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The Two Towers read through: Ch. Two: The Riders of Rohan, part 2

Brethil
Half-elven


Sep 25 2015, 1:28am

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The Two Towers read through: Ch. Two: The Riders of Rohan, part 2 Can't Post

Greetings all!
For Part Two of this week's chapter, I thought we could touch on some thematic elements.



'The tree is glad of the fire!' and the glimpse we get is of cold cracked hands taking comfort ( a very descriptive image) And odd thing perhaps for a tree, isn't it - enjoying fire? Or is it just anthropomorphizing as a device? How does this anthropomorphizing strike you - inconsistent, or maybe a hint of the more feral (cannibalistic, almost) nature or Huorns as later described by Treebeard?


And the Forest itself, 'great brooding presence, full of secret purpose': it seems to even stymie Legolas - who is used here it seems as the narrative proxy, because he prompts the explanation from Aragorn about Fangorn though he uses his own lack of travel as a rationale. Believable, and a deeper sign of differences between the Woodland Elf and the Imladris-fostered Man? Or merely a clear vehicle for ramping up the mystery of Fangorn?



The loss of the horses: in addition to the obvious stranding at their loss it also means they have broken faith with Eomer, to whom they promised in faith the return of the horses, adding to the catastrophe and shutting off a return to Rohan for help I believe. Yet I also have always thought this was a wee bit of authorial cheat: later we get the information that the horses sounded glad, as of those meeting their leader. But not here! I know its a setup for a later happy outcome (yes, the eu- word!) but it always seems a bit deceptive to me! What was your take on this?




There are many lines about Saruman and his treachery - some political hints as to the enormity the political landscape via Aragorn - here in this chapter. And then we get that tantalizing glimpse of the Old Man in white, and some more deception...how well done was the illusion for you, that this was Saruman? Is is a surprise that JRRT chose Gimli to see the figure as the other two (perhaps both woth greater knowledge?) slept? Did the hint from Aragorn the hunter who noted the hat versus a hood hold any measure, or was the seed planted in your mind as a reader as to who this was?






Lastly, I am intrigued in this chapter on how JRRT does a sort of 'compare and contrast' sketch in leadership between Aragorn and Eomer. Both are uncrowned, both exiles to differing degrees - is the dynamic already in place for their later relationship? Or is this just the meeting of two noble souls, interacting to illuminate them both?









(This post was edited by Brethil on Sep 25 2015, 1:28am)


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Sep 25 2015, 7:29am

Post #2 of 19 (2602 views)
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Anthropomorphic [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
"...The first men to talk of 'trees and stars' saw things very differently. To them, the world was alive with mythological beings... To them the whole of creation was "myth-woven and elf-patterned".

Quoted by Humphrey Carpenter (1979). The Inklings: C. S. Lewis, J. R. R. Tolkien, Charles Williams and Their Friends. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. p. 43.

There's no question that every element in Middle Earth was anthropomorphic: not only animals, but trees, and even rocks. Eregion had "forgotten" the Elves, according to Legolas. There are numerous references to "living stone." So, we see a tree "glad of fire" (which, I confess, sounds more like it should be a natural enemy), and even the Forest broods. The horses were clearly delighted to meet Shadowfax again, and ran off to play.

But what of the "Old Man"? Is it perhaps a bit crude for Tolkien to plant the misleading suggestion in Éomer to make us think this is Saruman? Thank goodness the greatest woodsman in the world is at hand to notice little things like hats vs. hoods.








noWizardme
Half-elven


Sep 25 2015, 10:08am

Post #3 of 19 (2589 views)
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Pathetic fallacy or pathetically panicking tree? [In reply to] Can't Post

By this point in LOTR we've already had out heroes bushwacked by a willow and menaced by a mountain. So I guess I'm not as likely as I would be in another work to assume the idea of the tree "enjoying the fire" is poetic (the oddly named effect of 'pathetic fallacy').

