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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
What do you expect to happen in Dol Guldur?
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AshNazg
Gondor


Sep 4 2015, 1:10am

Post #1 of 144 (3662 views)
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What do you expect to happen in Dol Guldur? Can't Post

There are a few here that want to see more of Dol Guldur in the Extended Edition.

I personally cannot understand why anyone would want to see more, because in my opinion Dol Guldur was disappointing and frankly felt completely out-of-place and irrelevant to the main plot.

But to those that want more from this plot. What can we expect to happen? What is it, specifically,that you want to see? And why? What improvements do you hope are made and how will these potential changes affect the plot or the movie?


Bishop
Gondor


Sep 4 2015, 1:51am

Post #2 of 144 (3466 views)
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People are all over the place in what they want from the EE, and that's fair [In reply to] Can't Post

For some people it's filling gaps in storytelling or pacing. For some others it's more character moments. And for the select few it's more Alfrid moments (I know you're out there). And then there are people that are happy with or without it, but will be cool with having it because it's just more of an already awesome thing.

I don't really know where I am. The whole middle earth film saga as created by Peter Jackson has been a HUGE roller coaster from me. Starting from a film experience that very seriously moved and inspired me, to a final experience that left me a bit cold. And then a bunch of stuff in between. I'm a big fan of EE's but I don't like to view them as corrective; the theatrical release should always stand on its own. But when it comes to Dol Guldur I was really perplexed by how awkward it was, and I do indeed hope the EE makes a bit more sense out of some things.

Some questions that I hope are at least partially addressed.

-What was their plan? Obviously they all went there together. So was the plan to send Galadriel in and then do some kind of wacky surprise "Do you need assistance" moment for effect? Was it a plan to trick Sauron? It didn't seem like a trick.

-I appreciate that original Bolg was there (for fans I guess), but what happened? Original Bolg was going to kill Gandalf? Why? He took him out of the cage and was going to kill him. Why? Was it just time for him to die?

-Why was Galadriel so surprised and terrified to learn about the nine? Hadn't they already basically discussed that? What did they think was there? Was she really surprised?

And then the final fight was awkwardly executed to me. Galadriel was on the ground writhing in pain with Gandalf for basically no reason that I could understand. Then she was super powered. Then Saruman said "leave it to me". I don't know. I think more Dol Guldur would be great actually.


NManfredi
Rivendell


Sep 4 2015, 2:24pm

Post #3 of 144 (3384 views)
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My view [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally, I didn't think it was badly executed, or that it felt out of plot. There are four main plots in the Hobbit trilogy, the main one, about Bilbo and the Dwarves, Gandalf and Radagast, Legolas, Thranduil and Tauriel, and finally Azog, Sauron and Bolg –That's how I see the trilogy, at least.

In both AUJ and DOS these plots were given much more space to breath and almost every thread was closed. But in BOFTA you have some threads that didn't connect, like how did Galadriel know for sure that Gandalf was there imprisoned. Was it because Radagast told her, or did the Eagles tell her? This is something I would like to know.

Then, about the fight itself, imo it was really good, and I don't think it needed more screen time. What they could do, and I think it would be a really nice scene, is to hint at Saruman's greed to find the One Ring, now that he knows that Sauron is alive and walking Middle-Earth again. He was already corrupted by that thought more or less at the time the events of The Hobbit took place, but wasn't planning allying to Sauron yet. A scene like that could really bring some closure, imo.

"Is it not a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt for so small a thing? So small a thing! And I have seen it only for an instant in the house of Elrond! Could I not have a sight of it again?"


Goldeneye
Lorien


Sep 4 2015, 2:38pm

Post #4 of 144 (3368 views)
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The whole subplot was mishandled [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that Dol Guldur was just a distraction from the main plotline of the Hobbit. To me, one of the biggest problems with this subplot is that it makes the White Council look like idiots. Clearly Sauron and the Nazgul are alive and well, yet they practically do nothing for 60 years until the events of LOTR. What the heck are Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf doing during that time?

