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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 4 2015, 7:51pm
Post #26 of 144
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It's very difficult to come up with a credible reading, I think.
Unless Gandalf is fudging the truth. Remember, at the Council of Elrond Gandalf is trying to convince everybody that it *is* the One Ring. If he acts like he was pretty certain from the start and downplays any doubts he initially had it helps him build his case.
I can totally see Gandalf doing that.
******************************************
"We’re orcs of the Misty Mountains,
Our singing’s part of canon.
We do routines and chorus scenes
While dancing with abandon.
We killed Isildur in the Gladden,
To help Sauron bring Armageddon!"
-From "Monty Python and the One Ring"
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 4 2015, 7:52pm
Post #27 of 144
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I suppose that, qualitatively, there was little (if any) difference between the Nine Rings and the Seven. I don't think that the Dwarven Rings were made specifically with the Dwarf-lords in mind; it just happens that those were the ones Sauron selected for the seven kingdoms of the Dwarves.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 4 2015, 7:58pm
Post #28 of 144
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The quote about it being a great ring
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And this being plain from the first is from the Shadow of the Past, though. Here he is only talking to Frodo.
I think Gandalf lying to the Council is tricky - lying to Frodo seems more tricky again.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 4 2015, 8:03pm
Post #29 of 144
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It's difficult to imagine either way really.
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Could we really imagine Gandalf leaving Bilbo with a ring he believed to be one of the Nazgul's - knowing the fate that would bring (they were aware of be Nazgul since c TA 1,000)?
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Sep 4 2015, 8:04pm
Post #30 of 144
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Sure, there were some choppy moments, but overall I liked knowing just where Gandalf went after Mirkwood. Also even finding out about the White Council was nice. And I don't know why people think it's confusing. Gandalf was sent to Dol Goldur by Galadriel. He sent Radaghast to tell her he was there. He confirmed that the Necromancer was in fact Sauron - they weren't sure before then, and Saruman was convinced it was nothing. Galadriel rescued Gandalf, but spent a lot of her power to do so. She told him in AUJ that if he needed her, she would come, and she did. Everything is already there. I think it's probably fine the way it is. It's not important to me why the Orc was going to kill Gandalf - isn't that what Orcs do, kill people? No need to make this complicated.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 4 2015, 8:31pm
Post #31 of 144
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After all, from his very first appearance in The Hobbit Gandalf *is* a trickster figure!
I think Gandalf lying to the Council is tricky...
He's pulling out all the stops:
"Nonetheless I do not ask your pardon, Master Elrond. For if that tongue is not soon to be heard in every corner of the West, then let all put doubt aside that this thing is indeed what the Wise have declared: the treasure of the Enemy, fraught with all his malice; and in it lies a great part of his strength of old."
(Emphasis mine.)
...lying to Frodo seems more tricky again.
He's really really really trying to impress upon Frodo: "DON'T EVER USE IT!!!!"
******************************************
"We’re orcs of the Misty Mountains,
Our singing’s part of canon.
We do routines and chorus scenes
While dancing with abandon.
We killed Isildur in the Gladden,
To help Sauron bring Armageddon!"
-From "Monty Python and the One Ring"
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 4 2015, 8:50pm
Post #33 of 144
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Well one could certainly say that encapsulates
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The idea of the "generous reader", of which I am in favour!
I'm often struck by the disparity, mind you, that frequently the films are asked to ensure nothing but a logical interpretation could possibly be understood, whilst in the texts almost any mountain can be climbed to avoid an illogical reading!
As always, I'm very intrigued to see the response, if anything, to the not uncommon sequence above:
1. X is ridiculous in the films
2. X is actually in the texts, you know
3a X is suddenly not ridiculous
3b Silence
3c I find X ridiculous in the text then
One always hopes for the intellectual honesty of 3c but I'm not sure I've ever actually seen it happen. Ah well. Maybe they were doing a Gandalf in the first place ;)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 4 2015, 8:56pm
Post #34 of 144
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..it has been said that fiction is often held to a higher standard of logic than real life.
******************************************
"We’re orcs of the Misty Mountains,
Our singing’s part of canon.
