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shaundobson
Rivendell
Aug 30 2015, 5:32pm
Post #1 of 47
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Visualization Of Locations
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A significant factor in my complaints of this trilogy is that fact that I don't think they got the right visuals for the locations that were shown. Some were good and were just what I had imagined for years however others were disappointing.
Gundabad: I know this was only shown for a few minutes but I feel they got this wrong. The one shown in BOFA seems like a kinda 'Mordor Version 2' to me. I always imagined Gundabad to being a very snowy mountainous area where Gundabad was built into the mountain. Seeing some official drawings made by artists portraying Gundabad as a very snowy, mountainous region looked much better to me.
Goblin Town: AUJ interpretation didn't seem right, it was too bright and just to 'open' for my liking. Correct me if im wrong but Goblin Town was considerably smaller than Moria so I was hoping for a more enclosed, gritty setting for Goblin Town.
Mirkwood: Again, just too bright again. Wasn't Mirkwood supposed to be practically pitch black? Especially the enchanted river scene of DOS that was very bright and ruined by imagination of that scene from the book.
Ravenhill: Where did all the ice come from ? Erebor/ Dale is right next to the place and theres no sight of any considerable snow/ice to be seen in them places? I don't understand this.
Locations I did like however were Dol Guldur, LakeTown (couldn't really get that wrong), Dale, Gollum's Cave and Beorns home. These locations had the right combination of practical and cgi effects.
(This post was edited by shaundobson on Aug 30 2015, 5:37pm)
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Aug 30 2015, 5:46pm
Post #2 of 47
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There is a waterfall at Ravenhill thats way it is Ice there. And look at the river at the gate of Erabor before they smash the bridge with the statue and there is ice as well.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Aug 30 2015, 5:46pm
Post #3 of 47
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I have to say that I rather like the locations (Goblin Town, for instance, reminded me of illustrations from Victorian fairytales, and I think it was very well done and one of the best locations in the films). One that didn't work all that well for me was Mirkwood, because I felt that it looked a bit like a studio rather than a real forest (perhaps because I'd watched footage of the 'forest' being constructed!).
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 30 2015, 6:00pm
Post #4 of 47
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Gundabad was also completely mischaracterized in terms of Tolkien's canon. Tolkien, as far as I am aware, never made any connection between Gundabad and the Kingdom of Angmar. This was entirely an invention of Peter Jackson and his team, much like the High Fells.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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DainPig
Gondor
Aug 30 2015, 6:19pm
Post #5 of 47
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pitch back mirkwood? how would this work??? How could the audience see anything?
How aaaaaaaaaaaaaare you all???
Hey guys, my blog is: dainpigblog.blogspot.com
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balbo biggins
Rohan
Aug 30 2015, 8:38pm
Post #6 of 47
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agree on a few points,
goblin town was more like goblin city. in my mind its always been small size tunnels with caves no more than a few people high, somewere appropriate where squalid dirty goblins would live, much darker, as gobllins would prefer it!
mirkwood, although it did look pretty cool , its the opposite of what i had in mind, if youve ever been in a pine forest its bewilderingly confusing as the straight tall trunks all uniformly sitting in rows (naturally occuring) make losing your sense of place so much easier, it was the tolkien illustration too that put this in my mind.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 30 2015, 8:39pm
Post #7 of 47
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The relatively bright lighting in Mirkwood didn't bother me half as much as it did in the tunnels beneath Goblin Town. It was so bright that the audience seems to have trouble understanding that although they could clearly see the Ring drop from Gollum's side, Bilbo would not have been able to see it.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 30 2015, 8:50pm
Post #8 of 47
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The longer versions of the tale of years in HOME make explicit the direct and directive links between Sauron and the orcs of the Misty Mountains (which are hinted at in LOTR/TH). LOTR, meanwhile, makes explicit Sauron's desire to retake Angmar in connection to the events of TH. Whilst not explicitly stated, it would be fairly odd for Sauron not to link the two or for the reader not to picture such a link, I think.
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shaundobson
Rivendell
Aug 30 2015, 8:55pm
Post #9 of 47
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well not totally pitch black...
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but enough darkness to show the audience that they are in the middle of a dense evil forest where light is hard to come by.
I have never read the Hobbit in a while but I remember something about the dwarves only being able to see the lights of the elves through the forest as the rest of the forest was darkness. I didn't really get this sense of 'dark' as the film portrayed.
