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Elanor of Rohan
Lorien
Sep 5 2015, 10:20am
Post #1 of 57
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Fili's death scene: inside story
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A realiable source (a Tumblr blogger who also posted a series of videos) is at DragonCon in Atlanta.
She went to the panel of Dean O'Gorman, Stephen Hunter and Peter Hambleton: when Dean answered to a fan's question about Fili's death, he admitted he cried.
Moreover (and I saw the video about it), Dean said that PJ had devised Fili and Kili's death scene very differently: they rehearsed a scene when they died together, but later on, he changed it, giving Fili a "sudden and brutal death", in PJ's words.
Pity. Shame.
But the actors were professional and there was no grudge or bitterness when he told this story.
The banner "Justice for Fili" was shown at this panel, much to Dean, Stephen and Peter's amusement.
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Sep 5 2015, 10:56am
Post #2 of 57
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obviously they changed it for the sake of romance
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an understandable decision but I think in AUJ appendices it is clear that the audition for Dean was of this scene and that he is crying there a very powerfull image that I would have liked to see on the movie
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer
Hobbit Cinema Marathon Hero
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Thrain II
Lorien
Sep 5 2015, 11:00am
Post #3 of 57
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Like many things in this trilogy...
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they have done it right and closer to the book first, than changed it for the worse. 
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Sep 5 2015, 11:14am
Post #4 of 57
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Just seems the reverse of LotR...
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...where they tried different things first and ended up coming back closer to the book.
Shame...the joint deaths sounds a far more powerful scene.
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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Thrain II
Lorien
Sep 5 2015, 11:18am
Post #5 of 57
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I guess it has to do with PJ not being a big fan of The Hobbit book as he is of LOTR, but we will probably never know for sure.
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Shagrat
Gondor
Sep 5 2015, 1:52pm
Post #6 of 57
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You have to ask why sensible things like this change
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Watching AUJ and the interaction between the pair, I honestly think this plan was still in mind at that point. It was changed because of shoehorned romance, which evidently ballooned as production progressed and with the move to three films. Exactly why it was changed we'll probably never know, but I have my suspicions.
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Arannir
Valinor
Sep 5 2015, 2:01pm
Post #7 of 57
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I know many will say that we cannot judge what we have not seen.
But the death of the Durins is just so badly handled... ugh... instead of an awesome climax it feels like different stages of a videogame with different boss fights.
Having it all leading up to the last stand of the three dwarves... surrounded by Orcs and Azog... with Legolas, Tauriel and even Beorn trying to reach them (and taking out Bolg in the meantime)... even having an eagle (whose companions are busy fighting the bats) try to come to their rescue, being shot down by the Orcs... there are so many ways one could have made that work, even with time for the romance.
Shame, shame, shame. Happy for those who like this scene... for me, it is one of those I really have a hard time watching.
It would be my absolute dream if the EE offered an alternative to this... but hearing that it was PJ and not some WB executive who pushed for that "split-up" and the Tauriel/Kili climax, it is the last nail in the coffin for that hope (not that I ever really thought it would be changed).
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Sep 5 2015, 2:02pm)
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Goldeneye
Lorien
Sep 5 2015, 2:02pm
Post #8 of 57
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Due to TORn's rules I cannot share the clip here, but I edited Fili and Kili's death scenes to make it appear that they die together, or at least at the same time. No more Tauriel getting in the way of these brothers!
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Shagrat
Gondor
Sep 5 2015, 2:23pm
Post #9 of 57
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How do you know it was PJ who pushed for it?
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Bear in mind, the director is who the actors would receive any directives from, so when he says PJ changed it, I don't know how much we can read into that with regards to it being solely his decision. Sadly, with Kili tied up with Tauriel, and Thorin with Azog, Fili was essentially a spare wheel, doomed to die an unfitting death.
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Arannir
Valinor
Sep 5 2015, 2:56pm
Post #10 of 57
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... what the OP posted sounded like he liked the idea of a quick and sudden death.
