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heartshine
Registered User
Sep 10 2015, 7:50pm
Post #1 of 39
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Could the lost 10 minutes of the EE be a result of a future box set negotiation?
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I know there's been touched upon this subject in another thread, but I really like to ponder the possibility that Peter Jackson cut some scenes from the extended edition to be able to do a future definitive box set with all 6 movies.
It would make sense that the studio would agree to such a release, if there would be some significant unseen scenes / footage to market it with.
In one of the behind the scenes documentaries of the LOTR Extended Editions Peter Jackson stated that all motion capture information was being stored, so that he could update the special effects at some point in the future, when technology had further evolved.
It wouldn't surprise me that in a couple of years a new, definite Middle-Earth set will be released with some extra scenes and updated visuals. Maybe with some added or alternate storylines, like with Beorn in BOTFA. I don't know how much deleted scenes of the LOTR trilogy there exist, but I bet there are a couple of them.
For example; It would really satisfy me to see an updated Gollum in FOTR that looks like the TT version... (and maybe updated to the new visual effects standards of that moment in time.)
There are more things that could use some fixing and it would make the whole trilogy complete. I am not afraid he will go completely George Lucas on us, I trust in some worthy alterations.
I think this plan has always been in the back of Peter's mind, and maybe the missing 10 minutes of the BOTFA EE are an offering to the studio, to get his way with an extended and updated Middle-Earth box set. A final cut that co-exist besides the TE's and EE's.
Those extra scenes that are now left on the cutting floor would be a valuable marketing tool for such a future definite box set.
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Sep 10 2015, 8:08pm
Post #2 of 39
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yes to all, I have said it a tone of times
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The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer
Hobbit Cinema Marathon Hero
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dormouse
Half-elven
Sep 10 2015, 8:41pm
Post #3 of 39
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Honestly? I think this idea of a 'missing 10 minutes...
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..is a huge red herring. Peter Jackson only said that the EE would be 'about 30 minutes longer'. He was estimating - guessing. That was long before he started working on the EE.
So when it came to it he didn't find that much footage he wanted to use, or that much that was useable. I don't think there's any mystery about it at all. Once it came to choosing what he actually wanted to add if came to 20 minutes (ish) and not 30.
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MechaGodzilla
Rivendell
Sep 10 2015, 8:50pm
Post #4 of 39
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If I recall correctly, he estimated AUJ would have around 30 minutes of additional footage as well, didn't he? That was also off by a significant margin. Then there's DOS, where he was right on the money with his 25 minute estimation. If there was any truth to this conspiracy theory (which I think is pretty ridiculous), why didn't he withhold any of that "promised" footage from the second film?
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Sep 10 2015, 8:51pm
Post #5 of 39
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Did we go through this with AUJ, i.e. "Missing 17 minutes"?
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I can't quite remember.
I wish PJ would have waited on giving an estimated time until later (like last year). Fewer conspiracy theories that way.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Sep 10 2015, 8:54pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 10 2015, 8:57pm
Post #6 of 39
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"I think it will probably be about 30 minutes"
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Is the actual quote, though one would have though it was, "it will be 30 minutes".
Imagine in the conspiracy theories of anyone reading Tolkien's estimates of how many chapters LOTR would turn out to be!
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Sep 10 2015, 9:15pm
Post #7 of 39
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I think most of us probably assumed the shorter EE time for AUJ
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was a result of footage being held over into DoS - which it was in the case of the High Fells - due to the 2 to 3 film split.
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Sep 10 2015, 9:29pm
Post #8 of 39
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I don't remember there being a big deal made out of it. People were disappointed of course, but I feel people accepted it fairly easily. But that's probably for a few reasons.
1. Compared to BotFA, there wasn't that much of an extensive list of things we knew were cut out. All we were really expecting (not including wishful thinking) was more Rivendell, the market scene, and the Old Took's party (and the High Fells before we learned they moved it to DoS).
2. AUJ was already pretty long, and some people even said that the theatrical cut already kind of felt like an extended cut. BotFA is the shortest of all six movies, and quite a few people feel that it's missing some key plot points and character moments that should have been there from the start rather than added later as a bonus. A couple years ago, did any of us expect that wanting more than 15 seconds of Beorn in the final battle would be considered greedy?