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shaundobson
Rivendell
Aug 30 2015, 9:09pm
Post #10 of 47
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I think filming in a real forest could have helped with Mirkwood, especially a lot of their walking scenes. However you wouldn't really get all the funky landscapes, alien plants and trails that would have been needed to show a fantasy landscape.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 30 2015, 9:12pm
Post #11 of 47
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Spriggan, your knowledge of this seems to be much more extensive than mine. I have not read many of the HOME volumes and don't have a copy of Tolkien's extended Tale of Years. At the same time, the focus of control of Gundabad seems to have been mainly between the Orcs and the Dwarves. In Tolkien's legendarium the Wood-elves do not seem to have dealt much with either Gundabad or Angmar (unless this is also referenced in something with which I am still unfamiliar).
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Aug 30 2015, 9:36pm
Post #12 of 47
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If it was as dark as the book said, the audience wouldn't have seen anything. Some stories just don't translate well to film. As for Ravenhill, yeah that's probably not so likely. Many people have pointed out that the water level of the river rose from the time Bard came to the time the bell broke down the wall, and yes it was flowing water. The waterfall was much higher, but I don't know if it was high enough to account for that, then again only the surface was frozen. Still, it's probably my favorite fight scene in BOT5A, and I thought the frozen waterfall was pretty.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Bishop
Gondor
Aug 30 2015, 9:47pm
Post #13 of 47
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There are ways to shoot real locations
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And then enhance them with CGI to excellent effect. While I don't think it's a great film, scenes like this one from Snow White and the Huntsman demonstrate how real locations simply read better IMO. I think the design of many of the locations in TH were truly wonderous. But the lack of real locations with real light is was extremely detrimental to my experience of the films. While greenscreen/bluescreen technology is pretty strong, I don't believe it's good enough to cover vast swaths of locations and events, especially outdoor locations; almost the entire BOTFA takes place in a CGI location. There are amazing examples of CGI enhanced real locations, and they are very effective. But they are rare. This one comes to mind.
(This post was edited by Bishop on Aug 30 2015, 9:48pm)
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Aug 30 2015, 11:38pm
Post #14 of 47
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I think filming in a real forest could have helped with Mirkwood, especially a lot of their walking scenes. However you wouldn't really get all the funky landscapes, alien plants and trails that would have been needed to show a fantasy landscape.
One other thing I forgot to mention was that I thought the Mirkwood forest looked much too blue and fake (to me). It really did feel like the confined space of a studio set, and I too think that the idea of filming in a real forest – even if some CGI had been added to the scenes – would have looked more real.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 31 2015, 9:33am
Post #16 of 47
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I was more making the point that there is a reasonably short leap to link Gundabad to Angmar in the context of this story.
Therefore I think link to connect the elves comes via Angmar (now, ok, that was lots of elves from Eriador but your second little leap is to add the Wood-elves to the party).
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 31 2015, 2:32pm
Post #17 of 47
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I was more making the point that there is a reasonably short leap to link Gundabad to Angmar in the context of this story.
Yes. In the context of the films, I could agree with that. As I was saying before, the connection may have been an invention of Jackson's. And it was Jackson, not myself, who connected the Wood-elves to Angmar via Legolas' words to Tauriel ("My mother died there."); although it was apparently Tolkien (LotR, Appendix A) who set Angmar's borders on both sides of the Misty Mountains, thus placing Gundabad within its influence.
'It was in the beginning of the reign of Malvegil of Arthedain that evil came to Arnor. For at that time the realm of Angmar arose in the North beyond the Ettenmoors. Its lands lay on both sides of the Mountains, and there were gathered many evil men, and Orcs, and other fell creatures.'
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 31 2015, 2:33pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 31 2015, 7:35pm
Post #18 of 47
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To be clear I think the Gundabad and Angmar connection is not explicit in the text but is a matter open to interpretation (The HOME stuff is I think really interesting, by the way e.g. "2480. onwards Orcs again multiply in secret and occupy many deep places (especially those anciently made by the Dwarves) in the Misty Mountains. They do this so stealthily that none are aware of it, until they have great forces hidden and are ready to bar all the passes from Eriador into Anduin's vales, according to the plan of their master in Dol Guldur. Orcs and Trolls occupy parts of the now empty Mines of Moria." .........Final draft of the Tale of Years, History of Middle Earth.)
