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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Architecture of Bag-End

CamdenMcAndrews
Rivendell


Sep 2 2015, 5:39am

Post #1 of 15 (6666 views)
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Architecture of Bag-End Can't Post

I have a question about Bilbo's house, Bag-End, as it appears in the films. In the films, you can clearly see that there is a small step down from the entry hall into the parlour; and also an identical step down from the Kitchen into the Parlour. So, obviously, Bag-End has floors at two levels, one slightly lower than the other.


The question: Where is the other step down? The Oak Hall appears to be on a level with the Entry and I don't see any other steps in the hallways, but there also does not seem to be a step down in the short hallway that runs from the Atrium to the Parlour.


I've been playing with a layout of Bag-End in Second Life, and this bit has me stumped. I don't know whether to make the hallways, kitchen, entry, and all the rest of the house on the same level with the Parlour floor a little lower, or something else.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 2 2015, 1:29pm

Post #2 of 15 (6496 views)
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Might this help? [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is Weta's layout for Bag End; I don't know if it has the detail that you require:





By contrast, here is Karen Wynn Fonstad's illustration of Bag End from The Atlas of Middle-earth:




"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


balbo biggins
Rohan


Sep 2 2015, 1:42pm

Post #3 of 15 (6484 views)
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its own level [In reply to] Can't Post

if the entrance hall on one side and the kitchen on the other side both have steps down into the parlour it suggests the parlour is slightly lower than the rest of the house for some reason, it doesnt mean there are two levels!


Eruonen
Half-elven


Sep 2 2015, 2:54pm

Post #4 of 15 (6449 views)
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If one was to add a toilet / lavatory etc. where would you place it? [In reply to] Can't Post

My guess would be at the far end by the guest bedroom or near the storage rooms to the rear where it could possibly drain to some kind of septic field. Not sure how sophisticated the sanitation was in ME.
Water appears to have been drawn...either from wells or stream etc.
A large rainbarrel on top of the hill would provide nice water pressure.

http://www.pumpsandsystems.com/...-finds-home-hobbiton


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 2 2015, 2:58pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 2 2015, 3:15pm

Post #5 of 15 (6435 views)
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Lavatory [In reply to] Can't Post

I've never really considered that issue. I suppose that I just assumed that there was a small washroom or nook connected to or part of the kitchen. I would not be entirely surprised if Tolkien imagined Bilbo pumping water from the well into the kitchen, but it might have been brought in manually.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 2 2015, 3:18pm)


nymmerod
The Shire


Sep 2 2015, 3:34pm

Post #6 of 15 (6425 views)
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In my Lego MOC... [In reply to] Can't Post

I placed the step between the east hall and parlour so that only the parlour was lower down. I can't recall if that is ever clearly shown in the films/AUJ dvd menu tour. I scoured the films for details when I started my MOC.

In regards to the toilet issue, I placed a small washroom inside the empty space between the parlour and east hall.

pics in link for the curious:
http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=96226

http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=96226


Brandybuckled
Lorien


Sep 2 2015, 3:44pm

Post #7 of 15 (6415 views)
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That's pretty darn cool. [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you for sharing that.Cool

NAArP: Not An Ardent purist since Arda was dented



CamdenMcAndrews
Rivendell


Sep 3 2015, 12:51am

Post #8 of 15 (6300 views)
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I put the loo in the back [In reply to] Can't Post

Now we find out if I can figure out how to post an image here by hosting it on one of my own web servers.



Bag-End in Second Life, September 2, 2015


I decided to put the loo back here in the "Back Room" on the Weta floor plan. It seemed a logical location, away from the food and living areas, where I could wall off a room about the right size to provide some privacy.


As you can see, my whole build is laid out on a blowup of the Weta floor plan. I think I got it pretty close to scale, where an average Second Life avatar would be about the same height as Bilbo relative to the build. Maybe I should have built this with Legos instead! At least then I wouldn't have to create a 3D model of every fiddly bit. (That's my SL avatar in the picture. The blonde lady is Crystal, who just joined this forum, btw.)


I'm not seeing much empty space between the Parlour and the East Hall. There is a short hallway there, but it's important to our purposes because it all started with wanting to figure out where scenes in the movie were shot, and that little hallway plays an important role in "The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey." I though the step down to the Parlour level might be at one end of that hall or the other, but in the films and production photos, it appears to be level all the way. Maybe that hallway has a slight slope.


CamdenMcAndrews
Rivendell


Sep 3 2015, 1:34am

Post #9 of 15 (6295 views)
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Bag-End SL Build Images on Photobucket [In reply to] Can't Post

I wasn't really happy with that little image, so I thought I'd create a Photobucket account and see if that makes it easier to see details.


The Loo in the Back Room
This is the full-size version of the little image posted above.


The Parlour Looking Into the Dining Room
This is where it all started, with "Where the heck did they shoot that scene?" The scene in question is the one shown on the little screen shot over Crystal's head, where Bilbo was snooping around Bag-End to see if the dwarves were still there. He's in the Parlour, peering into the Dining Room. It's clear from the film that there is not a step there, although currently in the build the Dining Room floor is elevated above the level of the Parlour Floor.


