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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 1 2015, 10:12pm
Post #1 of 7
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A couple of questions on timing : The Witch King's identity and Gandalf's learning about "a" ring
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A couple of points have cropped up, about which I wonder if anyone has any helpful quotes or references ...
The first is when (and how) was the Witch King identified as a Nazgul?
The second is whether we know when Gandalf learned that Bilbo had found a ring in the goblin tunnels. I came across a reference to Gandalf setting a watch for Gollum, which I think logically demonstrates that this must have occurred before TA 2944 but wondered if anything pins it down more definitely?
Any views gratefully received!
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 1 2015, 10:42pm
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Well, Bilbo revealed the existence of his ring to Thorin and Company in Mirkwood, so Gandalf could have learned about it as early as during the days following the Battle of Five Armies before he and Bilbo left to return to the Shire. Bilbo could have told him the same story that he he told the Dwarves during their journey to Beorn's house or anytime during that winter or the following spring. I doubt that it was later than that. Of course I'm only guessing.
I am not even going to attempt an answer to your Witch-king question at this time.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Sep 8 2015, 9:16am
Post #3 of 7
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Reasons I can't answer the Witch King Question
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I tried to answer the Witch King question & found I got stuck as follows (in case anyone is interested, or is helped at all y my ponderings):
I don't know whether the Men who received Rings of Power kept that secret, or whether it was widely known from the first who the 9 recipients were.
I don't know whether the 9 owners of rings were called Nazgul immediately (e.g. it initially just meant someone who had one of those rings) or whether you also have to 'fade' to be considered a Nazgul.
Those factors make the difference between whether the Witch King was being called a Nazgul from the year in which he was issued a Ring, or whether it took time for the rings to make Men into Nazgul, and then for the existence of Nazgul to become widely known, and then for someone to figure out which men had become Nazgul..
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Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Sep 8 2015, 9:17am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 8 2015, 1:41pm
Post #4 of 7
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I don't know whether the 9 owners of rings were called Nazgul immediately (e.g. it initially just meant someone who had one of those rings) or whether you also have to 'fade' to be considered a Nazgul.
Well, Nazgūl is a Black Speech word that translates as Ringwraith. Tolkien seems to have borrowed gūl from the Arabic ghūl which can be translated as demon and from which we derive the English word ghoul. I don't think it ever had the meaning of man as did the word wight. So, it is probably safe to say that the Nine were not known as Nazgūl until about SA 2250 when they appeared in their 'undead' state.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Sep 8 2015, 2:45pm
Post #5 of 7
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Thanks: so that gives us an earliest date ~SA 2250 + the time required to work out who that wraith used to be //
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~~~~~~
Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 8 2015, 3:08pm
Post #6 of 7
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The Lord of the Nazgūl founded Angmar around TA 1300 and the kingdom lasted for nearly 700 years. It might be that the Wise guessed at the Witch-king's identity once it was clear that he could not be a mortal man. On the other hand, he might have been any of the Nine and I'm not sure how anyone would have narrowed it down further except, perhaps, for his skill as a strategist.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 8 2015, 3:10pm)
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Omnigeek
Lorien
Oct 18 2015, 4:20pm
Post #7 of 7
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A couple of points have cropped up, about which I wonder if anyone has any helpful quotes or references ...
...
The second is whether we know when Gandalf learned that Bilbo had found a ring in the goblin tunnels. I came across a reference to Gandalf setting a watch for Gollum, which I think logically demonstrates that this must have occurred before TA 2944 but wondered if anything pins it down more definitely?
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