3. There's more to "fix" in BotFA. Of course not everyone feels this way, but I didn't get the impression that people felt there was a lot to "fix" in AUJ, at least nothing a few extra scenes couldn't help with. With the addition of Legolas, Tauriel, Alfrid, and other subplots, I think DoS and BotFA had a sudden shift in focus that a lot of fans have hoped would be changed with the extended cuts. DoS managed to pull it off where it could, but I think people are just worried that BotFA won't be able to accomplish something similar with only 20 minutes. Could it? Of course. But without a clip (HINT HINT WARNER BROS) and only a few brief battle shots from that trailer, it's easy to worry about what's going to make the cut.
4. This is the last PJ Middle-earth movie. I think a lot of people wanted to go out with a bang like the massive RotK EE. Expecting 50 minutes for BotFA is completely unrealistic. But until we actually get to see the footage, 20 minutes feels like an underwhelming number for the final and already short final Middle-earth movie. Quality is more important than quantity, but PJ has spoiled us before by giving us both.
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balbo biggins
Rohan
Sep 10 2015, 9:33pm
Post #9 of 39
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dont adventures never end.....
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Arannir
Valinor
Sep 10 2015, 9:53pm
Post #10 of 39
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Neither the ultimate edition nor the 30 minutes are more than potential things PJ mentioned at some point.
Especially the ultimate edition is something some people talk about as it is already much more than these mentions. Fact is, we have no clue what it would be... More extended or added scenes, just deleted scenes on an extra disc or even just more behind the scenes stuff... Or just all six extended editions (and TEs ) in one huge pack. All of these could be possible ways to do them, none of them is, however, a certainty or wishful thinking at this point.
Neither the 30 minutes nor the ultimate box set have ever had any sort of confirmation. End of story.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Sep 10 2015, 9:55pm)
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Bumblingidiot
Rohan
Sep 11 2015, 12:35am
Post #13 of 39
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Agree with others, there never was a 30 minute extra cut.
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PJ will have assembled what he thinks works best as an EE, which just happens to come out as twenty minutes longer in total. There are two main reasons for not including a scene; the film works better without it, or the scene will cost too much to complete (like the rest of the balrog fight in LOTR). PJ has too much integrity to deliberately produce a lesser film for the EE.
I do like the idea of PJ, perhaps at a quieter future point in his career, sitting down and producing a different edit of the films. He might end up changing the emphasis of some aspects, improving the special effects, or even completing and inserting scenes that were filmed but left in a green screen state.
If that happens, I don't expect to see it anytime soon, though.
"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."
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xxxyyy
Rohan
Sep 11 2015, 12:37am
Post #14 of 39
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Sep 11 2015, 12:54am
Post #15 of 39
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I bet PJ has a private fan-edit that WB will never let him release //
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Avandel
Half-elven
Sep 11 2015, 12:55am
Post #16 of 39
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If that happens, I don't expect to see it anytime soon, though.
I'm not going to go dig it up again - there's an article link in another thread - but *sigh* point-blank in the article PJ comments on being a guy who wants to do other things, and alludes to not wanting to spend time, forever tweaking the Hobbit I guess, and I suppose he would include LOTR as well.
Then there was the DOS fan event where a fan was asking for as-yet unused LOTR footage, and PJ saying something about the quality being bad - not the acting and so on, but the footage itself, literally - the fan said "we didn't mind" but PJ seemed noncommittal to me - I suppose in that moment weighing what fans might hope to see, vs. releasing something (I guess) that maybe is all yellow-toned or scratchy or whatever PJ meant by poor quality.
Although, aren't there companies that specialize in rescuing bad film? - don't know the technology.
Just doesn't sound to me - more recently, anyway - that PJ doesn't seem to want a break, at least for a bit, from ME.
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squiggle
Rivendell
Sep 11 2015, 2:21am
Post #17 of 39
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That is still part of the current production and the whole scene that the trilogy was made in.
An additional future cut/update etc middle earth set would be something else again. For super fans it would be great, like the blade runner deluxe sets or the ext ext Lynch Dune film that it's fans love, but it shouldn't be confused with being a definitive edition or the 'true' version.
The theatricals are the definitive theatricals, the ees are the definitive ees, etc.
The Director(s) might have preferences, but so might the fans of any given editions, & as Star Wars has shown, it can eclipse the movies when it becomes an out of proportion shooting match. 
(This post was edited by squiggle on Sep 11 2015, 2:24am)
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adt100
Rohan
Sep 11 2015, 8:10am
Post #18 of 39
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THERE ARE NO LOST 10 MINUTES!!!