- Gandalf: "Hey um, Saruman, how's it going with the whole Sauron thing?"
- Saruman: "The what?"
- Elrond: "You know, remember that time we nearly got killed in Dol Guldur by the dark lord and his servants?"
- Saruman: "Oh YEAH! That was crazy, right? I'll never get on Galadriel's bad side, tell you what."
- Elrond: "Me neither! Hey remember when we banished him and you said 'leave Sauron to me?' Because we were all worried he could return to Mordor, regain his full strength and once again dominate the free peoples of Middle Earth?"
- Saruman: "Hmm, I do recall saying something like that."
- Elrond: "Yeah, so umm...have you done anything about that yet? Because it's been like 37 years and we're getting kind of nervous over here in Rivendell."
- Saruman: "I mean, I've been doing some research about the One Ring in between my lengthy renovations of Orthanc. Gosh, couldn't you guys share some of the responsibility here? What have all of YOU been doing this whole time?
- Gandalf: "Umm...smoking pipeweed and shooting off fireworks in the Shire..."
- Elrond: "Uhh...mostly just hanging out on my balcony."
- Galadriel: "I've been perfecting the art of pouring water from a pitcher."
- Saruman: "Ugh. I'm done with you all."
- Elrond: "Pardon?"
- Saruman: "Oh nothing..."
- Gandalf: "Hey has anyone seen Radagast??"

Seriously though.


(This post was edited by Goldeneye on Sep 4 2015, 2:40pm)


Smaug the iron
Gondor


Sep 4 2015, 2:43pm

Post #5 of 144 (3343 views)
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What did they do for 60 years in the book? [In reply to] Can't Post

 


NecromancerRising
Gondor


Sep 4 2015, 2:55pm

Post #6 of 144 (3324 views)
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A great subject [In reply to] Can't Post

for a fan-editor to write and direct, instead of desperately "fixing" another man's workCool

"You cannot find peace by avoiding life"

(This post was edited by NecromancerRising on Sep 4 2015, 2:56pm)


Withywindle
Bree


Sep 4 2015, 3:11pm

Post #7 of 144 (3283 views)
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Yeah... Dol Guldur... [In reply to] Can't Post

I never really enjoyed this scene. It just looked awful, in my opinion. The part that especially looked just bad was when the eye was floating behind the Nazgul, then Galadriel did her thing. To extend it may be a good thing, yet I am not sure what is worth extending off of.

I think that the only thing that would change the plot of the movie would be if the Beorn subplot was inserted in the movie. Other than that I don't think much could be done to change the plot.


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Sep 4 2015, 3:12pm

Post #8 of 144 (3282 views)
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What were they doing for 50 years in the text? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure why we would find 60 years silly but 50 years not a problem.

Mind you the Nazgul are in a rather worse state - they knew they were still around (and even had a location for them) but seemingly didn't trouble themselves to have a look for almost a thousand years.

They are a mysterious (or easily distracted) bunch.


(This post was edited by Spriggan on Sep 4 2015, 3:13pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 4 2015, 3:14pm

Post #9 of 144 (3281 views)
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By the book... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
What did they do for 60 years in the book?




Gandalf kept tabs on Bilbo and spent some of that time with young Aragorn, joining the Ranger in some of his journeys in Eriador and Wilderland (and perhaps a bit beyond). With the help of the Rangers, he put a watch over the Shire.

Saruman lied to the White Council in what would be their last meeting, telling his colleagues that the One Ring was swept into the sea down the waters of the Anduin (the same story he gives in AUJ, but a deliberate deception). He takes full possession of Isengard and strengthens its defenses. He develops his Half-orcs, secretly sets the Dunlendings against Fangorn and Rohan, and has his servants continue to search for the Ring in the Gladden Fields and lower Anduin. Saruman also set spies on Gandalf and began keeping agents in Bree and the Shire. In TA 3000 he attempted to use the palantir of Orthanc and his mind was captured by Sauron.