It does seem odd that a tree might enjoy a fire, especially one made of dismembered and discarded bits of other trees. So I do wonder whether it is completely freaking out but our two-legged threesome haven't read the signals (the problems of inter-cultural communication again)?

~~~~~~

Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064


noWizardme
Half-elven


Sep 25 2015, 10:33am

Post #4 of 19 (2591 views)
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Was the old man originally Gandalf? Thinking about Tolkien's writing decisions here [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a vague memory from reading "History of Middle Earth" (which is Christopher Tolkien's compilation and analysis of JRR's draft writings) that JRR had different ideas about when to time Gandalf's reappearance. If I remember rightly, Christopher Tolkien thinks this mysterious figure might first have been Gandalf, before JRR decided that it would be Saruman making a brief appearance.

I'm not entirely sure I see the point of having the brief appearance of the old man here, whichever wizard he is. Unless I've missed something, the incident seems only to help remind us that Eomer thinks Saruman is out & about, which sets up our assumptions when an old man is met again in White Rider. But (if I remember correctly) the PJ film misses out this mysterious old man incident without losing that effect.

Maybe Tolkien chose a middle way between his other options (he could have our 3 heroes meet Gandalf now. Or he could cut to the hobbits just when it appears that the 3 hunters are about to fight Saruman - an enhanced cliffhanger ending.

Not sure - what do you think?

~~~~~~

Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Sep 25 2015, 7:44pm

Post #5 of 19 (2562 views)
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Who was that "old man"? [In reply to] Can't Post

In fact, Tolkien seems to have waffled on this quite a lot. In The Treason of Isengard (HoME VII) p. 403 CT gives this text after Gimli's brief sighting of the old man, "clad in rags":

Quote
There was no trace of him to be found near at hand; and they did not dare to wander far -- the moon was hidden in cloud, and the night was very dark. [Struck out: The Horses remained quiet and seemed to feel nothing amiss.] ? The horses were restive, straining at their tether-ropes, showing the whites of their eyes. It was a little while before Legolas could quiet them.

For some time the companions discussed this strange event. "It was Saruman, of that I feel certain," said Gimli. "You remember the words of Éomer. He will come back, or bring more trouble on us."


CT subsequently notes, "While this is no more than a guess, I suspect that when my father wrote this he thought that it was Gandalf, and not Saruman, who stood so briefly in the light of the fire." Quiet horses = Gandalf, disturbed horses = Saruman.

Later (HoME p. 428), when the real Gandalf appears:

Quote
in the first draft Gimli asks, "That old man. You say Saruman is abroad. Was it you or Saruman that we saw last night?" and Gandalf replies, "If you saw an old man last night, you certainly did not see me. ... I must guess that you saw Saruman [or a vision] or some wraith of his making. [Struck out: I did not know that he lingered here so long.] Against Gandalf's words my father wrote in the margin: Vision of Gandalf's thought.


In the discussion, CT muses, "it seems more likely perhaps that through his deep concentration on Saruman [Gandalf] had "projected" an image of Saruman which the three companions could momentarily see."

Hammond & Scull (The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion) quote an earlier time-scheme which includes the entry,

Quote
Aragorn and his companions spend night on the battle-field, and see "old man" (Saruman). They are a considerable way from Orthanc and the reader might wonder with Gimli whether it was really Saruman or only "an evil phantom" of him, especially as he leaves no traces. But Gandalf later explains that it was Saruman: "He was so eager to lay his hands on his prey [the Hobbits and possibly the Ring] that he could not wait at home, and he came forth to meet and to spy on his messengers. But he came too late for once, and the battle was over and beyond his help before he reached these parts. He did not remain here long."


To add further ambiguity, in a footnote to the first section I quoted above, CT notes, "It is curious that Aragorn's words, 'I marked also that this old man had a hat not a hood' were an addition to the text made long after."