We do routines and chorus scenes
While dancing with abandon.
We killed Isildur in the Gladden,
To help Sauron bring Armageddon!"
-From "Monty Python and the One Ring"
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 4 2015, 9:02pm
Post #35 of 144
(1529 views)
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the day Jonah arrived home and told his wife that he was three days late because he had been swallowed by a whale..
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AshNazg
Gondor
Sep 4 2015, 9:12pm
Post #36 of 144
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That could make an interesting prologue on its own...
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If Gandalf were to be interrogated about the rings and then maybe shown the vision as a prologue, before the whole Smaug stuff, that could be an interesting way to do it. I wouldn't mind that at all.
But I assume the rest of the "attack" would then play out pretty much as it did in the TE? I can't see much being added to that, unless Beorn is indeed involved, in which case the plot would become more relevant to the story, since it explains where Beorn's been and how he ends up on an eagle.
I suppose there are a few potential things here, but I can't get a good image in my head of how this will all look and I'm not sure how likely any of it is. I guess it's not long to wait now.
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adt100
Rohan
Sep 4 2015, 9:45pm
Post #37 of 144
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The book was far worse in this regard.....
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For all the problems with the Hobbit film adaptation (and there are many), I think a lot of the problems are due to Tolkien himself! Sure it's a 'children's fantasy book' and therefore you can forgive oddities, inconsistencies, plot holes etc. alas, in a 'realistic', live action film adaptation these issues are far harder to gloss over.
Personally I liked the Dol Guldur subplot, though would have like it to be fleshed out a little more. many of the details which you question however, I and most viewers I doubt even notice or are concerned with. If you go I to explaining every single detail and event, you might as well be reading a book. Things are implied or assumed or, dare I say, just aren't overly I portent to the narrative of the film as a whole.
Of course, in the book Gandalf disappears without a trace for half of it and no explanation is even given. You have to give credit to PJ and co for at least attempting something with this subplot, I'm not sure how else they could have handled it. For many 'casual viewers' the dol Guldur plot seems to be one of the highlights.
People complain about how they stretched a small book into 3 epic movies, but at the same times there are complaints that there is far too much left unresolved or unsuitably fleshed out. fair enough, but even if you cut all the Legolas stunts and Tauriel 'romance' (as many advocate) you still don't gain anywhere near enough time to adequately cover all the aspects of the story to satisfy such complaints.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Sep 4 2015, 10:43pm
Post #38 of 144
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I do see a problem with it...in the films
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Instead of the Orcs acting of their own volition as in the books, Peter Jackson turned the Battle of Five Armies into Sauron's first strike in the War of the Ring. In the films, it doesn't make sense that the White Council would bide their time with Sauron for 60 years after he just attempted to make allegiance with Smaug, and sent the Dead Orc Azog to attack the Mountain. Neither does it make sense that Sauron would attack the Mountain while he was still recovering strength, and then wait another 60 years before doing anything else. Sauron should not have been behind the Orcs attacking Erebor, because he was not yet ready to strike.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Sep 4 2015, 10:45pm
Post #39 of 144
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Yes, an explanation IS given in the book...
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...at the end.
Besides, Dol Guldur has nothing to do with the main plot of The Hobbit, but Jackson tried to make it mesh, and IMO it did not work. I was fine with Jackson including Gandalf's sub-plot, however he didn't need to try and tie it directly into the main story like he did, because frankly, it doesn't fit, and is not meant to.
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NManfredi
Rivendell
Sep 5 2015, 12:04am
Post #40 of 144
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What happened is that Saruman deceived the White Council and said that as long as Sauron didn't get the Ring things would be fine and they shouldn't worry about Sauron getting his powers back after the banishment. In secrecy, he tried to find the One Ring for 60 years until he tried to read the future in a Palantir and Sauron contacted him. Basically, after that Sauron controlled his mind and Saruman was the one who sent the Nazgul Frodo's way at the beginning of the FOTR. He had put spies on Gandalf and the Shire and after all the buzz Gandalf made coming and going from the Shire and searching information about the One Ring, Saruman finally knew it was on the Shire. And that's how FOTR begins. None of these events is fan-fiction. Everything was written by Tolkien, I will write down all the references later.