Elrond continued to see to the education and training of young Aragorn/Estel until the young man reached his twentieth birthday.

I don't think that we learn much of the activities of the remaining members of the Council.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 4 2015, 3:17pm)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Sep 4 2015, 3:40pm

Post #10 of 144 (3240 views)
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I think the question may have been rhetorical [In reply to] Can't Post

In reference to the query of what they were doing about Sauron and the Nine.


Goldeneye
Lorien


Sep 4 2015, 3:53pm

Post #11 of 144 (3218 views)
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I would love to write/direct a Middle-Earth film. [In reply to] Can't Post

Just not one about Dol Guldur. There's very little basis on which to adapt the Dol Guldur story properly, since it is only given a light mention in The Hobbit and Appendices. So like PJ & Co, I would have to fabricate a substantial portion of the story in order to make it a feature film.

No, if I were given a budget and the rights, I would love to do a mini-series of The Silmarillion. I don't think it would work as a theatrical film since there isn't a narrative connecting the book together like LOTR or the Hobbit. But I can vividly picture some chapters working well onscreen. The formation of Arda, The Kinslayings, the Fall of Gondolin, Beren & Luthien, the War of Wrath, etc.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 4 2015, 4:19pm

Post #12 of 144 (3202 views)
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Yes. [In reply to] Can't Post

I chose to take the question at face value even though it might not have been meant that way. The point is that the White Council had been lulled by Saruman's assurances and put off its guard. Gandalf could surmise that Bilbo had found a lesser ring, lessening his concern over the object. Elrond, Cirdan and Galadriel could concentrate on the defense of their respective realms. Radagast had had little interest in Council affairs for some time.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


AshNazg
Gondor


Sep 4 2015, 4:33pm

Post #13 of 144 (3190 views)
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I don't understand. What do you expect them to do? [In reply to] Can't Post

So, they just destroyed the fortress of Dol Guldur and tried to attack Sauron, but he fled to Mordor.

What is it you expect them to do next? They can't go kill Sauron - Mordor is too well protected and Sauron is immortal as long as the One Ring exists and they're not certain where the One Ring is. Plus, the White Council are guardians and protectors - their job is to defend from attacks not to go out killing evil things. And since Sauron doesn't make a move, there's no reason for them to retaliate.

So, Saruman researches the One Ring and begins to use the Palantir to understand Sauron's plans. Meanwhile Gandalf keeps an eye on Bilbo, being suspicious of the ring. All this time they are fully aware that Sauron is preparing for his first move, but until he does so nothing can be done.

Finally Gollum is captured and events begin to move into motion. The Ring is passed to Frodo and Gandalf starts to put the defensive plan into action.

I don't see a problem with that in the book or the film.


(This post was edited by AshNazg on Sep 4 2015, 4:35pm)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Sep 4 2015, 4:34pm

Post #14 of 144 (3180 views)
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I guessed... [In reply to] Can't Post

But I think I only partially agree with that. Saruman had quieted concern about the One Ring* but Sauron and the Nazgul were still at least as much a threat as they had been at DG. The question of what the WC were doing on that front is one to which we get no answer.

Now, logically, I think that is either something one has a problem with or one doesn't. I'm not sure it can be illogical on film but logical in print.

* In passing, we should note that Gandalf didn't, oddly, think it was a lesser ring but thought it was one of the 20 Rings of Power. As written, anyway.

PS - apologies. Looks like it wasn't a rhetorical question after all.


(This post was edited by Spriggan on Sep 4 2015, 4:46pm)


Smaug the iron
Gondor


Sep 4 2015, 4:38pm

Post #15 of 144 (3176 views)
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I don't have a problem with it. [In reply to] Can't Post

I just diden't know what exactly happend in the book during this 60 years.