The horses are now gone, and do not testify.








noWizardme
Half-elven


Sep 25 2015, 8:15pm

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Thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

That was what I'd remembered, plus many interesting details!

~~~~~~

Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064


Brethil
Half-elven


Sep 26 2015, 2:15pm

Post #7 of 19 (2492 views)
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The use of the anthropomorphic [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote
"...The first men to talk of 'trees and stars' saw things very differently. To them, the world was alive with mythological beings... To them the whole of creation was "myth-woven and elf-patterned".

Quoted by Humphrey Carpenter (1979). The Inklings: C. S. Lewis, J. R. R. Tolkien, Charles Williams and Their Friends. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. p. 43.

There's no question that every element in Middle Earth was anthropomorphic: not only animals, but trees, and even rocks. Eregion had "forgotten" the Elves, according to Legolas. There are numerous references to "living stone." So, we see a tree "glad of fire" (which, I confess, sounds more like it should be a natural enemy), and even the Forest broods. The horses were clearly delighted to meet Shadowfax again, and ran off to play.

But what of the "Old Man"? Is it perhaps a bit crude for Tolkien to plant the misleading suggestion in omer to make us think this is Saruman? Thank goodness the greatest woodsman in the world is at hand to notice little things like hats vs. hoods.





as an expression of the old world view of the world - excellent point and reference there. Sociologically I think we have plenty of real-world evidence for this, and many artifacts in Northern cultures utilize animals as totems or expressions of theme. So that use in the legendarium maybe gives us that historical feel (that also makes it seem so real, just around the next bend, or through the tissue paper)?


I agree on the hints and another bit of cheat here - the suggestion from Eomer sets up the riddle! And I was and remain impressed that during such a moment of half-asleep adrenalin rush Aragorn notes exactly the details of the Old Man, where I think Legolas did not. Figuratively, the trained Hunter's sight exceeds the natural Elf eyes here.


Aragorn would make a great witness.









Brethil
Half-elven


Sep 26 2015, 2:18pm

Post #8 of 19 (2491 views)
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Yes, and this bit I still don't entirely 'get' [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

It does seem odd that a tree might enjoy a fire, especially one made of dismembered and discarded bits of other trees. So I do wonder whether it is completely freaking out but our two-legged threesome haven't read the signals (the problems of inter-cultural communication again)?


but I feel sure he's making some sort of point here. Is he showing us the 'humanity' of trees? That they have feelings and senses (which I am sure was a personal belief)? Or is it that enjoying the burning of cannibalized bits providing warmth indicates a bit of the amorality of the wild world (which is why it reminded me of the Huorns)?









Brethil
Half-elven


Sep 26 2015, 2:22pm

Post #9 of 19 (2491 views)
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Is the Old Man the mechanics for the loss of the horses? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I have a vague memory from reading "History of Middle Earth" (which is Christopher Tolkien's compilation and analysis of JRR's draft writings) that JRR had different ideas about when to time Gandalf's reappearance. If I remember rightly, Christopher Tolkien thinks this mysterious figure might first have been Gandalf, before JRR decided that it would be Saruman making a brief appearance.

I'm not entirely sure I see the point of having the brief appearance of the old man here, whichever wizard he is. Unless I've missed something, the incident seems only to help remind us that Eomer thinks Saruman is out & about, which sets up our assumptions when an old man is met again in White Rider. But (if I remember correctly) the PJ film misses out this mysterious old man incident without losing that effect.

Maybe Tolkien chose a middle way between his other options (he could have our 3 heroes meet Gandalf now. Or he could cut to the hobbits just when it appears that the 3 hunters are about to fight Saruman - an enhanced cliffhanger ending.

Not sure - what do you think?





