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adt100
Rohan
Sep 7 2015, 12:11pm
Post #126 of 144
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I think people nitpick too much!
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Not meaning to be funny, but the amount of 'details' people seemed to pick up on in this thread, I never even contemplated, not did or do they have any real effect on my understanding or enjoyment of these films. Not EVERYTHING has to be shown in films, plenty can happen of screen. In a book you have the luxury of 20 pages to explain the smallest detail if you so wish. You can't do this in film. Otherwise you would spend the entire film in an epic like these explaining away every little detail... at which point they cease to be a film!
I remember all the way back to FOTR when PJ was discussing how they were going to have those scenes early on in Bag End with Gandalf discussing with Frodo details of the One Ring. There were so many routes they could've taken, and given the detail in the book these scenes alone could easily have lasted half an hour and still wouldn't have covered EVERYTHING. As a filmmaker though you have to learn what to leave out and what is important in pushing the story forward.
With regard what happens to Elrond after Aragorn rides off to the POTD and Theoden's army to Gondor. We assume he goes back to Rivendell. Off scene. There is no need for explanation at all. Thus is the case with many of the examples of so called 'continuity' errors further up in this discussion.
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Arannir
Valinor
Sep 7 2015, 12:45pm
Post #127 of 144
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I also think that things such as Elrond's actions after Dunharrow do not need explanation.
But I also think DG is a whole different calibre.
Why doesn't Gandalf go straight to DG since all signs lead there? Why does Galadriel go in there by herself when Elrond and Saruman are there already? What does that Orc want from Gandalf? Why is Galadriel so weak after the Nine appear?
I think a lot of that could be solved by extended scenes:
- showing the "cloud" interrogating Gandalf... showing that Gandalf and Sauron try to get information from each other. That would explain more clearly why Gandalf willingly steps into a trap and why Sauron does not kill him (until that Orc is sent to finish or further torture the already weakened Gandalf).
- adding a scene between Galadriel killing the Orc and meeting the Nine. I loved the inclusion of the full ring poem... but it was so anti-climactic, mostly because the edit between these two events is simply badly handled imho. Adding a scene that gives Galadriel more time trying to get Gandalf out of there, maybe having to overcome obstacles would give the scene space to breath.
Not all is solved by that... but it might at least help to give DG the time it needs to build up some kind of momentum, imho (and if there is time to include some relevant Sauron/Ring information and give Saruman more to do, even better).
An extended use of the Nazgul might also help give the High Fells arc a proper climax, maybe using the Morgul Blade again... After the emphasis that was put on the Morgul Blade and the High Fells I really think it would have been better to have Gandalf battle the Nine at the end of DoS instead of Sauron (or at least at first before Sauron comes forth). They were the natural nemesis after the time that went into their tombs and blade, imho.
In the end, finding out about them having left their tombs really has not any impact on the story at all.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Sep 7 2015, 12:52pm)
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AshNazg
Gondor
Sep 7 2015, 1:05pm
Post #128 of 144
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I think there were a few physical enemies...
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Or a few thousand. Isn't there an entire army of orcs lead by Azog marching out of its gates shortly before Galadriel arrives? There's certanly old Bolg still left over. Maybe Gandalf saw that Dol Guldur was mostly empty after they marched out and told Galadriel and co. not to bring any men in his telepathic convo?
But surely a few men, if just for protection on the journey, might have been a good idea. I think, from a story telling perspective, it could have been fun to see a few elves there fighting the remains of the orcs. Then the camera could cut to the elves' perspective to show that the wraiths and Sauron are invisible. For added awesome, this could have been done with Lindir and Haldir. I don't see it as a problem, just a missed potential opportunity.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 7 2015, 1:18pm
Post #129 of 144
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Whether or not there were some elves along for the journey is an unknown. But bringing them into the fortress would have been without any use surely - they couldn't contribute to the fight and would have been in danger.
Perhaps Gandalf communicated or more obviously perhaps they just observed the fortress before entering.
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dreamflower
Lorien
Sep 7 2015, 2:02pm
Post #130 of 144
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and finding these little problems in the films do not in any way imply that I (or others) dislike them. In fact, I like and enjoy them very much. But nitpicking is a grand tradition of fandom (not only this one). It is a part and parcel of absorption in the material to look for every little thing, good or bad, and find reasons for them.
I do call things like that either plotholes or continuity errors. This is no reflection on PJ; I don't know of any filmmaker who doesn't make them from time to time, and in all the vast material some things are either overlooked or glossed over in hopes the fans won't notice. The latter never works--fans always find them.
The thing I mentioned about what Gandalf says to Frodo and Sam is not part of the revelations about the Ring. He specifically tells the two hobbits he will meet them in Bree. But he has also told them that he is going to consult Saruman at Isengard first. Even if Frodo doesn't realize that's impossible, Gandalf should. After all he is riding off hundreds of leagues to the south, while the two of them have a brief journey of (at most) four or five days to the east. Even if he had Shadowfax or an Eagle to travel by at that point it was impossible. I think that possibly PJ just hoped no one would notice this.
This happened because of PJ's desire to emphasize the urgency of the matter of the Ring by not having Frodo wait months to leave. But he failed to cover this with something that made sense with the geography.
Again, Elrond somehow, by himself, manages a journey that took the Fellowship weeks in much less time. He goes with no other purpose than a brief conversation with Aragorn and to deliver Anduril. Then he is going to travel all the way BACK to Rivendell collect Arwen and others and travel all the way BACK to Gondor? While not such a bad timeline error as the first one I mention, it is still a bit of a "say what?" moment. Again, glossed over.
I understand the rationale of having Elrond do this; after all PJ didn't want to introduce his sons or the Grey Company this late in the story, and was also a result of the decision not to reforge Anduril BEFORE the Fellowship set out. But I think it was not well executed.