The Wood-elf / Angmar link is invention, as far as we can see, but a fairly sensible one I think. Elves from several different places around Eriador were gathered together to face Angmar - it doesn't seem particularly odd to imagine Mirkwood could join in (though the the texts suggest otherwise).
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 31 2015, 7:55pm
Post #19 of 47
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Gundabad in Tolkien's legendarium definitely seems as though it would fall under Angmar's sphere of influence even if it wasn't directly under the Witch-king's control. Sticking with the Professor's canon, the Elves who took part in the downfall of Angmar were from Rivendell and Lindon; I doubt that Thranduil in the Third Age would have wanted to get involved in a conflict where he would have to ally with Noldor-elves. He might have still carried much bitterness over the death of his father.
On a related note, why wouldn't Tauriel already know about Angmar? Elrond's words to the White Council in Rivendell seems to link the fall of Angmar with the 400 years of 'watchful peace' that the North had been enjoying (altered signicantly from the year Tolkien gives of TA 1975). Tauriel is over 600 years old. Surely she should have at least been aware of the kingdom of Angmar and its status as a enemy of the Woodland Realm? The fate of his mother notwithstanding, Legolas shouldn't be telling her anything that she didn't already know.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 31 2015, 7:56pm)
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shaundobson
Rivendell
Aug 31 2015, 8:10pm
Post #20 of 47
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Relating to the first paragraph. Did the silvan elves not have good terms with their western peers? I would have thought Thranduil, being an elf, would have rushed to ally with the western elves in an event of an attack?
Secoondly, Simple answer could be that I don't think they spent enough time in these things, most tauriel/legolas scenes seemed rushed so that's why Tauriel seems to have no clue about Angmar or Gundabad in the movie, even though in the films lore she should have enough education of these places, given her age.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 31 2015, 8:17pm
Post #21 of 47
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Equally Thranduil might sensibly have perceived the threat of Angmar pretty close to his borders.
I don't think we know enough on the second question. We don't know that Elrond refers to Angmar with his 400 years comment - he could just as easily be referring to orc raids from the mountains (or anything else for that matter!).
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 31 2015, 8:20pm
Post #22 of 47
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The Woodland Realm and other Elves
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I'm not sure how the Wood-elves felt towards the Noldor in general, but I think that there was a great deal of distrust from the Sindar based on the actions of Feanor and his sons in the First Age. And weren't most (if not all) of the Wood-elves supposed to be Teleri? Even the Sindar were a branch of the Teleri. Certainly they would have learned of the Kinslaying at Aqualonde and would have held a grudge.
I don't really know that Thranduil blamed the death of Oropher on the Noldor. His father and many of his kindred perished at the Battle of Dagorlad, but largely because they did not wait for the signal to attack. It was really Oropher's own folly that led to his death; I'm just not sure that Thranduil saw it that way.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 31 2015, 8:24pm
Post #23 of 47
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The Fall of Angmar and the Watchful Peace
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I don't think we know enough on the second question. We don't know that Elrond refers to Angmar with his 400 years comment - he could just as easily be referring to orc raids from the mountains (or anything else for that matter!).
Occam's Razor suggests that Elrond was referring to the fall and entombment of the Nine, but it isn't 100% certain. Barring more information, though, I think that the case for that interpretation is very strong. I know that we have debated this issue before. Your standards for proof are very strict, but perhaps too strict since we are discussing a fictional world in a movie series. We can't expect much in the way of empirical evidence.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 31 2015, 8:28pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 31 2015, 9:17pm
Post #24 of 47
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I think Occam cuts both ways on this one.
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If the suggested solution doesn't fit the bill (e.g. If you think it gives you an issue with Tauriel) then I don't think you can say it is a likely one.
I wouldn't say that it's a matter of empirical evidence - instead, as you say, it's contextual. If we read that "Legolas took his bow" and then that "he had no weapon" we probably have to question whether the first did indeed refer to our initial assumption or whether, in this case, he was just being polite.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 31 2015, 10:17pm
Post #25 of 47
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I interpret the paradox to poorly thought-out writing regarding Tauriel. If we take Elrond's statement only in the context of the White Council scene then is it harder to dismiss the inference that the 400 years of peace began with the entombment of the Nazgul and the Morgul-blade. It was, after all, the topic actually being discussed. The only other topics that were brought up that could be relevant were Smaug's presence in Erebor and the defeat of Sauron. The first was too too recent and the last took place far too long ago.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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