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Sorry for shouting, but really, people need to stop the conspiracy theories on things like this. It's like when PJ announced early on last year that there would be a trailer around 'x' date and it didn't come til a few weeks later. All of a sudden people accused him of lying or that there must be some serious problems.... maybe there wasn't even going to be a trailer!
He said he hoped/thought he'd add about 30 minutes. In the end he's only added about 20 minutes, although, from all the talk and wording of things we have heard, I think there may be more than 20 minutes new footage, but as with DOS EE it will replace some footage in the TC.
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adt100
Rohan
Sep 11 2015, 8:19am
Post #19 of 39
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And the answer will still be... Han shot first!
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as Star Wars has shown, it can eclipse the movies when it becomes an out of proportion shooting match.
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Goldeneye
Lorien
Sep 11 2015, 12:15pm
Post #20 of 39
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Now that's something I would pay to see lol
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lionoferebor
Rohan
Sep 11 2015, 12:48pm
Post #21 of 39
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So when it came to it he didn't find that much footage he wanted to use, or that much that was useable. I don't think there's any mystery about it at all. Once it came to choosing what he actually wanted to add if came to 20 minutes (ish) and not 30.
I also think - in addition to the twenty minutes of additional footage - there may be ten minutes (possibly more) of footage that has been re-edited.
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moreorless
Gondor
Sep 11 2015, 2:28pm
Post #22 of 39
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Do these "fixes" need alot of time though?
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I don't remember there being a big deal made out of it. People were disappointed of course, but I feel people accepted it fairly easily. But that's probably for a few reasons.
1. Compared to BotFA, there wasn't that much of an extensive list of things we knew were cut out. All we were really expecting (not including wishful thinking) was more Rivendell, the market scene, and the Old Took's party (and the High Fells before we learned they moved it to DoS).
2. AUJ was already pretty long, and some people even said that the theatrical cut already kind of felt like an extended cut. BotFA is the shortest of all six movies, and quite a few people feel that it's missing some key plot points and character moments that should have been there from the start rather than added later as a bonus. A couple years ago, did any of us expect that wanting more than 15 seconds of Beorn in the final battle would be considered greedy?
3. There's more to "fix" in BotFA. Of course not everyone feels this way, but I didn't get the impression that people felt there was a lot to "fix" in AUJ, at least nothing a few extra scenes couldn't help with. With the addition of Legolas, Tauriel, Alfrid, and other subplots, I think DoS and BotFA had a sudden shift in focus that a lot of fans have hoped would be changed with the extended cuts. DoS managed to pull it off where it could, but I think people are just worried that BotFA won't be able to accomplish something similar with only 20 minutes. Could it? Of course. But without a clip (HINT HINT WARNER BROS) and only a few brief battle shots from that trailer, it's easy to worry about what's going to make the cut.
4. This is the last PJ Middle-earth movie. I think a lot of people wanted to go out with a bang like the massive RotK EE. Expecting 50 minutes for BotFA is completely unrealistic. But until we actually get to see the footage, 20 minutes feels like an underwhelming number for the final and already short final Middle-earth movie. Quality is more important than quantity, but PJ has spoiled us before by giving us both.
I would agree with a lot of what you post BUT what I would say is that whilst Bot5A might have more "fixes" that people want to see I'm not sure it needs a lot of time to achieve them.
The issues most people bring up tend to involve very specific dramatic scenes and such scenes I would argue are not very time hungry. Does it take THAT long to show more of Bard/Smaug? of Radagast meatign Beorn? of the Chariot and Beorn in the battle? even the Funeral?
What would could potentially be more disappointed about I'd say is if they wanted a lot more of the minor dwarves as multiple character scenes do tend a good deal longer.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Sep 11 2015, 4:05pm
Post #23 of 39
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Depends tho IMO on the defintion of "lost"
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He said he hoped/thought he'd add about 30 minutes. In the end he's only added about 20 minutes, although, from all the talk and wording of things we have heard, I think there may be more than 20 minutes new footage, but as with DOS EE it will replace some footage in the TC.
Well, yes. But I think folks are rightfully uneasy - although the uneasiness could be the result, ironically, of PJ's past generousness in SHARING . Because we see things, and once seen, many of us WANT. Or we hear of things, and can't fathom why it wasn't incorporated.