It works as a tension ramper - that's for certain as a literary tool. But is the plot point of them being on foot, as well as unintentionally breaking faith with Eomer - all before facing brooding Fangorn - too important to leave to chance, and thus an event needs to occur (barring coincidence or randomness) that has 'significance' to cover that running of the steeds?









Brethil
Half-elven


Sep 26 2015, 2:30pm

Post #10 of 19 (2491 views)
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Fabulous analysis and citations Elizabeth [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In fact, Tolkien seems to have waffled on this quite a lot. In The Treason of Isengard (HoME VII) p. 403 CT gives this text after Gimli's brief sighting of the old man, "clad in rags":

Quote
There was no trace of him to be found near at hand; and they did not dare to wander far -- the moon was hidden in cloud, and the night was very dark. [Struck out: The Horses remained quiet and seemed to feel nothing amiss.] ? The horses were restive, straining at their tether-ropes, showing the whites of their eyes. It was a little while before Legolas could quiet them.

For some time the companions discussed this strange event. "It was Saruman, of that I feel certain," said Gimli. "You remember the words of omer. He will come back, or bring more trouble on us."


CT subsequently notes, "While this is no more than a guess, I suspect that when my father wrote this he thought that it was Gandalf, and not Saruman, who stood so briefly in the light of the fire." Quiet horses = Gandalf, disturbed horses = Saruman.

Later (HoME p. 428), when the real Gandalf appears:

Quote
in the first draft Gimli asks, "That old man. You say Saruman is abroad. Was it you or Saruman that we saw last night?" and Gandalf replies, "If you saw an old man last night, you certainly did not see me. ... I must guess that you saw Saruman [or a vision] or some wraith of his making. [Struck out: I did not know that he lingered here so long.] Against Gandalf's words my father wrote in the margin: Vision of Gandalf's thought.


In the discussion, CT muses, "it seems more likely perhaps that through his deep concentration on Saruman [Gandalf] had "projected" an image of Saruman which the three companions could momentarily see."

Hammond & Scull (The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion) quote an earlier time-scheme which includes the entry,

Quote
Aragorn and his companions spend night on the battle-field, and see "old man" (Saruman). They are a considerable way from Orthanc and the reader might wonder with Gimli whether it was really Saruman or only "an evil phantom" of him, especially as he leaves no traces. But Gandalf later explains that it was Saruman: "He was so eager to lay his hands on his prey [the Hobbits and possibly the Ring] that he could not wait at home, and he came forth to meet and to spy on his messengers. But he came too late for once, and the battle was over and beyond his help before he reached these parts. He did not remain here long."


To add further ambiguity, in a footnote to the first section I quoted above, CT notes, "It is curious that Aragorn's words, 'I marked also that this old man had a hat not a hood' were an addition to the text made long after."

The horses are now gone, and do not testify.






I find two things intriguing about JRRT's thoughts on the matter:


1. that the 'hat not hood' was the latest addition to the text
2. Quiet horses = Gandalf, disturbed horses = Saruman. I quite agree with the basics of the equation; but what do HAPPY and restive horses mean (which, chaet code, we don't get right away)??? Its rather like he split the difference here! Tricksy!


Point 1 makes me think on the matter quite a lot. Is it revision, the thought settling in with the author after an inner debate, or another layer of mystery added?


That 'projection' idea is very compelling I must say. I must think on that more, and maybe glance through letters for any info.




(And just to cut to Film for a second, it all reminds me of the sound/visual mashup of Gandalf and Saruman that we hear before Gandalf steps forward before the Three Hunters in Fangorn!)









oliphaunt
Lorien


Sep 26 2015, 3:06pm

Post #11 of 19 (2482 views)
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Saruman?Gandalf?Saruman? [In reply to] Can't Post

" it all reminds me of the sound/visual mashup of Gandalf and Saruman that we hear before Gandalf steps forward before the Three Hunters in Fangorn!"

-- Me too, I thought it captured the ambiguity brilliantly!

What about Saruman projecting a little Gandalf on himself? But not totally succeeding, his powers have been off lately. i can come up with reasons why that might be useful.


shadowdog
Rohan

