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Cirashala
Valinor
Sep 2 2015, 9:26pm
Post #1 of 14
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How long do you think it would take a dwarf
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to forge a sword? I'm not talking an elaborate, kingly "show" sword complete with the finest gems inlaid into the hilt and gold filigree threading through the intricately carved blade. I'm talking about a simple blade, like Kili's in AUJ, for example (it's the plainest of the company's swords, I think, aside from the etching on the hilt and pommel).
I looked up medieval smithing timetables for crafting swords (some people still practice the old techniques) and, considering potential other jobs, the general estimate for a decent quality double bladed sword (aka dwarf style, not single bladed katana style like Thranduil's) was about two weeks, give or take (generally erring on the "take" side).
BUT- we're talking dwarves here, not modern day humans. And I'm also talking ONE sword only, not bouncing between multiple orders.
Thorin, for example, was undoubtedly educated in smithing despite being royal (given that it's the main craft of dwarves and your kingdom's main source of income, I HIGHLY doubt that he wouldn't have been trained as a smith of SOME kind, whether goldsmith, silversmithing, jeweler, or blacksmith) prior to leaving Erebor. And afterward, he became a swordsmith/blacksmith, and performed that occupation for many, many decades prior to the Quest.
So I'm curious. Would a dwarf, whose strength is far greater than a human (and thus, one pound of a heavier forge hammer with greater force behind it would be equal to several , who has practiced smithing for well over 100 years (maybe even about 150 years, as we are given the same year of birth for him as the book on the tapestry), who has undoubtedly made countless swords, both simple and elegant, and who is a trained and highly skilled swordsman himself, be able to churn out a simple sword like Kili's far more quickly than even a human modern-day traditional style master swordsmith?
And if so, how long, if pressed for time, do you think it would take him? I'm guessing maybe if he worked 24 hours around the clock on a single project (without sleeping), plus sharpening time, he MIGHT be able to create a passable, functional sword, even if it's not as high quality or elaborate as he would like.
I need an estimate for my fan fiction, but it also made me quite curious as to what you all think a dwarf is capable of in a forge if pressed for time yet determined to make something high quality 
(This post was edited by Cirashala on Sep 2 2015, 9:27pm)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Sep 2 2015, 9:54pm
Post #2 of 14
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A cursory glance around the web suggest a modern made sword using
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automated hammers takes a minimum of 2-3 weeks. If you want to equate dwarf hammering with machine hammering this might be close. However, if you impart some special skill from Aule for example...feel free to reduce it.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Sep 2 2015, 10:04pm
Post #3 of 14
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Here are some fun articles - I learned a lot
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"Poof" you're a swordsmith....
http://www.anvilfire.com/...swords_faq_index.htm
and
http://www.cracked.com/...-an-inside-look.html
These are fun, but think they also cover what you are looking for. Gave me new respect for swordsmiths, too. Especially about the bits of metal that get imbedded in your face, and the chemicals, and so on.
But thing that sticks in my head, from reading, is that one person didn't make a sword like I have seen in media - that it was an assembly-line kind of thing, mostly, except in some cases.
Re the TV show, Forged in Fire, a good blacksmith seems to be able to chunk out a big knife/sword in an hour or so - a weapon, of a kind, even if crude. For the nicer weapons, I think they give them a week (I love this show!!!! )
http://www.history.ca/forged-in-fire/
Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 2 2015, 10:07pm
Post #4 of 14
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Dwarves forged Narsil; it was remade by the Elves of Rivendell within seven days, so a week at minimum is probably a good estimate to produce a weapon of great quality.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 2 2015, 10:08pm)
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Meneldor
Valinor
Sep 2 2015, 11:31pm
Post #5 of 14
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Wondering what you mean by "double-bladed"
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which is generally used for silly fantasy weapons like Darth Maul's 2 ended lightsaber. I suspect the term you're looking for is double-edged, a single blade with both edges sharpened, unlike a katana which only has one sharp edge.
As for dwarvish strength and hammering, I'm not sure that would be an advantage. Forging and tempering a sword requires a great deal of skill, and I suspect a great number of carefully judged blows will lead to better results than a few tremendous smashes.