And I can see a certain "appeal" in it... Doing something unexpected and rather brutal, especially for this trilogy's context.
But anyway, no matter who wanted or liked it, I wished they had stuck to the "dying together" path.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Shagrat
Gondor
Sep 5 2015, 3:38pm
Post #11 of 57
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I could imagine PJ coming up with that idea for Fili's death, probably because he was lost for a decent alternative once the status quo with his brother and uncle were established. Perhaps it could have been better still, but nothing would beat him dying with his brother anyway.
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Sep 5 2015, 5:09pm
Post #12 of 57
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I guess I'll have to be the one to hold a grudge for them.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Sep 5 2015, 5:11pm
Post #13 of 57
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Thank you so much for posting that!
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Wonderful Dean - I remember the Appendices where he is commenting on that it is more "Kiwi" to underplay certain things re a response - he is adorable and what an audition! And has been a grand spokesperson through the Appendices, sometimes I just start smiling with HIS smile.
Thank you for posting that as no matter how professional actors are, I don't think they are happy when they work so hard and stuff gets cut. Richard Armitage has seemed humbly pleased when a lot of his stuff made it in (as tho everyone knows whatever you do is likely to get cut, so he's surprised) and for sure James Nesbitt had made that remark in an article where he asked Ken Stott "what they were even doing there" e.g. in reference to filming BOFA I guess.
Then there was IMO the outrage of the London premiere - so however actors may view things from an insider perspective - being professional - it made me happy at cons that the actors are getting the fan perspective of things - Dean and Aidan said in another con (Boston, I think) that it's great meeting the fans, as re being on set something about it's just crew standing around, and you don't have a real good idea of how you did.
"Justice for Fili!" - hahaha - I love it! Absolutely agree with it too, I'd add a banner "More dwarves in BOFA! More Beorn!!! Dwarves RULE (LOL)!!!"
And I am happy Dean saw that.
As to knowing - I assume the bit where Dean was upset in the audition - that something like that was filmed - wow, that hurts to contemplate - not that I wouldn't have wanted the Durins to live anyway *grins* but I had always assumed they would have the epic, courageous, even triumphant in its way, end of the book, and the brothers would be together. Knowing there is actual footage and that got changed - and thinking Tauriel could have been worked in as a character in some other fashion - well....
Commenting charitably - things can happen when you overwork something, as opposed to knowing when to leave well enough alone. Anyway I just wish I had been in Atlanta, but five, ten, twenty years from now if I ever met Dean I'd tell him, oh, yes, many of us wanted more of your Fili on screen, and MISSED not having that.
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Sep 5 2015, 5:17pm
Post #14 of 57
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It's like if they ended up using Sauron vs Aragorn at the Black Gate, and then we found out they originally planned to keep it like the book. I think Fili's death scene was well done (Kili's was okay), but I'd much rather have the alternative. And it's so frustrating to hear how they almost got it right.
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Sep 5 2015, 5:21pm
Post #15 of 57
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I'm pretty sure TORn posted your clip on their Facebook page once... I saw it, and it worked really well.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Sep 5 2015, 5:49pm
Post #16 of 57
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I see what you are saying but...
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Sadly, with Kili tied up with Tauriel, and Thorin with Azog, Fili was essentially a spare wheel, doomed to die an unfitting death. Sure, if you are spinning a story, and you decide to have characters go down a certain path - I can even see the way Fili was handled as impact value from a director who knows how to handle a moment (e.g. coming from horror movies).
Well, OK. But that "technique" I think would have been less polarizing in the fan community, and more meaningful for a general audience, if we had had more Fili through BOFA. Even assuming that the audience was supposed to be perfectly familiar with the dwarves by then - well, for me that just makes Fili's lack of lines in the latter part of BOFA more egregious. For one thing it bothers me that it's not Fili who comments on Bard having the Arkenstone; neither Fili nor Kili had ever seen it so would only know the stone from stories, but I should think Fili as the Heir would be kind of concerned about the "heirlooms of their house". Why not give Fili that line, at least?