I put a lot of screen shots from the films over the spots where I was trying to figure out that geometry for how they build Bag-End for the movie.


The Step Down Into the Parlour
We're in the Parlour here, and Crystal is standing in the short hall that connects the Entry Hall to the Parlour. You can see the step down there. There's another step up to the Kitchen floor on the westish side of the Parlour.


The chair is one that I built for our Industrial Victorian era house quite some time ago; just a stand-in for Bilbo's armchair. (In fact, nearly all the furniture currently in Bag-End is just stuff I'd already made for something else.)


CamdenMcAndrews
Rivendell


Sep 3 2015, 1:59am

Post #10 of 15 (6282 views)
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Bag-End SL Oak Hall [In reply to] Can't Post

Bag-End Oak Hall
Here, the camera is looking southwest from the Oak Hall. Crystal is standing in the Entry, and I'm standing (next to a seated weeble of Balin, and the blue-and-tan weeble is Thorin) in the East Hall. The step down from the Entry to the Oak Hall isn't really there; I just haven't built floors for the main hallway yet.


Perusing through all the films and screen shots I can find, I don't see a step anywhere in the hallway, which would mean that either all that area is on the same level as the Entry. But that would include the little hallway into the Parlour, which is level with both the hallway and the Parlour. That might explain why I'm so confusticated and bebothered by this silly conundrum.


Lindelorne
Registered User

Sep 7 2015, 12:53pm

Post #11 of 15 (6086 views)
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Maybe the floor isn't level ... [In reply to] Can't Post

Even in a properly built house the floors aren't always level and bag end may be a very nice hole in the ground but it is still a hole in the ground. It's entirely possible that when it was first dug they didn't create a level hallway but one that gradually tapered down or up so that the hallway is always on level with the doorway to each room.

Or maybe the little hallway from the entry into the parlour is the part that isn't level and gradually tapers down/up rather than have a step.


CamdenMcAndrews
Rivendell


Sep 8 2015, 5:05am

Post #12 of 15 (6045 views)
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Trying to Understand the Actual Movie Set [In reply to] Can't Post

I think we split off into two topics. One is whether the hobbits could build a floor that was flat enough not to require steps, and the other (what I'm really wondering about) is how they build the movie set.


Hobbits were great craftsmen, so I'm pretty confident that their floors would be at least level enough that you didn't notice any slope that wasn't supposed to be there. Tolkien does emphasize that smials were built without interior steps; no walking up and down staircases for our little creatures of comfort.


The actual movie set of the interior of Bag-End was built on a flat concrete floor, so I'm pretty sure that the step down into the parlour was an intentional bit of decorative design. Looks good to my eye. But the conundrum is this: There are three entrances to the Parlour. Two of those entrances clearly have steps down. But the third entrance, the short passage from the East hall, does not have a step that I can see by looking at the films.


I think to really answer that for sure, someone would have to have seen the actual set as it was built in Wellington.


The only reason it's a significant issue is that my build in Second Life is at a standstill until I decide what level the floors will be. Just as in real life, everything is built up from the floor.


Lindelorne
Registered User

Sep 9 2015, 1:20pm

Post #13 of 15 (6003 views)
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Whether it be the movie set or actual bag end the floors are equally capable of not being level [In reply to] Can't Post

The movie set for Bag End may have been on a flat concrete floor but obviously they built some of the rooms at a higher level than the parlour otherwise the steps down into the parlour wouldn't be needed. It's not impossible for the passage from the parlour without steps to have been built on a gentle barely noticeable incline.


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Sep 9 2015, 2:20pm

Post #14 of 15 (6001 views)
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Where did you get so much Lego from? [In reply to] Can't Post

Would love to do something like this. Have you seen this Erebor one? http://newboards.theonering.net/...orum_view_collapsed;


CamdenMcAndrews
Rivendell


Sep 10 2015, 7:39am

Post #15 of 15 (5984 views)
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I never could get the hang of Erebor [In reply to] Can't Post

Indeed, that Lego model of Erebor is amazing. I never did get my head around the architecture of Erebor; there just isn't enough information in the films to understand what they were thinking for the overall plan of the place.


Maybe that's why Bag-End is so appealing. Weta did publish a floor plan of the place that's almost exactly as they built the movie set. The only differences I've seen:


(1) The door the smoking room is in the East Hall instead of the Oak Hall.


(2) We get a glimpse of the east end of the Oak Hall in the menu scenes of the extended edition of The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey, which seems to be truncated instead of going on to pick up that extra room.


(3) It appears that they didn't actually build the back door or any of the stuff beyond Bilbo's bedroom.


(4) It looks like the movie set pantry is more rectangular than the 4-lobed pantry shown in the floor plan. (In the text, Tolkien tells us that Bilbo had four pantries. I suspect that's what John Howe was trying to show, but the Weta guys didn't pick up on it.)



Meanwhile, back at that pesky floor: Lacking any authoritative knowledge on how they built the movie set, I'm inclined to proceed with assuming that hallway from the Parlour to the Atrium slopes, knowing full well that if I ever do hear from someone who has actually seen the movie set, I'll end up tearing it all down and rebuilding it. Maybe little Bilbo had fun rolling marbles down into the Parlour.

 
 

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