ThorinsNemesis
Lorien

Sep 4 2015, 4:39pm

Post #16 of 144 (3177 views)
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Gandalf's vision and his interogation [In reply to] Can't Post

The two scenes in the Extended Edition that I want to see the most are the scenes when Gandalf will see a vision with Smaug through the palantir in Dol Guldur, and when Sauron will interogate him about the Three Rings - I think if these scenes are included in the EE they would make the Dol Guldur subplot a lot more interesting Wink



AshNazg
Gondor


Sep 4 2015, 4:41pm

Post #17 of 144 (3171 views)
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That's fair enough, sorry... [In reply to] Can't Post

My reply wasn't directly to you but to the discussion of these events in general Smile


AshNazg
Gondor


Sep 4 2015, 4:57pm

Post #18 of 144 (3153 views)
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Okay, so this is the kind of answer I was looking for... [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think we'll see Gandalf's vision and am not sure what it would add (beyond looking cool). We already know Sauron's plan, and Smaug is already dead by that point, unless the prologue is changed.

But the interrogation about the three rings is possible. You say it'll be more interesting. I'm wondering how you expect this to play out exactly and, if you can, how you think it'll add to the story?

If you're willing, you can write a crazy fan version of what you'd like to happen. I'm not asking for evidence of what is likely to happen, I'm just interested in what it is that people want from this scene.

The reason I'm asking is because I don't have much interest in how this plot worked, but there's a part of me that hopes that somehow the EE fixes what I dislike about it. I really can't imagine how any additions could fix these problems, but maybe reading someone's fan version might restore a little faith?


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 4 2015, 6:08pm

Post #19 of 144 (3080 views)
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Greater and Lesser Rings [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In passing, we should note that Gandalf didn't, oddly, think it was a lesser ring but thought it was one of the 20 Rings of Power. As written, anyway.


So it has been said, but is that a reasonable assumption? Tolkien himself is inconsistent here. At one point he actually has Gandalf note that there are many lesser rings that are less perilous than the Rings of Power. Surely, he originally thought that Bilbo had found one of those. When was he convinced that Bilbo' had acquired one of the Great Rings?



Quote

Saruman had quieted concern about the One Ring* but Sauron and the Nazgul were still at least as much a threat as they had been at DG. The question of what the WC were doing on that front is one to which we get no answer.



And it was Saruman, in defiance of all logic and reason, who kept insisting that Sauron could no longer pose a threat to Middle-earth without the One Ring, even after the White Council had just faced the Enemy posing exactly such a threat. And the Nine are now freed and active as well. Shouldn't Saruman have lost all credibility at this point?

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 4 2015, 6:16pm)


ThorinsNemesis
Lorien

Sep 4 2015, 6:32pm

Post #20 of 144 (3043 views)
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Prologue, and theory [In reply to] Can't Post

About the palantir vision, I hope it gets in the movie in some way, even if it means changing the prologue Smile

About the interogation scene, maybe Sauron will appear in his 'flaming armor' form before Gandalf (or they will take Gandalf to him), he will want to know who are the keepers of the Three Elven Rings, and probably he makes Gandalf confess (and that's why he won't be surprised when Galadriel confronts him, and why he taunts her about the Rings), then he locks him in his cage again, rendering him useless (the reason why the Orc wants to kill him). It's not the best theory, but it's all I've thought Wink

I hope both of those scenes get included, as Dol Guldur was one of the parts I was also most disappointed by (and I had looked forward to see it since the trailer), and I wish the EE fixes that.



Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 4 2015, 6:41pm

Post #21 of 144 (3031 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

"When did I first begin to guess?'" he mused, searching back in memory. "Let me see – it was in the year that the White Council drove the dark power from Mirkwood, just before the Battle of Five Armies, that Bilbo found his ring. A shadow fell on my heart then, though I did not know yet what I feared. I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was – that at least was clear from the first.”
-The Shadow of the Past

“For one thing, the tale [Gollum] told of his loss agreed with that which Bilbo has now told openly for the first time; but that mattered little, since I had already guessed it. But I learned then first that Gollum's ring came out of the Great River nigh to the Gladden Fields. And I learned also that he had possessed it long. Many lives of his small kind. The power of the ring had lengthened his years far beyond their span; but that power only the Great Rings wield.”
-The Council of Elrond

"The Nine, the Seven, and the Three," he said, "had each their proper gem. Not so the One. It was round and unadorned, as it were one of the lesser rings; but its maker set marks upon it that the skilled, maybe, could still see and read."
-ibid

******************************************
"We’re orcs of the Misty Mountains,
Our singing’s part of canon.
We do routines and chorus scenes
While dancing with abandon.
We killed Isildur in the Gladden,
To help Sauron bring Armageddon!"
-From "Monty Python and the One Ring"


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 4 2015, 6:48pm

Post #22 of 144 (3023 views)
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Thanks. [In reply to] Can't Post

That still disagrees with other things that Tolkien wrote, as Gandalf had also spoken of the lesser rings in reference to Bilbo's. But, disregarding that, Gandalf must have known that Bilbo's ring could not be one of the Three Rings of the Elves, nor could it be one of the Nine. That only left the Seven Rings of the Dwarves or the One.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Eruonen
Half-elven


Sep 4 2015, 7:06pm

Post #23 of 144 (3002 views)
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I give Gandalf a little credit as nobody expected The One Ring to be found [In reply to] Can't Post

deep in the Misty Mountains of all places. It was last know to be in the Anduin. Nobody could know it was picked up by Smeagol and carried far away.

Now, it is odd he did not ask to examine it. If he had, it may have revealed itself.


Arthael
Lorien


Sep 4 2015, 7:32pm

Post #24 of 144 (2974 views)
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What I expect and what I want are different things. [In reply to] Can't Post

But to remain on topic, and to be realistic, I can think of a few things that I expect to be inserted back into the scene.

1) Gandalf's interrogation, probably by sauron, before original Bolg gets ready to execute him.
2) more scenes of Galadriel trying to escape with Gandalf
3) SOMETHING to explain galadriels sudden loss of power and shuddering on the ground.
4) more interaction with sauron before/after the wraith battle

The upside to most of the scenes being shot against a green screen is that hopefully they can fix some of the bad CGI in time for this release. Giant immobile sauron behind the approaching ring wraiths was one of the worst visuals of the film IMO. I'm really hoping they clean the scene up visually. The scenes with Sauron in DOS tank among my favorites in the whole saga, so I'm really hoping to see a more fully realized Sauron fighting the white council.

"There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go."


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Sep 4 2015, 7:34pm

Post #25 of 144 (2969 views)
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So we would naturally imagine - and the films do a better job here- but it seems not ... [In reply to] Can't Post

"'When did I first begin to guess?' he mused, searching back in memory. 'Let me see – it was in the year that the White Council drove the dark power from Mirkwood, just before the Battle of Five Armies, that Bilbo found his ring. A shadow fell on my heart then, though I did not know yet what I feared. I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was – that at least was clear from the first. Then I heard Bilbo's strange story of how he had "won" it, and I could not believe it."

In case we think that "Great Ring" might be a generic term:

"But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous. 'A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings."

What Gandalf has to say on lesser rings actually works against obvious comprehension:

"In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds: some more potent and some less. The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles – yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals. But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous."

So we have Gandalf who knows it is a Great Ring - and therefore perilous - yet is relatively unconcerned. And we have him knowing it is one of 20 - 1 (unconsidered) - 3 (which he knew of). Could he have considered it one of the 7 or 9 and even so would he not have known that Sauron was seeking these?

It's very difficult to come up with a credible reading, I think.


(This post was edited by Spriggan on Sep 4 2015, 7:35pm)

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