Sep 26 2015, 3:41pm

Post #12 of 19 (2474 views)
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When I read this chapter for the first time [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought it was Saruman. I never thought it could possibly be Gandalf. Also I thought the horses fled out of fear of the trees. We already knew trees were alive and aware of those around them from the incident with Bombadil in the Old Forest.


Al Carondas
Lorien

Sep 26 2015, 4:11pm

Post #13 of 19 (2474 views)
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Cannibalistic trees, oh my! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

'The tree is glad of the fire!' and the glimpse we get is of cold cracked hands taking comfort ( a very descriptive image) And odd thing perhaps for a tree, isn't it - enjoying fire? Or is it just anthropomorphizing as a device? How does this anthropomorphizing strike you - inconsistent, or maybe a hint of the more feral (cannibalistic, almost) nature or Huorns as later described by Treebeard?


Cannibalistic? *shudder* I had never thought of that. Although, now that you mention it, I have always felt that this particular tree was vaguely threatening. That is an intriguing idea - that this tree might be one of those that is rotten inside. Could be.

But one, I think important, point that Tolkien is careful to make (through Aragorn) is that the wood collected for the fire is already dead and lying about. He warns several times to cut no living wood. So, maybe Trees don't object to the burning of dead wood so much. Maybe it is more akin to burning hair that has been shed than to burning limbs that have been hacked off? If hair actually made for good fuel, I don't think humans would feel squeamish about seeing it burned.

I think Tolkien's main intent is just to show that these trees are more alive than with your ordinary forest. But I do find it a bit inconsistent that a tree would not be more fearful of fire as a rule. Maybe he trusts the hunters? And maybe especially the elf?

"Good Morning!"


Al Carondas
Lorien

Sep 26 2015, 4:42pm

Post #14 of 19 (2466 views)
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The phantom guest is an unintended remnant of an idea, perhaps? [In reply to] Can't Post

As for the forest, I do think Tolkien is simply introducing us to the mysterious wood here and building up the tension and mystery for the upcoming chapters.

But the incident with the old man has always thrown me. Thank you, Elizabeth, and noWizardme for the excerpts from The Treason of Isengard. Very cool reading. That nevertheless leaves me more perplexed than ever. It seems like Tolkien was trying to tell us that it wasn't Saruman, because of the hat. And then it seems that he is also trying to tell us that it wasn't Gandalf, because Gandalf later says so. I can't imagine who else it could be.

But most perplexing of all to me is that I don't see any point at all for the incident. Does it advance the plot? The disappearance of the horses is ultimately attributed to the presence of Shadowfax, or, at least, it could be. So, what is the point of a brief vision of Saruman, here? I don't see it.

So. It still throws me. I guess I must chalk it up as an unsolved mystery which lends more mystery to the story.

"Good Morning!"


Al Carondas
Lorien

Sep 26 2015, 5:16pm

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Authorial cheat [In reply to] Can't Post


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Yet I also have always thought this was a wee bit of authorial cheat: later we get the information that the horses sounded glad, as of those meeting their leader. But not here! I know its a setup for a later happy outcome (yes, the eu- word!) but it always seems a bit deceptive to me! What was your take on this?


Good point, Brethil! Yeah, that does seem sneaky of the Prof., doesnt' it? But honestly I am starting to think that the inconsistency here is really an unintentional product of Tolkien's indecision during the writing of these chapters. Still, as it stands, I think it is not so inconsistent, really. Consider:

The horses bolt in the middle of the night, in the presence of a brooding wood, at the same moment that a strange vision of (apparently) Saruman appears. I think it would be quite natural for both Legolas and Aragorn to momentarily overlook the joy that they thought they had heard in the horses' voices. Maybe each of them is thinking: "Hmm? That's strange. I would have sworn the horses actually sounded happy when they ran away." But, of course, if they were happy, why would the horses run away? Doesn't make sense. So maybe Legolas and Aragorn decide that they were mistaken, or that there must be something else to the riddle that they cannot see. For the moment, the great weight of the evidence certainly seems to favor the horses having been scared off, and so the lesser contradictory evidence is ignored - at least for the moment. I think that this would be most people's natural reaction to the situation. I've certainly accepted similar seemingly illogical conclusions only to later smack my forehead and say "Oh! I should have known!"