So I can see PJ handling Fili the way he did in its way is making a powerful statement; on the other hand as has been discussed - well, for me, it was short shrift. Because if the audience in theory was supposed to already know the dwarves, then it's insulting to think myself, as an audience, is just going to forget about them and be too enraptured and delighted with what is going on with Tauriel and Legolas to even notice that the dwarves - especially Fili, Balin, Bofur - don't seem to be saying much.
Not like Fili wasn't on a stamp, and banners, and in books so even to the most casual viewer I'd think you might expect a fair amount of interaction with this character. (Never mind crying over that .gif from the Appendices showing the Durins fighting together, and Fili and Kili fighting together).
Re the PR I get the impression that Fili WAS supposed to have a large presence - I suppose he does, in relation to the other dwarves - but the handling of Fili as a "narrative technique" once - evidently - a focus on Tauriel/Kili, Tauriel, and Legolas evidently came about - I think was jarring, more than anything, in the TE BOFA. Like a hole where something was supposed to be.
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Goldeneye
Lorien
Sep 5 2015, 6:34pm
Post #17 of 57
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I'm pretty sure TORn posted your clip on their Facebook page once... I saw it, and it worked really well.
Yes they did! Strangely their Facebook rules are a bit more lax than their message boards.
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LSF
Gondor
Sep 5 2015, 8:20pm
Post #18 of 57
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I going to disagree with the general sentiments here
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I like the way Fili's death is. I like them being separated and dying separately.
If I was to write this, even without the romance needing Kili to die with Tauriel, I would do it like this.
While dying together is a "nicer" way for them to go, I feel dying separately is much more powerful. Especially when one is suddenly hoisted up and killed in front of those watching. It's much more impactful, for both me as an invested viewer and for the 4 other characters. It serves as a sudden "this got real" moment for them.
We know Thorin, Fili, and Kili have to die, so the question is the most impactful way to do it. Having one die suddenly, in front of the other two, is more powerful than all three dying in a big fight with Azog, or two against Bolg. Even more so with the bond between Fili and Kili. They've been together the entire three movies, never far from each other. Fili was even around for and/or watching the Kili/Tauriel interactions. So to separate them and have them die separately is more of a dramatic ending for them. Without the other to have his back, they're not as strong.
I also like that Fili's sudden death led to Kili's. Kili, in his shocked and grieving state, rushes into battle to avenge his brother. He's always been a little more reckless, but this pushes him over the edge. It gives him, and Thorin, more of a reason to fight other than "There's the bad guy, let's get him." It's now more personal for them, especially Kili.
Say that the situation was Fili and Kili fighting Bolg together. The most character drama you're going to get is "Bolg kills one of them, the other gets angry and fights harder for a few seconds before Bolg kills him." You might get a short moment of them saying their goodbye to each other before Bolg serves the killing blow, if he just took them down without killing them yet. Not as powerful, in my opinion. The way it is now, Fili is a motivation for both Kili and Thorin, and for Bilbo and Dwalin. They fight harder because they watched Fili die.
Sometimes quick and brutal is more powerful. I like Fili, but I like his death as it is.
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Elanor of Rohan
Lorien
Sep 5 2015, 8:46pm
Post #19 of 57
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I can understand this point of view
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but I liked the original story better.
Maybe because I read the book first, and since this momentous event is bluntly told in a one-liner I have always hoped someone would unfold that and show it in its entirety.
And yes, I know that Tauriel's growing importance got more or less in the way of this brotherly bond.
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CathrineB
Rohan
Sep 5 2015, 9:16pm
Post #20 of 57
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"Like" Fili's death scene. It's indeed impactful and painful and things really took a sudden turn for the worst which the movie needed. I however hate what came after it. It's Kili's death that was pretty awful and unoriginal.