"Is it not a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt for so small a thing? So small a thing! And I have seen it only for an instant in the house of Elrond! Could I not have a sight of it again?"
(This post was edited by NManfredi on Sep 5 2015, 12:06am)
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NManfredi
Rivendell
Sep 5 2015, 12:18am
Post #41 of 144
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Yes it does have sense that the White Council did not act for 60 years, because Saruman was head of the Council and kept his intentions hidden for all those years since he found out that Sauron was alive and back again in Middle-Earth.
And for the other thing you mention, Tolkien explicitly states in the Appendixes to TROTK that Sauron's plan was to take Erebor as a way to reclaim all the ancient realms of the North, including Angmar. And that he also planned to use the power of Smaug to lead his armies. Both things are in Durin's Folk Appendix. And if you ask me, if I were a recently risen Dark Lord and had found out that an ancient, hardly beatable dragon is at hand to control, I would try to take that chance.
"Is it not a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt for so small a thing? So small a thing! And I have seen it only for an instant in the house of Elrond! Could I not have a sight of it again?"
(This post was edited by NManfredi on Sep 5 2015, 12:21am)
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squiggle
Rivendell
Sep 5 2015, 2:48am
Post #43 of 144
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Gandalf is heavily pre-occupied when Bilbo has found the one ring
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He has alot on his plate at the time, and it is easy to see how in relation to everything else it is 'possible' that he relates to Bilbo's ring find as a minor footnote & has a mental block about it, as is occurred silmultaneously in a particular period of time when he is invested in Sauron's return, the Wraiths, enemy alliance with Smaug, Azog's armies, the re-establishment of the Dwarves at Erebor and associated Middle Earth alliances, along with his concern about the Dwarve rings etc
This is why he is not able to see something that is right in front of his face so to speak, and i think everyone can relate to that type of thing coming about in one situation or another. 
(This post was edited by squiggle on Sep 5 2015, 2:51am)
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QueenCirce
Bree
Sep 5 2015, 3:03am
Post #44 of 144
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But to remain on topic, and to be realistic, I can think of a few things that I expect to be inserted back into the scene.
1) Gandalf's interrogation, probably by sauron, before original Bolg gets ready to execute him.
2) more scenes of Galadriel trying to escape with Gandalf
3) SOMETHING to explain galadriels sudden loss of power and shuddering on the ground.
4) more interaction with sauron before/after the wraith battle
The upside to most of the scenes being shot against a green screen is that hopefully they can fix some of the bad CGI in time for this release. Giant immobile sauron behind the approaching ring wraiths was one of the worst visuals of the film IMO. I'm really hoping they clean the scene up visually. The scenes with Sauron in DOS tank among my favorites in the whole saga, so I'm really hoping to see a more fully realized Sauron fighting the white council.
I truly think you have hit the Nail on the head here, i think this is where the editing was the choppiest and feels like more could have been added.... and where more Stuff could be added logically.
Other than that:
1) I especially want to see some more of the nazgul vs elrond fight especially with Saruman, ... I was kinda hoping for a Saruman vs Witchking 1v1 at some point....which was hinted.... that the witchking would stand out more....but it didn't really happen...and definitely more Saruman in general he is my favourite character from LOTR and Lee was amazing.
2.) Radagast doing something other than being Gandalf's personal taxi.... in the lego Dol Guldor set he is shooting lighting at an Orc in the DG box set ( i think it may have been when the movie was still two movies and still had the born torture scene.)
3. Overall much longer, this was by far my favourite sequence and sub plot in the entire movie and was the main reason i rewatched it at the Cinema....but the entire "battle" lasts for a maximum of i think of 5-6 minutes..... this could easily have been ten minutes and still not a drop in the ocean when compared to the films running time.
Also considering people like Alfrid got so much screen time when it adds NOTHING to the story kinda annoys me.
Please please please a LOT more DG ( and Raddy ) in the EE.
Fingers crossed.