"Good Morning!"


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Sep 26 2015, 7:22pm

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A "mashup of Gandalf and Saruman" [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, the very ambiguity that Jackson created electronically seems to have been Tolkien's specific intent here. Jackson captured it perfectly.








Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 29 2015, 5:53pm

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Naughty tree [In reply to] Can't Post

Greetings all!
For Part Two of this week's chapter, I thought we could touch on some thematic elements.


Greetings, Brethil! My prayers are with you and yours.


'The tree is glad of the fire!' and the glimpse we get is of cold cracked hands taking comfort ( a very descriptive image) And odd thing perhaps for a tree, isn't it - enjoying fire?

Actually its *really* enjoying the fire (nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more) in that its responding to an environmental trigger (in this case fire) to release seeds. Note the trees back in the Shire werent quite as demonstrative when the hobbits did the same in Three is Company (Leaving the road they went into the deep resin-scented darkness of the trees, and gathered dead sticks and cones to make a fire.), but that may have been because the serotiny trigger of the cones was pyrohydriscence (fire followed by rain) rather than just pyriscence.


Or is it just anthropomorphizing as a device?

This is Fangorn, where anthros are subject to arboromorphizing.


How does this anthropomorphizing strike you - inconsistent, or maybe a hint of the more feral (cannibalistic, almost) nature or Huorns as later described by Treebeard?

Youre only a cannibal if you eat members of your own species which Huorns do not.


And the Forest itself, 'great brooding presence, full of secret purpose':

Sounds almost seductive rather than menacing, though often the two are one.


.. it seems to even stymie Legolas

Thats not hard.


who is used here it seems as the narrative proxy, because he prompts the explanation from Aragorn about Fangorn though he uses his own lack of travel as a rationale. Believable, and a deeper sign of differences between the Woodland Elf and the Imladris-fostered Man?

I kinda miss the authoritative narrator of The Hobbit. I wonder if the Hourns ate him?


Or merely a clear vehicle for ramping up the mystery of Fangorn?

That and the theremin music.


The loss of the horses: in addition to the obvious stranding at their loss it also means they have broken faith with Eomer, to whom they promised in faith the return of the horses, adding to the catastrophe and shutting off a return to Rohan for help I believe.

The hunters three have lost their steeds,
And don't know where to find them.
Leave them alone, and they'll go home,
Swishing their tails behind them.


(Horses are like that, especially when they know a bucket of oats waits at the end.)


Yet I also have always thought this was a wee bit of authorial cheat: later we get the information that the horses sounded glad, as of those meeting their leader.

So most probably a nicker, or maybe a whinny or neigh, but probably not a blow, grunt, or groan, nor a sigh or sniff, but definitely not a snort or squeal, and a stallions roar is right out. Add in various ear and tail movement and positioning and horses are positively chatty!


But not here! I know its a setup for a later happy outcome (yes, the eu- word!) but it always seems a bit deceptive to me!

Equus ex machina.


What was your take on this?

Well, as a Signal Officer 2nd Lieutenant Tolkien oversaw a veritable menagerie of pigeons, dogs, and horses, so hed know. For example, Tolkien has been describing the past day or two as being windy, and for various reasons horses tend to bolt during high winds, and when they do they tend to bolt into the wind, and since wind carries sounds it accounts for how Aragorn and Legolas could still hear the horses after theyd run a good distance away.

Obviously Tolkien had thought this scenario out very carefully.


There are many lines about Saruman and his treachery

In summary, Saruman is a weinie.