While I would have loved a moment for Kili to actually mourn though and I wouldn't have hated them dying together. But it has done before. This way was more orginal.
I'd be more angry about Kili's awfully cliched death drenched in that awfully written romance.
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Bishop
Gondor
Sep 5 2015, 9:28pm
Post #21 of 57
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I agree with the "things just got real" vibe
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Fili's death is indeed shocking, both to the characters and I'd say to the audience. But IMO it is marred by a sudden switch in focus; Kili's anger for his brother suddenly is sidelined for his fear for Tauriel. I'm not saying that Tauriel is more important to Kili at all, but that Kili's final tear simply feels to me the loss of love above all else. It raises questions interesting questions about what Kili's journey was really all about. Was he even totally on board with the quest emotionally?
There is another big big problem I have with the way the death of Fili, Kili, and Thorin are ultimately portrayed; Azog basically wins. His quest is to wipe out Thorin and his family, and basically he manages this. One can almost imagine Azog dying happy given how single minded and seemingly obsessed he is with this. He becomes the primary driving antagonistic force against Thorin rather than Thorin's own greed, which makes Azog's hatred an equal thematic power.
In the end it just leaves me cold. Thorin, Fili, and Kili could meet a tragic end doing something brave, Thorin redeeming himself for all the problems his greed has caused (did his greed really cause the problems anyways in the films?). But instead they're brutally manhandled by Azog and Bolg off the battlefield.
(This post was edited by Bishop on Sep 5 2015, 9:29pm)
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LSF
Gondor
Sep 5 2015, 9:45pm
Post #22 of 57
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I don't have a problem with Azog "winning" like that. Though does Azog know that Bolg killed Kili?
We won't know until the extended about your point about Thorin doing something to redeem himself to the others. Though I'd say they do go up to Ravenhill to do something brave- taking on Azog to end the battle, without the support of the army to back them up.
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Bishop
Gondor
Sep 5 2015, 10:05pm
Post #23 of 57
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It's not that what they're doing itsn't brave
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Their actions are brave, as they've been throughout the entire trilogy. It's more that they fall into a trap set by Azog by leaving the battlefield. They are robbed of a certain dignity by successfully being lured away from the battlefield where Thorin should have remained to lead as King. What happened to "To the king!!"? Maybe the rallying cry became "Where is the King again? I swear he was just here!!!". Azog basically gets what he wants; he lures them to Ravenhill and kills them. Jackson gives him the pleasure of succeeding, which kind of bothers me. A strong case could be made that he is more driven to kill Thorin than he is to obey Sauron, who he has the gall to talk back to. So when he accomplishes not only that, but also personally executes his nephew right in front of him it's just so damned cynical.
It's also a bit strange that Thorin dies off of the battlefield not necessarily knowing the fate of Kili or if the battle is won. It is impossible to get any kind of gauge on what he must be feeling at that point, because despite the fact that he speaks the words Tolkien gave him it's under an extremely different circumstance. I just don't know that it resonates for me.
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glor
Rohan
Sep 5 2015, 10:07pm
Post #24 of 57
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They had be reunited in the funeral scene.
The Durins being killed apart, separate by their last breaths, and reunited in their final resting place, the place they died to reclaim would have been powerful and poignant.
Their deaths seem odd, almost forgotten apart from one of the most exquisite scenes in any Middle-earth movie, Gandalf and Bilbo being friends. A funeral would have closed the circle, reunited the family not just Thorin and his Nephews but, the entire line of which our heroes are the last of.
No mascara can survive BOTFA
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dormouse
Half-elven
Sep 5 2015, 10:21pm
Post #25 of 57
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Thorin does know the battle is won....
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They were careful to show that. When he stands on the edge of the waterfall looking over the battlefield he can see the remaining orcs running back to the tunnels, the eagles and so on. He can see the end of the battle. He may not know about Kili (though after what happened to Fili he would have good reason to suspect it) but he does know the battle has been won.
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