(This post was edited by QueenCirce on Sep 5 2015, 3:14am)
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NManfredi
Rivendell
Sep 5 2015, 3:20am
Post #45 of 144
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Here's the Gandalf-White council-Sauron subplot
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I will back some of the things discussed until now about Dol Guldur and what happened after Sauron was found to be alive:
Gandalf goes to find Thorin because he knows about Sauron and that he is plotting war:
"But at last there came about by chance a meeting between Gandalf and Thorin that changed all the fortunes of the House of Durin, and led to other and greater ends beside. On a time Thorin, returning west from a journey, stayed at Bree for the night. There Gandalf was also. He was on his way to the Shire, which he had not visited for some twenty years. He was weary, and thought to rest there for a while.
Among many cares he was troubled in mind by the perilous state of the perilous state of the North; because he knew that already Sauron was plotting war, and intended, as soon as he felt strong enough, to attack Rivendell. But to resist any attempt from the East to regain the lands of Angmar and the northern passes in the mountains there were only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills. And beyond them lay the desolation of the Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. How then could the end of Samaug be achieved?" (Appendix A, Durin's Folk, TROTK)
"In the late summer of that same year [2941-year of the Battle of the Five Armies] Gandalf had at least prevailed upon Saruman and the White Council to attack Dol Guldur, and Sauron retreated and went to Mordor, there to be secure, as he thought, from all his enemies" (Appendix A, Durin's Folk, TROTK)
Now I will give a chronology of the major events described throughout the trilogy regarding Gandalf's subplot. Something to notice, some did happen around the time that The Hobbit's story took place, and some didn't. But they are all connected and were referred by Tolkien in his Appendixes. Here's the list:
"y. 2841: Thrain II sets out to revisit Erebor, but is pursued by the servants of Sauron.
y. 2845: Thráin the Dwarf is imprisoned in Dol Guldur; the last of the Seven Rings is taken from him.
y. 2850: Gandalf again enters Dol Guldur, and discovers that its master is indeed Sauron, who is gathering all the rings and seeking for news of the One, and of Isildur's Heir. He finds Thráin and receives the key to Erebor. Thráin dies in Dol Guldur.
y. 2851: The White Council meets. Gandalf urges an attack on Dol Guldur. Saruman overrules him.* Saruman begins to search near the Gladden Fields. [*Note, in the same page: It afterwards became clear that Saruman had then begun to desire to possess the One Ring himself, and he hoped that it might reveal itself, seeking its master, if Sauron were let be for a time.]
y. 2939: Saruman discovers that Sauron's servants are searching the Anduin near Gladden Fields, and that Sauron therefore has learned of Isildur's end. He is alarmed, but says nothing to the Council.
y. 2942: Bilbo returns to the Shire with the Ring. Sauron returns in secret to Mordor. [after being banished by the White Council]
y: 2951: Sauron declares himself openly and gathers power in Mordor. He begins the rebuilding of Barad-dûr. Gollum turns toward Mordor.
y. 2953: Last meeting of the White Council. They debate the Rings. Saruman feigns that he has discovered that the One Ring has passed down Anduin to the Sea. Saruman withdraws to Isengard, which he takes as his own, and fortifies it. Being jealous and afraid of Gandalf he sets spies to watch all his movements; and notes his interest in the Shire. He soon begins to keep agents in Bree and the Southfarthing.
y. 3000: The Shadow of Mordor lengthens. Saruman dares to use the Palantir of Orthanc, but becomes ensnared by Sauron, who has the Ithil-stone. He becomes a traitor to the Council. His spies report that the Shire is being closely guarded by the Rangers.
y. 3017: Gollum is released from Mordor. He is taken by Aragorn in the Dead Marshes, and brought to Thranduil in Mirkwood. Gandalf visits Minas Tirith and reads the scroll of Isildur."
From my point of view, I don't think that none of this information is stupid. It seems like a fairly reasonable chronology of events. And if you read the missing threads –that of course I don't have that much time to add– it all makes much more sense. The only thing is worth noting is that some events happened either before or after the book of The Hobbit, but some were around that time too –mainly those regarding Sauron and his attempt to reclaim Erebor and control Smaug. I would say that it was a wise move by PJ to have Gandalf's plot concise and in a short span, because if not you would have to expand the movies much more to explain Sauron's plot. Due to the fact that they saw this as their last attempt in bringing Middle-Earth movies, I think it's a nice move to flesh out the overall story more. But that's my opinion, of course, and not everyone has to agree.