Another point to consider is that JRRT wrote that dwarves even made toys that were obviously magical, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that they could use magic to craft weapons in ways that mere men can't. That could reduce the forging time by as much as you need.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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Cirashala
Valinor
Sep 2 2015, 11:53pm
Post #6 of 14
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And my bad- I meant double edged 
I understand what you mean by "skilled blows" vs "smashfests"- I would imagine Thorin would most definitely incorporate skilled blows rather than just smashing down  But I would think it may take less blows to do the same work than someone who needs, say, four blows in the same spot to manipulate the metal a certain way because of a lack of strength. That's what I meant
Thanks for pointing out the magic part- an easy thing to miss, to quote Gandalf I suppose since there aren't many overt references to dwarf magic, unlike the magic of elves and Istari and Maiar and Valar- it makes a bit of sense that it is easily overlooked that dwarves also possess an unusual skill and inner gift when it comes to crafting great works from their hands thanks to Aule their creator, and I would assume they know a great deal more about metallurgy than any in Middle-earth (elves being a darn close second). I would also think that a great deal of knowledge would be handed down through generations, if not internally already known simply by virtue of being a dwarf.
I don't know if you've ever read fan fiction, Meneldor, but a LOTR/TH crossover fic on fanfiction.net (the BEST fan fiction I've ever read, hands down, and I've read a fair number of good ones) called The Raven's Blade (It's a four parter) by Valandir illustrates what you are talking about regarding dwarf magic in the forge very well (no, this isn't my fic- I could never hope to be THAT good of a writer lol). I took the fic as being expanded upon what Tolkien has said, rather than a literal interpretation of the references to dwarf magic, but oh my gosh this person understands Tolkien's world far more than any other fic writer I've ever seen (I've never been so impressed of a ME work, aside from Tolkien himself, as I was with this one- and I'm a very picky fan fiction reader in that if it isn't plausible in Tolkien's ME I don't read it). I think you may enjoy it, if you like good quality fan fiction (keep in mind that, for ease of mind with the author, they rated it M just because of battle sequences to be safe, whereas if I'd written it I probably would have rated it T given what usually constitutes M, but you will have to select the M setting to find it- nothing but battle scenes even come remotely close to the M rating and there isn't anything "intimate" in it at all whatsoever in that particular regard). I hadn't read it in a while (it was completed over a year ago) but thanks for the reminder that it could definitely have been possible (maybe not quite to the extent that RB did, but dwarves did have some magic to them).
I doubt Thorin could conjure a sword out of thin air with magic lol, but I suppose it isn't unreasonable to suspect that his skill with forging and dwarven ability could conceivably knock out a very basic, balanced sword in a 24 hour period, providing that, aside from the central furrow, there is no other etching involved, a basic strung grip (given that he's doing this at Beorn's house and he doesn't have access to leather, and the scabbard is still intact) and the hilt and pommel are basic and provide the counterweight and hand protection needed to safely function and nothing more.
Thanks Meneldor!
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balbo biggins
Rohan
Sep 3 2015, 12:12am
Post #7 of 14
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apparently they can actually smithy the sword into shape with just their fists, and hold it when its still red hot! they use dragons teeth to sharpen them, and the skin from a wild warg to bind the handle.
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Cirashala
Valinor
Sep 3 2015, 12:22am
Post #8 of 14
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I know, I know- you can be very cynical, and I respect the desire for realism that often finds its source in cynicism.
But seriously, I'm not going to write that in my fan fiction (I have a feeling you were being very sarcastic anyway). I ground my fic in reality (as much as one can with a place like Tolkien's Middle-earth) as much as possible. Wounds do bleed and take a while to recover from, broken bones don't heal overnight, and dwarves don't punch swords into being
Plus, even IF dwarf hands could handle heat, their leather gloves certainly could not!
I'm not a bad fic writer- I do everything in my power to make certain that it is well done, to the best of my ability, and to keep it as true to Tolkien as I can, while expanding on the parts of the story that we know were there (like camping scenes) but may not have made it into the stories or films (and if I create an original character to see what can happen if another person is involved in a storyline, I create a realistic one not a barbie doll mary sue kung fu fighter).
