site I linked to is specifically for Sindarin. That said, here is a different one for English-to-Quenya: http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/...uenya-dictionary.htm.
Quenya
callo - hero
quenta, nyarna, nyárë - story or tale
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 27 2015, 2:49pm)
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 27 2015, 2:50pm
Post #28 of 51
(720 views)
Shortcut
|
I have at least one source that identifies narn as Quenya, so it may be both.
Hmm, but that brings up the matter of... what source
Generally speaking, Quenya words appear to end with a fairly limited number of consonant clusters. In any case, I don't have Mr. Cumberbatches memory (as he plays Sherlock Holmes) to be able to recall any and all references to the word narn...
... in Tolkien-written sources. Not all web sources are necessarily reliable, but not that you said so anyway.
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 27 2015, 2:55pm
Post #29 of 51
(717 views)
Shortcut
|
... but it employs sources that attest Noldorin words, and calls them "Sindarin". IIRC, it sometimes even "updates" certain words, as Noldorin did not remain exactly the same when Tolkien changed the larger historical scenario.
Again it's the difference between Neo-elvish and Elvish. Neo-elvish is briefly referred to or described in the FAQ I linked to in this thread, and looked at in more detail in the essay "Elvish as She Is Spoke" (linked from the FAQ).
(This post was edited by Elthir on Sep 27 2015, 2:59pm)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 27 2015, 2:56pm
Post #30 of 51
(716 views)
Shortcut
|
It was a glossary in the Middle-earth Campaign Guide (for MERP) that identified narn as Quenya. I now believe this to be erroneous, but we can see from other sources that it does have Quenya roots.
Many of the 'Elvish dictionaries' even go back to Tolkien's earliest form of Elvish (Gnomish?) to derive their lexicons.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 27 2015, 2:59pm)
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 27 2015, 3:20pm
Post #31 of 51
(709 views)
Shortcut
|
Not that you don't know, but all the Elvish languages are ultimately related to one another. Quenya and Sindarin, Telerin, and even the Avarin tongues for example, all spring from a very ancient language common to all Elves.
For example, from a theoretical base LAS- we find both Quenya and Sindarin words for "leaf", words which developed (or not) in a branch of the Elvish tongues as the Quendi split off from one another in their wanderings and journeys -- one branch leading to Quenya or Exilic Quenya, another branch leading to "modern" Sindarin or types of Sindarin.
That said, by "Quenya roots" you might mean that the word in Sindarin was specifically borrowed from a Quenya word, which is possible, but if the word narn ultimately hails from the same theoretical root/base as other Quenya words for "story", then we could say that much about a lot of Quenya and Sindarin words.
Sorry to sound so pedantic, but this might further illustrate why the changing of the historical relationships of the languages -- Etymologies being an old, abandoned document, not revised to reflect the new linguistic (historical) scenario as landed on for The Lord of the Rings, is arguably a fairly notable thing...
... even if certain linguists use this older document to gather up as many words as they can, and even older documents (from an external perspective), as you noted in your last post.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Sep 27 2015, 3:27pm)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 27 2015, 3:28pm
Post #32 of 51
(703 views)
Shortcut
|
That said, by "Quenya roots" you might mean that the word in Sindarin was specifically borrowed from a Quenya word, which is possible, but if the word narn ultimately hails from the same theoretical root/base as other Quenya words for "story", then we could say that about a lot of Quenya and Sindarin words.
Well, what I meant in the case of narn (as you can probably guess) is that it likely to have been derived from the Quenya nyarna. I see this a lot in Sindarin words.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
squire
Half-elven
Sep 27 2015, 3:44pm
Post #33 of 51
(703 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Forever to entwine us - ha! Don't sit too near that willow, lovebirds.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Thanks for pointing out that some of the inscriptions do not use the language of the Ring Spell. I didn't realize that.
One site I found, that offers "One Ring" designs for sale, makes an important distinction between its offerings of licensed replicas of the Ring as seen in the New Line films, and its extensive line of other styles. For those, they will happily engrave anything you ask, but - they warn - "We CANNOT for legal reasons engrave the same elvish script that features on our licensed The One Ring designs."
This suggests to me that couples have indeed asked for the original spell to be engraved on their wedding band style rings.
My original response didn't just include rings. I remember there being a post on TORn a number of years ago that showed an entire rather expensive carved suite of dining room furniture, with the Ring Spell worked artfully into the backs of all the chairs. That's where I first began to realize that the genie was out of the bottle (to mix fantasy metaphors).
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
 = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 27 2015, 3:46pm
Post #34 of 51
(700 views)
Shortcut
|
In Etymologies we have the base NAR2- 'tell relate" (NAR1- being fire related), and from this descends both Noldorin narn and Quenya nyáre for example, bothing hail from the same theoretical base.
So at least without further historical information here, in my opinion the word narn can have developed naturally in the branch of Elvish that led to the Noldorin language.
And if we imagine the new historical construct (and keep these words and base from Etymologies for the sake of this example), do we have a Sindarin word derived from a specific Quenya word?
Or a word that naturally formed in the Sindarin branch of Elvish, again, with various Elvish words ultimately hailing from a theortical base NAR1-?