some political hints as to the enormity the political landscape via Aragorn - here in this chapter.

Its both bigger than a breadbox *and* a streetcar!


And then we get that tantalizing glimpse of the Old Man in white, and some more deception...how well done was the illusion for you, that this was Saruman?

Who else could it have been? Gandalf was dead and its not like Tolkien would be like, oh, for example, Voltaire, Dickens, or Arthur Conan Doyle and bring a character back to life after they had been disemboweled, hanged, thrown from a coach, or fallen off a cliff, would he?


Is iy a surprise that JRRT chose Gimli to see the figure as the other two (perhaps both woth greater knowledge?) slept?

Well, Gimli, being a mail-clad Dwarf, made noise when he jumped up and so woke the others. Doubtless if the Ranger or Elf had been on watch theyd have risen silently and thus those still sleeping would not have woken and so would have had to be roused using another sentence or two. So it seems more a deliberate economy of narrative. More evidence of Tolkien as a master of storytelling.


Did the hint from Aragorn the hunter who noted the hat versus a hood hold any measure, or was the seed planted in your mind as a reader as to who this was?

Not a clue. Nowadays I do wonder if Tolkien was being balrog wing meta on us, like maybe sometimes it was Gandalf and sometimes it was Saruman, and sometimes it was both. Or maybe the ambiguity was a deliberate reflection of how Saruman was still wavering on the cusp between Good and Evil, or Gandalf was still in transformation between Grey and White, or both, or neither.


Lastly, I am intrigued in this chapter on how JRRT does a sort of 'compare and contrast' sketch in leadership between Aragorn and Eomer. Both are uncrowned, both exiles to differing degrees - is the dynamic already in place for their later relationship?

Theyre just good friends.


Or is this just the meeting of two noble souls, interacting to illuminate them both?

Like Hector and Ajax while weinie Achilles sulks in his tent?

******************************************

"Mister Frodo, hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good frying pan at your side. Ive been from one side of this garden to the other, I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Providence controlling everything. There's no Music of the Ainur that controls my destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense."


noWizardme
Half-elven


Oct 2 2015, 8:57am

Post #18 of 19 (2260 views)
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Many Thanks to Brethil for leading us across the plains of Rohan [In reply to] Can't Post

Fine to post more to this thread, if more to say there is - our threads are rarely locked off.

But further chapters are up (or are coming up) as follows. Please note folks that there are some slots for chapter leaders that you can fill if what has happened already has inspired you into leading for a week!:

week starts # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
13-Sep-15 # I # The Departure of Boromir # MirielCelebel http://goo.gl/zpn7Rg
20-Sep-15 # II # The Riders of Rohan # Brethil http://goo.gl/yKNv7E and http://goo.gl/mxesBG
27-Sep-15 # III # The Uruk-hai # cats16 http://goo.gl/LUWJi1
04-Oct-15 # IV # Treebeard # Mikah
11-Oct-15 # V # The White Rider # Entwife Wandlimb
18-Oct-15 # VI # The King of the Golden Hall # squire
25-Oct-15 # VII # Helm's Deep # arithmancer
01-Nov-15 # VIII # The Road to Isengard - no leader yet #
08-Nov-15 # IX # Flotsam and Jetsam - no leader yet#
15-Nov-15 # X # The Voice of Saruman # jochenkeen
22-Nov-15 # XI # The Palantir - no leader yet#

~~~~~~

Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064


MirielCelebel
Rivendell


Oct 17 2015, 5:13pm

Post #19 of 19 (2112 views)
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I know I'm late! [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been busy and skipped out on the chapters discussions. I know, bad me. Anyway, I love this chapter, always have. Eomer is one of absolute favorite characters and you're right, he is a bit of an Aragorn character. I think both have very good and honorable intentions and have been shunned for one reason or another by the people they've tried to help. I think this chapter is an illumination of their potential, and not just individually, but together. I think at this point in the story we can see that Eomer will be a great ally and if Aragorn establishes himself as king of Gondor, and Eomer becomes king of Rohan, they could do much good for Middle-earth.

"The Road goes ever on..."

Writing Bliss

 
 

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