Ask anyone on here who has read my fan fiction. I've honestly only had ONE flame/cynic review since I first posted/published it on fanfiction.net over two years ago. But on constructive criticism and praise, which have made me a better writer and continue to do so, I've had almost 1,000 positive reviews, not counting anything anyone has said on TORn or other "non-official" reviews. AND- I've had someone write a fic about my fic (that was weird but cool), and even had someone who does amateur book reviews on wordpress (a blog site) mention my fic in a fan fiction category review and said it was one of the best fics they've read, and the best in the Hobbit category (look up lullabybookish on wordpress.com).
I appreciate honest cynicism, and helpful feedback. But please don't spend time knocking my OP with blatantly unhelpful sarcasm when I am TRYING to make my story as true to Tolkien and realistic as possible, and as such I am asking others who may know more than I at a Tolkien-related topic (in writer's terminology, it's called STORY RESEARCH).
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balbo biggins
Rohan
Sep 3 2015, 12:36am
Post #9 of 14
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slight overreaction!
first its very possible a dwarf would use warg hide, and not in the realms of fantasy to use dragons teeth or scales to sharpen things on, especially if its as tough as mithril (just read on tolkien gateway)
second, if you wore a mithril gauntlet and were very strong, im sure that its possbile to shape heated metal, and even i can bend a steel rod to some degree!
third red hot doesnt mean molten, i sure a dwarf smith could handle something very hot, especially if you were created by a smithy god!
so upon reflection id say all my ideas were valid and perfectly in the realms of fanfiction,even if i was just messing around, and i in no way meant to sound disparaging , i didnt actually read the last line of your post regarding your fanfiction so i had no idea thats what the post was even about!
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Cirashala
Valinor
Sep 3 2015, 1:12am
Post #10 of 14
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It's not unusual for fan fiction writers to go on the defensive, considering how much cynicism and how many disparaging remarks are aimed at even the good fan fic writers because the lousy ones seemed to have defined fan fic to the rest of the world
Onto a more (serious) and hopefully less offended reply  :
Warg hide opposed to mithril- I'm not 100% on that, simply because mithril was extremely unique in its properties, especially when it came to hard as a rock, and that's why it was so valuable (plus its scarcity in that it was ONLY located in Moria, which happened to have a balrog as the current tenant  ). I also cannot see someone making forge gloves out of it when they could make a MUCH better use of it making mithril ring armour I have no doubt whatsoever that warg hide would be tough, but I'm not certain it would be THAT tough (plus, as I said, they are at Beorn's at the moment- the context is that Kili lost his sword in Goblin Town during the mad dash to get out, which is most certainly plausible as many of the other dwarves lost weapons or traded them (like Ori with Dwalin's hammer, Nori losing knives but gaining a goblin machete type sword, etc) during the chaotic, confusing fray. And Beorn, being vegan, wouldn't have any leather around as it's most definitely an item that would require the death of an animal to acquire). That's why I'm going with a strung grip, as Beorn has no shortage of yarn (he keeps sheep, and done right it can work- in fact, Kili's movie knife has a blue strung grip ). Is it possible? I have no doubt. But I doubt it would be plausible. (plus, you have the issue of knuckle imprints on the blade lol).
Beorn's aside, I would think that, rather than specifically hunting wargs for leather, the dwarves would likely tan the hides of whatever animals have been hunted for their "red meat off the bone" (Gimli), as such game was far less dangerous than a warg and less likely to be accompanied by orcs, and they had the hides anyway And they do seem quite opposed to the filth of things having their origins in Morgoth/Sauron, so I think they'd find warg hides to be as distasteful to use as a rabid dog's. Now, a dragon tooth as a hilt is a really cool idea, mostly as a memento to a great victory (few have succeeded in the extremely difficult task of slaying such a beast), and I can see it functioning quite well as a hilt. But unless dragon's teeth are made of a very grainy substance (think kinda like sandpaper- a whetstone, which I own (a handheld one for my axe- not weapons axe but wood chopping one), has a finer grain but still has a grain to it which is how it sharpens and polishes and files the blade). But as Tolkien (to my knowledge) never describes the texture of dragon's teeth, other than they're big and sharp, maybe it could happen
I actually saw a smith at work (he does swords too) at the county fair last year (not doing swords, but saw some of his work). It was pretty neat to see a smith in action  In fact, because we're homeschooling, he was kind enough to do a demonstration outside of the usual time for my five year old daughter, and gave her the leaf he'd fashioned and engraved for free when he was done Even I could bend some of the rods he had, and though I'm no dwarf lol (even if my mother is 4'11" and, with all loves to her, is built like one), I am still pretty strong for someone who is only five feet tall (I also have broader shoulders than most 5 foot people- I pick kids and large bulk sacks of beans and flour and garden and large canning pots full of water (they are heavy!) and use tools and axes and shovels frequently).