Like that .gif floating around from a blog that shows Thorin, and particularly Fili and Kili, fighting together. Or the *famous* unfinished, wonderful dwarf/Thranduil scene.
So for me, when I hear of a director ratcheting down his estimations from 40 to 30 to 20 minutes, and I know that director has ditched footage as in his estimation it wasn't needed, and there are all these tantalizing glimpses - for me it's not a "conspiracy" but a wariness of what PJ is up to - after all, the AUJ EE ended up being pretty short, and PJ re interviews doesn't strike me as a director re BOFA who wanted to make BOFA - at least time wise, as LAVISH as he possibly could + being a director who has said he wants to do other things, "simpler things".....
Conversely, tho, I remember being freaked out after the first DOS trailer re my beloved dwarves (the lack thereof) and IMO that turned out well. On the other hand, will some of the FOCUS of the TE BOFA be re-directed with the EE - or will the anticipation ultimately be curdled in a vat of dank, dark, despair , for some of the audience?
How does our journey end? LOL  
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dormouse
Half-elven
Sep 11 2015, 4:33pm
Post #24 of 39
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But you're making a conspiracy theory here all of your very own....
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Pick something PJ said. then something he might have said about something else entirely. Then some odd bit of footage you've seen floating round the internet... Add 'em all together and it's "Oh no, he's going to cheat us out of all these lovely things we've imagined. They're all in our lost 10 minutes. We want our 10 Minutes!!!!"
Now, deep breath.... There is no lost 10 minutes... There never was a lost 10 minutes...
Let's take it piece by piece. I haven't seen the floating gif so can't comment on it, but the dwarf/Thranduil scene they filmed for DOS. How do you KNOW it was wonderful? If it had been wonderful, don't you think he would have included it? Because he wants his film to be wonderful. It was just an idea they tried that didn't really work, and as they've seen it and we haven't, that's all we can really say about it.
The AUJ EE ended up being short because they'd used the footage in the TE - remember that was the film affected most by the three-film split because it came so close on the release date.
PJ re interviews doesn't strike me as a director re BOFA who wanted to make BOFA I've no idea where you get this, when the man said several times that he was enjoying it, that he thought it would be the best. I never once heard him say he didn't want to make the film, or imply that he didn't. He talked about giving it the pace of a thriller - about it being different because there was no journey - but I think it's a huge stretch to use that to accuse him of not wanting to make it.
being a director who has said he wants to do other things, "simpler things"..... Sorry, Avandel, but I think using that against him really is unfair. That comment had nothing to do with the Battle of the Five Armies or the number of scenes he put in involving dwarves, or the running time of the film. Time and again they've told us and we've seen how much of a marathon filming three parts of a story back-to-back is, and what a huge toll it takes, physically and emotionally, on the people involved. And this was a marathon he wasn't expecting to run himself, and one that involved sorting out a whole catalogue of problems. He comes to the end of that, he's exhausted, and he says he thinks that the next thing he and Fran would like to move on to would be something more local - New Zealand projects. Why not - that's where he belongs, it doesn't involve scooting round the world (or dealing with Hollywood). For goodness sake, if you were in his position, isn't that what you would want?
Now, deep breath.... There is no lost 10 minutes... There never was a lost 10 minutes... There is no conspiracy.... Peter Jackson is not trying to cheat you out of your dwarves.... Peter Jackson GAVE you your dwarves!
How does your journey end? Well, if you're sensible, by revelling in all the things you love about these films!
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LSF
Gondor
Sep 11 2015, 5:13pm
Post #25 of 39
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I guess I don't get why such conspiracy theories and judgments like this are being made BEFORE we've even seen the BOFA EE. For all we know, "only 20 minutes" could be enough to accomadate all the major complaints and missing scenes. There's nothing wrong with speculation, but let's wait until we see it to make judgments on if it's too short, or whatever.
Yeah, PJ did say that BOFA was his favorite to film and direct, so I don't get where the "he didn't care" stuff is coming from.
One thing I greatly appreciate about PJ and Co is that in the behind the scenes, they explain many decisions they make. They showed some of the Dwarves meeting Thranduil scene, and then PJ explained why he thought it didn't work. Now yeah, you don't have to necessarily agree with the decision or the reason behind it, but he doesn't keep his reasons for decisions a mystery. They explain why they changed this, added that, took that out of the story for LOTR and Hobbit.
Though I would love to see a dvd disc of all the LOTR and Hobbit deleted scenes, because I am curious about them all
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True....
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