What I do think can't be argued is that these events –most of them mentioned in the trilogy– did happen, because Tolkien wrote about them. Anyway, my point was –I'm sorry it comes with a long prologue– to post about them so we can discuss them together, and you could tell me if there is anything here you would like to se in the EE. I hope you have enjoyed. Cheers!
"Is it not a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt for so small a thing? So small a thing! And I have seen it only for an instant in the house of Elrond! Could I not have a sight of it again?"
(This post was edited by NManfredi on Sep 5 2015, 3:25am)
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CamdenMcAndrews
Rivendell
Sep 5 2015, 5:30am
Post #46 of 144
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So, in Tolkien's writing, sixteen years passed between Bilbo's 111th birthday party on September 22, 3001 and Gandalf's going to Minas Tirith to study up on Isildur.
Of course, in the film, it seems that Gandalf became suspicious of the ring right after the party and rushed off to the archives in Minas Tirith that same night. But the actual time elapsed during Gandalf's absence is a little vague in the film.
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adt100
Rohan
Sep 5 2015, 9:50am
Post #47 of 144
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But you can't do that in a film!
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I realised it is explained at the end, but you can't just rack something on to the end of a film like that. It's also barely fleshed out their either, so is also 'full of plot holes'. I wasn't entirely keen about tying the DG plot with th Hobbit and giving Sauron such a direct role in that regard, but it's PJ's interests ruin of event that, once you realise you have to have Gandalf off doing 'something' in those intervening sections, it's an obvious extension to the story. I'm not sure what other, better ways it could have been done. I'm sure there are plenty of alternatives that would have worked to a degree, but I think, as a film, DG works suitably well as is.
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NManfredi
Rivendell
Sep 5 2015, 12:41pm
Post #48 of 144
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In the book, some 17 years passed since Bilbo's 111th birthday and the moment he reads the scroll of Isildur. But I think that PJ said somewhere that he left out the 17 years and so in the movies, it is as if they didn't happen. I have to confirm it, though, to be sure.
"Is it not a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt for so small a thing? So small a thing! And I have seen it only for an instant in the house of Elrond! Could I not have a sight of it again?"
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NManfredi
Rivendell
Sep 5 2015, 12:50pm
Post #49 of 144
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I don't know in what other ways they could have told the story, but I don't think they did a poor job in telling it. If you read closely, the events at Dol Guldur happened much in the way that Tolkien wrote about them, so I don't know what other changes they could have made to the story to round it up better. What I do believe is that the last scene in Dol Guldur needed a bit more screen time, mainly, I think, a scene with Sauron showing a vision to Gandalf about how he will use Smaug to give rise to an era of terror, Gandalf trying to fight it and Sauron saying that the Free Peoples cannot win. Then, maybe a scene explaining how Galadriel found out about Gandalf's imprisonment and then a scene with Saruman that can show another hint to him working against the Council. Scenes like that could work, imo.
"Is it not a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt for so small a thing? So small a thing! And I have seen it only for an instant in the house of Elrond! Could I not have a sight of it again?"
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 5 2015, 12:55pm
Post #50 of 144
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In the book, some 17 years passed since Bilbo's 111th birthday and the moment he reads the scroll of Isildur. But I think that PJ said somewhere that he left out the 17 years and so in the movies, it is as if they didn't happen. I have to confirm it, though, to be sure.
This gets discussed in the AUJ-EE commentary track with Jackson, Walsh and Boyens. They suggest that as little as a few weeks pass before Frodo and Sam leave Hobbiton. However, that is outright impossible given the dates involved. Remember that they do not depart until after Gandalf investigates the Ring and returns. Frodo reaches the Ford of Bruinen on October 20 and regains consciousness in Rivendell on October 24. There has to be enough time for Frodo to reach Rivendell from Hobbiton, so at least a year must have passed in order to allow him to leave the Shire around late-September.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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