I am sure a dwarf, if so inclined, could pound something into shape. But I think they have more respect for their craft than that
I do know for fact (thanks to the Silmarillion) that dwarves DO in fact have a much higher heat tolerance than humans and quite possibly elves as well. It is demonstrated during the Battle of Unnumbered Tears (I think that's the one) where they slew Ancalagon. But the leather doesn't have that kind of heat tolerance lol I've also done some leatherwork- my aunt taught me when I was around five, and did so every time we visited her (she's won blue ribbons at fairs for both leatherwork and photography) so I have a tough time seeing leather grasping red hot metals without burning a mark in it (you can burn leather and make some really cool patterns, but that's quick and then remove the hot implement, and they don't get red hot for that process). In fact, I think it would only take a minute before the leather starts full on smoldering (granted, I've never left any heat on leather that long). Whether their hands can touch red hot metal directly or not remains to be seen, but they can certainly handle the heat of a forge better than humans, I'm sure!
In regards to the wheelbarrow scene, I can wrap that around my head because dwarves are the ME experts in metallurgy, so I have no doubt they devised an alloy that could handle the heat of molten metal so it can be transported from one location to another, or even just hot things in general Since it didn't glow, I can tell that it wasn't THAT hot for Thorin to grab onto it, and it was in molten gold (I believe gold has a lower melting point than steel, but will have to verify that) so it didn't even get mildly red in the molten gold, therefore it must have been cool enough for at least a dwarf to touch
With regards to last part, don't worry about my fan fiction I thought the sarcastic post was meant because I am a fan fiction writer (as I said, there are so many people lambasting fan fic writers, especially online, that us good ones tend to get defensive if we think others are doing so ). My bad
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balbo biggins
Rohan
Sep 3 2015, 1:23am
Post #11 of 14
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well you didnt specify any situations you just asked how fast could a dwarf make a sword, i still think what i wrote are all possible ways a dwarf could go about in the smithy.
if cow hide can be tough, so can a wargs! and hide is a far better handle for a sword, its all about grip and springiness when you hold it, a shock absorber! and even an iron gauntlee over a leather glove combined with a dwarfs skill and power and skill could really do some interestings things in the workshop, weapons are usually made light and flexible rather than stiff and solid.
dwarfs would be making axes anyhow!
p.s any post longer than a few paragraphs and i give up, generally!
(This post was edited by balbo biggins on Sep 3 2015, 1:23am)
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Meneldor
Valinor
Sep 27 2015, 10:31pm
Post #13 of 14
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Last week I was at the local 19th century historical village and
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stopped at the smithy. The blacksmith was just starting a project, heating a foot-long piece of mild steel stock, maybe three quarters of an inch wide and an eighth of an inch thick. He hammered it and heated it some more as we talked, and soon one end was pointed. After about ten minutes, I moved on.
About an hour later, I looked in again and saw him sitting and filing a preliminary edge onto his new knife. It was a fairly plain pattern, but with a real artistic flair to the handle. So, with good tools and materials and the right skills, I'm sure Thorin could make a plain, functional sword in a day.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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Cirashala
Valinor
Sep 28 2015, 3:40am
Post #14 of 14
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It is really cool to see a real blacksmith in action
The smith I saw at the fair started with a round steel rod, about the size of a pencil (maybe just a hair thicker) and within a half hour he'd made a small leaf for my daughter. I will see if there is some way I can post a pic of it, but I'm a bit inept at that on here
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