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Melyanna
Registered User
Sep 5 2015, 5:57pm
Post #1 of 14
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Tolkien and greek mythology
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Hi! I'm new on the message boards and I have a question for some of you who know more about the the mythology behind LOTR than myself.
Yesterday in school, in a lesson about greek mythology, I learned about the Ages of the World (the golden age, the silver age, the bronze age, the hero age and the iron age). At one point in the lesson my teacher compared Elysium, which is where the greek heroes go (e.g. Odysseus, Heracles etc.) to the Undying Lands in Middle Earth. At first I thought that you couldn't compare those, because as far as I know, Tolkien mainly drew from Norse and Germanic mythology, but then again I don't know a lot about the background.
So who's right? And just in general.. did Tolkien borrow anything from greek mythology? I recall that I once read somewhere that Tolkien was against mixing mythologies, but maybe I'm wrong..
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Sep 5 2015, 6:22pm
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- Tolkien wasn't against mixing mythologies as such. He said he wasn't keen on CS Lewis's throwing everything into the pot (including Father Christmas in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, but that's not the same when it comes to his writings. A lot went into what he called his Cauldron of Story.
Tolkien was very much into Greek - not many folk know that he went up to Oxford to study Classics. As for his writings, one specific point I can think of is that he once referred to the Rohirrim as 'Homeric horsemen.' Oh - and he compared the Men of Gondor to the ancient Egyptians. Think of Boromir in a shendyt.
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Melyanna
Registered User
Sep 5 2015, 7:40pm
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Thanks for the reply.
So is there any evidence that Tolkien borrowed the idea of "World-ages" and/or Elysium into his own writings? (in Tolkien's letters perhaps?)
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Sep 5 2015, 8:43pm
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Good question. To add just a bit to what geordie said, most mythologies have some kind of view of an afterlife, which is blissful as "bliss" is defined in that culture. Thus, Elysium was beautiful and peaceful, while Valhalla was a home for the bravest warriors. Tolkien had his own view, and constructed his Undying Lands as a place where the Elves could pursue art, music, and forms of technology (epitomized by Fëonor's inventions).
Part of the richness of Tolkien's writing is the variety and level of detail with which he imagined his various cultures, ranging from the Elves and Dwarves to the very different cultures of Men (e.g., Gondorians, Rohirrim, Numenorians, Easterlings, Southrons, and Dunlendings) and Hobbits. He drew from his extensive knowledge of real mythologies but gave each a unique flavor. You may enjoy this excellent paper on races and cultures in Tolkien.
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Morthoron
Gondor
Sep 5 2015, 9:30pm
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Tolkien's inveterate borrowing...
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Tolkien's work was a synthesis of old world mythology and gleanings from folklore motifs: the Kalevala, the Icelandic Eddas, biblical references, Anglo-Saxon poetry, Greek mythos, etc. The brilliance of the synthesis transcends the act of borrowing because the context is brought wholly into the historical perspective of Middle-earth, wherein the motifs he lifted are reminiscent of the older tales but altered either subtly or fully transformed, giving the world he created a firm basis in world legend, vaguely familiar yet alien enough to capture the readers' interest (and their hearts).
Tolkien's Valar are reminiscent of the Greek pantheon (complete with the deities' affiliations to earth, air, sea, etc.), as are events of the Akallabeth: the Adûnaic "Atalantë" cognate with Atlantis in Plato's Timaeus-Critias, in which Plato critiques the overweaning pride and corruption of the Atlanteans which led to their downfall, much the same way Tolkien chronicles the hubris and destruction of the Numenoreans.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
(This post was edited by Morthoron on Sep 5 2015, 9:31pm)
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Na Vedui
Rohan
Sep 9 2015, 1:57pm
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Hi Melyanna
I don't know about Greek mythology in general, but various people think that the Trojan Wars had some influence on Tolkien's work (things like the siege of Gondolin, for instance).
He would certainly have encountered Homer's story of those events in The Iliad and The Odyssey, quite likely already at school, and also - in his university work - medieval epics, little known now, which dealt with Classical stories.