Yep, those are nits. And I'd love to see some interesting explanation for them, or at least an acknowledgement of the hand-waving that went on.
This by no means indicates I didn't enjoy the movies. But I love them in spite of the flaws that common sense makes obvious. You don't have to think something is totally perfect to enjoy it.
Some people call it fanfiction. I call it story-internal literary criticism.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 7 2015, 3:00pm
Post #131 of 144
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-Also, it wouldn't be the only double-entranced pass-serving tomb since the tomb of the men of the mountain (or whatever their name is) in RotK also functions as a pass through the mountain range.
Even if there is a pass through the Misty Mountains that makes the tombs accessable from both sides, there might still be only one entrance to the tombs. I never even considered more than one.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 7 2015, 3:05pm)
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Sep 7 2015, 3:13pm
Post #132 of 144
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I actually imagined the tomb to be like a bit separated from the pass, with a trail leading from the pass to the tomb. Probably the entrance into the tomb was kind of facing west (IMO). Do you find this possible?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 7 2015, 3:16pm
Post #133 of 144
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It's at the start of AUJ - found one.So by that measure includes some land west of the mountains - though again who knows how far the label stretches.
Yes, I went back and reviewed the beginnings of the extended editions of both FotR and AUJ. The maps in the beginning of both films do show the region Rhudaur. However, you can't tell from the maps the full extent of the former kingdom; all you can say for sure is that it included the area between Weathertop and Rivendell that ia known in Tolkien's canon as 'The Angle'. I'm not sure what your last sentence means; of course the label is west of the mountains. None of Rhudaur should be east of the Misty Mountains and it is not depicted that way. I don't understand your comment unless you are confusing Rhudaur with Rhovanion.
From what I could see of Faramir's map in TTT, we don't see enough of it to tell whether Rhudaur is included on it.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 7 2015, 3:17pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 7 2015, 3:19pm
Post #134 of 144
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Perhaps such a trail is where Gandalf has left his horse.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Sep 7 2015, 3:27pm
Post #135 of 144
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I hadn't thought about where he left his horse - so yeah, the trail is an option 
I wonder through, did PJ intend it to be in a pass accessible from both sites of the Misty Mountains? Or did he intend the High Fells to be accessible only from one side?
If we guess he thought it would be accessible from one side, do you think it would have been from the west side of the Mountains? Or east?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 7 2015, 3:41pm
Post #136 of 144
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I wonder through, did PJ intend it to be in a pass accessible from both sites of the Misty Mountains? Or did he intend the High Fells to be accessible only from one side?
If we guess he thought it would be accessible from one side, do you think it would have been from the west side of the Mountains? Or east?
I can almost guarantee that the High Fells were originally meant to be reached from the western side of the Misty Mountains (which is, after all, where Rhudaur is located). Our Wizard was orinally supposed to travel to the High Fells immediately after the company left Rivendell, catching up with them just in time to rescue them from the Great Gobllin. There would have been no need, cinematically, to reach the tombs from the eastern side of the mountains.
Jackson had to alter the access to the tombs when Gandalf's journey was pushed back to when he leaves the company at the edge of Mirkwood. I have to assume that, before the change in the screenplay, he would have traveled directly south from Mirkwood to Dol Guldur.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 7 2015, 3:42pm)
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Sep 7 2015, 3:50pm
Post #137 of 144
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Assuming that he altered Gandalf's journey, did he re-intend the High Fells as accessible from both east and west?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 7 2015, 4:00pm
Post #138 of 144
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Assuming that he altered Gandalf's journey, did he re-intend the High Fells as accessible from both east and west?
Oh, I don't think that there is even a question about the first part of your question. That was the entire reason for separating Gandalf from the company when the group left Rivendell. The Men of the North would not have gone around the Misty Mountains to approach the High Fells from the east, so I have to assume that in the end, Peter Jackson placed it in or near a pass going through the mountains.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Sep 7 2015, 4:13pm
Post #139 of 144
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for the answer, at least now I know where the High Fells are probably located 
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 8 2015, 11:58pm
Post #140 of 144
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So I am talking about where the border is
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The border runs somewhere parallel to the misty mountains we assume. But we don't know if it stops at the western foothills, traces the ridge line, or follows the eastern foothills. Ultimately we are saying the same thing - that the fells are presented as being accessible from the east.
Not that it matters but it still looks like the FOTR map doesn't pan up enough to see the label but perhaps I'm watching the wrong bit.
(This post was edited by Spriggan on Sep 8 2015, 11:59pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 9 2015, 12:39am
Post #141 of 144
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Classically (that is, according to Tolkien's legendarium) Rhudaur extended from the Weather Hills, east to the Misty Mountains including the Ettenmoors to the Great East Road as well as the Angle between the River Hoarwell and the Loudwater (Bruinen). My assumption, barring contradicting data) is that the borders of Rhudaur remain the same in the films. If the High Fells was located in the ridge that forms the border between Rhudaur and Angmar (near Mount Gram) then the location does not work well for TH:DoS. The Misty Mountains, and proximity to the Coldfells, makes much more sense.
Rhudaur is visible on the map that appears during Galadriel's narration at the beginning of FotR (extended edition?) and in the map as it appears in Bilbo's study immediately afterwards.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 10 2015, 8:26pm
Post #142 of 144
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That eastern border is the misty mountains. What isn't specified is whether it follows their western foothills, the central ridge line or their eastern foothills.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 10 2015, 9:21pm
Post #143 of 144
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That eastern border is the misty mountains. What isn't specified is whether it follows their western foothills, the central ridge line or their eastern foothills.
Yes, but Peter Jackson was free to play fast-and-loose with such details regardless of what Tolkien may have intended.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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