(This post was edited by Elthir on Sep 27 2015, 3:54pm)
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 27 2015, 4:03pm
Post #36 of 51
(697 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I used to want to write in Quenya or Sindarin...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
... but the more I tried, checking the sources against the websites and pondering the external scenario, the more Carl's words rang true for me. I'm not against Neo-elvish, but I do think the Elvish lawn needs this rain...
... not that you said otherwise... and if I may sorta steal your metaphor 
(This post was edited by Elthir on Sep 27 2015, 4:04pm)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 27 2015, 4:05pm
Post #37 of 51
(692 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Tolkien the Etymologist vs. Tolkien the Storyteller
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I'm trying not to be overly 'meta' and to stick to how the Elvish languages developed within the legendarium of Middle-earth, as opposed to how they evolved in Professor Tolkien's mind (although that is a perfectly fine topic of discussion in and of itself!). Even then we can apparently distinguish the Quenya spoken by the Vanyar and Noldor on the mainland of Aman from the dialect used by the Teleri on Tol Eressëa.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 27 2015, 4:07pm
Post #38 of 51
(691 views)
Shortcut
|
theortical base NAR1-?
Erm, I meant 2 there.
Drat.
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 27 2015, 4:24pm
Post #39 of 51
(688 views)
Shortcut
|
Okay but what is the evidence for narn being derived from this or any Quenya word in the internal history?
I mean, words deriving from the same base might have similar forms or sound similar. Estel is both Quenya and Sindarin for instance, but is this due to natural history, the word finding this form in both branches (that lead to each language), as opposed to, say, the Sindar specifically adopting estel from the Quenya language, for instance (or deriving some similat Sindarin word, in theory, based on a Quenya form).
Again, Tolkien might have noted some specific history with narn that I don't recall at the moment. It's easily possible... but if he didn't... then I would have to use that word again: necessarily (after not) derived from Quenya.
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 27 2015, 4:33pm
Post #40 of 51
(686 views)
Shortcut
|
The internal similarities between the Sindarin word narn and Quenya nyarna could be written off as coincidence but it seems more likely that they both at least derive from a common root through the original language of the Elves of Cuivienen. This is what I should have stated previously.
I'm going to try to refrain from futher comments and see if anyone has any more suggestions for the OP.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
CamdenMcAndrews
Rivendell
Sep 27 2015, 4:33pm
Post #41 of 51
(687 views)
Shortcut
|
Failing all else, if it's important to you, you might contact David Salo and ask a real linguist about translating English into Elvish. There's a contact form on his Midgardsmal blog.
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 27 2015, 4:40pm
Post #42 of 51
(682 views)
Shortcut
|
The internal similarities between the Sindarin word narn and Quenya nyarna could be written off as coincidence but it seems more likely that they both at least derive from a common root through the original language of the Elves of Cuivienen. This is what I should have stated previously.
Ah, then we were just not understanding one another properly I guess, as a common base is what I have been trying to raise here.
Well, sorry for not being clear on my part. Gave me something to ramble about anyway
(This post was edited by Elthir on Sep 27 2015, 4:53pm)
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 28 2015, 2:03pm
Post #43 of 51
(651 views)
Shortcut
|
|
an unreal linguist (as in, not a real linguist) takes a shot
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I'll take a shot at the Neo-Sindarin. Words or phrases in bold are attested by Tolkien (or in a couple cases, I think they might be), attested from various sources written at various times however.
We have Narn e·Dinúviel "Tale of the Nightingale" -- thus a genitival article e(n) paired with a noun or name beginning with t (Tinúviel of course), which alters to d here.
For pronouns we have im "I" and genitive nín '"my", the latter often being seen in the Neo-sindarin *mellon nín "my friend". We also have (Unfinished Tales) ered e·mbar nín! "The mountains of my home"
With that last example I'm guessing we have the genitival artticle "of" combined with a noun and a following nín! "of-home my".
According to Ardalambion, one of the main sites currently presenting Neo-Sindarin on the web, e-mbar for "of the house" illustrates the same kind of mutation as in (see below) en-drenarn "of the tale", that is, the "mixed mutation".
So it seems one could write: "of-story my" in this way.
Ardalambion (again currently) states (I underlined the word "probably" howevever, in the following): "Before the initial cluster tr-, we would probably see the full form of the genitival article (en), and the cluster tr itself would mutate to dr, e.g. trenarn "tale" > en-drenarn "of the tale".
The section on lenition also states that initial th- is not affected by the soft mutation, so thalion will seemingly not alter in initial sound when we add the singular article, i "the" before it: "the hero".
So we might have:
*Im i thalion en-drenarn nín
What about the verb to be? I'm not sure it's necessary: Ryszard Derdzinski's summary of Sindarin verbs (his site links to Ardalambion) notes that Sindarin seldom uses the verb to be, although the exception may be the imperative form: no "be!".
True? I dunno. I would have to study Tolkien's writings a lot more, and take some classes on langwich. But...
... in the films Mr. Salo had Arwen say: *Rochon ellint im" seemingly to mean "I am the swifter rider".