There's a book which looks at this side of it in some detail: "The Forsaken Realm of Tolkien: JRR Tolkien and the medieval tradition", by Alex Lewis and Elizabeth Currie. I think they might be a little over-enthusiastic in finding individual parallels, but overall, the idea that this story of a famous ancient siege, with great heroism and a tragic ending, fed into Tolkien's world-building is quite credible, I think. Wasn't the fall of Gondolin one of the earliest bits - if not the earliest - of his mythology? (better scholars than me please set me right if I am mistaken!)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 9 2015, 2:56pm
Post #7 of 14
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"I was brought up in the Classics, ..."
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"...and first discovered the sensation of literary pleasure in Homer."
-Letter #142
I'd recommend Charles A. Huttar's "Tolkien, Epic Traditions, and Golden Age Myths" for further reading. It's in various collections of essays on Tolkien.
******************************************
"We’re orcs of the Misty Mountains,
Our singing’s part of canon.
We do routines and chorus scenes
While dancing with abandon.
We killed Isildur in the Gladden,
To help Sauron bring Armageddon!"
-From "Monty Python and the One Ring"
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 9 2015, 3:51pm
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I do know that Professor Tolkien drew on the legend of Atlantis for Númenor, going as far as referring to the sunken isle as Atalantë.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 9 2015, 3:58pm
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The particular 'myth' which lies behind this tale, and the mood both of Men and Elves at this time, is the Downfall of Númenor: a special variety of the Atlantis tradition. That seems to me so fundamental to 'mythical history' – whether it has any kind of basis in real history, pace Saurat and others, is not relevant – that some version of it would have to come in.
-Letter #154
******************************************
"We’re orcs of the Misty Mountains,
Our singing’s part of canon.
We do routines and chorus scenes
While dancing with abandon.
We killed Isildur in the Gladden,
To help Sauron bring Armageddon!"
-From "Monty Python and the One Ring"
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Sep 10 2015, 5:01pm
Post #10 of 14
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Evolution Of Tolkien's Mythology: A Study of the History of Middle-earth
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Another helpful book that you might be interested in is Elizabeth Whittingham's Evolution Of Tolkien's Mythology: A Study of the History of Middle-earth. She discusses at some length the ways in which Tolkien's work was influenced by Greek mythology, as well as Finnish, Norse and other mythologies, and of course the Christian tradition.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Melyanna
Registered User
Sep 11 2015, 3:30pm
Post #11 of 14
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Thanks all for answers.
Now that I think of it, I actually knew about the Atlantis parallel before starting this thread, but just hadn't thought of it when I posted.
Anyway, thanks for the welcome too. I've been following TORn for a little over two years now and recently also started peeking into the message board, but I haven't had the courage to post something until now.
I'm just a curious high school eager to learn more, but I don't live in America, so I might not be able to get all those books 
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Sep 11 2015, 8:46pm
Post #12 of 14
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By all means join us in the read-thru resuming next week!
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New "voices" are always welcome! As far as getting recommended books, do you have a Kindle or similar? A lot of these are available that way, and cheaper than paper versions. Or your public library, if you have one nearby.
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Fredeghar Wayfarer
Lorien
Sep 12 2015, 2:14am
Post #13 of 14
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The Undying Lands are similar to the Fortunate Isles, a concept that exists in both Greek and Celtic mythology - a paradise in the western sea where great heroes and immortals reside. People who were reincarnated three times and judged pure of heart and worthy of Elysium in each life were allowed to go to these Isles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortunate_Isles
I think Tolkien had other Greek influences as well. As others mentioned, the Valar are similar to the Olympians. Ulmo the Lord of Waters is a Poseidon-like character. Aule the Smith is similar to Hephaestus. Yavanna is a Demeter/Mother Nature type character. Irmo Lorien is a Lord of Dreams similar to Morpheus.
The story of Turin Turambar in The Silmarillion and The Children of Hurin has a lot of elements of a Greek tragedy (family curse, incest, inescapable fate, etc.).
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Sep 12 2015, 3:41pm
Post #14 of 14
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Tolkien may have been largely inspired by the legends of northern Europe, but myth is archetypal and universal. Every culture has similar archetypes, all part of the human subconcious.
bigger on the inside...
Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
Member of Manure Movers Local 101, Raptor Wranglers & Rehab, and Night Fury Trainers Assoc. Owned by several cats and a very small team of maniacal sled dogs... sorry Radagast, those rabbits were delicious...
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