Rochon is obviously enough "rider" based on roch "horse" and Rohirrim "Horse lords" (the latter presents a variation with respect to -ch- versus -h-, note also Elrohir for instance).
And ellint is described on Ryszard's site as an adjective, constructed from an plus lint "swift" (I'm assuming both are attested if not the word "ellint" necessarily).
And then we have Tolkien's im "I" at the end. In other words, I don't see "am" in the Sindarin here.
The example from the film appears to be: "Rider swifter I"
__________
Anyway, is my suggestion above correct? I think so at the moment anyway. But probably not
Maybe I forgot something, or misunderstood something. I'm no expert as I say, and certainly am not a trained linguist. My "Sindarin" is based on English, even though I'm trying to use attested Sindarin grammar where it concerns other Tolkien made phrases.
It also includes a "probably", even from someone people would probably refer to as an expert.
And if Tolkien were writing this, I think he would probably write something different.
And this is, I would guess, how many people are learning "Sindarin" these days, or at least how many are often enough getting their Elvish tattoos: by taking the word of one person, or even one expert (among others who could be called experts too) even if that word includes a "probably" somewhere, for instance.
All without checking the actual sources or even being able to see the true external scenario behind the examples, including any possible examples that seem to conflict with some idea or conclusion.
Well, yes I get that. Many folks don't want to learn a new language, especially an "art language" that's only partially attested, and includes the artist changing his mind over the years, and who never wrote or published a "final", detailed description of the language, its grammar, including important stuff like Elvish idiom for example.
Tolkien himself can be seen to write multiple versions of the same sentence, arguably some written in the same day! This all arguably makes things even harder than learning Latin, for instance.
I get that fans who love Tolkien just want the tattoo.
So yes, probably best to consult an expert if it's important. And in my opinion even bester to know about, at least in a general way, what even the experts are actually dealing with "behind the scenes". And that even among the experts there is a measure of disagreement and confusion.
Then perhaps the idea that folks can learn Sindarin as if it were German or Spanish, or even as if it were "Klingonese" (or whatever it's actually called), might begin to dissipate...
... or whatever the correct English word should be (dissipate?).
I'm no expert in English either
(This post was edited by Elthir on Sep 28 2015, 2:17pm)
|
|
|
Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Sep 28 2015, 2:48pm
Post #44 of 51
(633 views)
Shortcut
|
Clearly you are an expert in English. After all, you have created a great new word: bester - better than best!
If I ever decide to get a neo-English tattoo, I will be sure to consult with you first!
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 28 2015, 3:12pm
Post #45 of 51
(625 views)
Shortcut
|
Bestest!
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 28 2015, 3:38pm
Post #46 of 51
(625 views)
Shortcut
|
Neo-english! I love it.
And the term is now entered into my Neo-english dictionary
|
|
|
Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Sep 28 2015, 5:05pm
Post #47 of 51
(628 views)
Shortcut
|
I'm in complete agreement with you about neo-Elvish. I have no problem with people trying to use it, but I wish that people were clearer about what it was that they were doing, and they are not speaking or writing in an "Elvish language" created by Tolkien. I think that Carl does a good job in explaining why that is true (though he has taken a log of flack for it over the years). On the other hand, while it is true that Tolkien said that "this process of invention was/is a private enterprise undertaken to give pleasure to myself by giving expression to my personal linguistic 'aesthetic' or taste and its fluctuations" it is also true that Tolkien himself brought this private enterprise to public attention through the publication of The Lord of the Rings, and that Christopher Tolkien and others (very much including Carl himself through his work in publishing Tolkien's linguistic writings) have greatly increased that public attention, and it is natural that people would want to partake in that particular form of pleasure (though it is never been my particular interest).
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 28 2015, 5:53pm
Post #48 of 51
(613 views)
Shortcut
|
... and Carl Hostetter has himself delved into a measure of Neo-elvish too. I think he translated a prayer before Tolkien's version of the same prayer was known to him -- if I recall correctly, illustrating CFH's point about how even the experts could not accurately predict Tolkien's version of something (at least something of some length and complication)...
... in part perhaps, as Tolkien is free to invent stuff as the creator of his languages, although his new creations still have to fit well enough into the larger scenario.
Anyway, my other reason for responding is to add that Rochon Methestel "Rider of the Last Hope" is attested (yet not published by JRRT himself that I know of -- which as you might know is a matter that gets my brother's toast nicely browning). It's attested in Cirion and Eorl, Unfinished Tales.
So, since I made such an obvious error (at least one, so far) in my post about translating this tattoo (not noting Rochon as being attested by JRRT himself)... how can my Neo-sindarin suggestion now be trusted?
Thus, I undermine me
(This post was edited by Elthir on Sep 28 2015, 6:06pm)
|
|
|
CamdenMcAndrews
Rivendell
Sep 28 2015, 8:31pm
Post #49 of 51
(588 views)
Shortcut
|
|
One of the Grandest Tolkien Traditions
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Neo-english! I love it. And the term is now entered into my Neo-english dictionary
Don't forget "bebother" and "confusticate." This is a grand Tolkien tradition!
|
|
|
|
|
