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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Aug 27 2015, 1:09pm
Post #1 of 22
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Challenging your concept of the thrush!
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I'm sure most people reading The Hobbit have a similar idea of what the thrush looks like. Not dissimilar to the one in the movie, right?
But I'm not so sure...
First the colours - most illustrations of the thrush are the same browns and whites as a typical song thrush. Much like the movie: http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/...ages/5/5a/Thrush.jpg
But Tolkien describes its plumage as "nearly coal black, its pale yellow breast freckled with dark spots". Which to me describes a Japanese thrush: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/...121c73b7b155a6c8.jpg Perhaps Tolkien wanted to evoke an Asian atmosphere before introducing the dragon?
Now the size - Japanese thrushes are not much different in size than the song thrush. But if we look at the full description in the book:
There on the grey stone in the grass was an enormous thrush, nearly coal black, its pale yellow breast freckled with dark spots.
Tolkien describes the thrush as "enormous". Now what enormous means is subjective, it could simply mean that by Earthly thrush standards it was a particularly large specimen. But to challenge this image, I put forward the idea that this is a world where eagles described as "large" are taller than men. It's very possible that the thrush was intended to be gigantic. But the why would it be eating small snails?
Here's what I'm picturing. Look at this wonderful image by Ted Nasmith: http://tednasmith.poverellomedia.com/...ThrushTedNasmith.jpg
Now imagine those snails are like this: http://www.factzoo.com/...iant-ghana-snail.jpg
I wonder if there is evidence elsewhere in the book to suggest that this is not what Tolkien had in mind when describing the thrush?
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Aug 27 2015, 1:48pm
Post #2 of 22
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Looking further, the thrush perches on Bard's shoulder...
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Which suggests it is unlikely to be bigger than a large parrot. But that's still a potentially significant size.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Aug 27 2015, 4:00pm
Post #3 of 22
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Old Thorondor of the First Age was near the size of a 747 jetliner, with a wingspan of 180 feet.
The Eagles of the Third Age were said to be somewhat smaller. (A lot I think.). But nevertheless of great size.
Not to say the thrushes and ravens of that time were anywhere near the size of the Great Eagles, but an “enormous thrush” of that time might be many times the size of today’s thrushes of which the largest seems to be the blue whistling thrush at about a foot in length.
Huan, the dog, was about the size of a horse. So we might say that in Tolkien’s Middle-earth animal size/color is relative to LONG ago, not today.
Boromir looked in surprise at Bilbo, but the laughter died on his lips when he saw that all the others regarded the old hobbit with grave respect. Only Glóin smiled, but his smile came from old memories.
-JRR Tolkien
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Darkstone
Immortal
Aug 27 2015, 5:42pm
Post #4 of 22
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We might be not able to compare the thrush to modern birds for Thorin says it may be last of an ancient breed.
(“The thrushes are good and friendly-this is a very old bird indeed, and is maybe the last left of the ancient breed that used to live about here, tame to the hands of my father and grandfather. They were a long-lived and magical race, and this might even be one of those that were alive then, a couple of hundreds years or more ago.”
-Inside Information)
As Bracegirdle says, some species of animals tended to be larger in prehistoric times.
(There were giants in the earth in those days...
-Genesis 6:4)
Of course it may simply go back to Tolkien's own tendency to ambiguity in description, so the thrush merely *seems* enormous to short little Bilbo.
Indeed, Bilbo (assuming he’s the author) also describes Roäc son of Carc as “of great size”.
(He was an aged raven of great size.
-The Gathering of the Clouds)
And then there’s the theory that the very intelligent acting thrush might well be a were-creature, which tend to be larger than normal in their animal form.
Specifically Radagast.
(“Radagast is, of course, a worthy Wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue; and he has much lore of herbs and beasts, and birds are especially his friends.”
-The Council of Elrond)
It's possible that as a "master of shapes" Radagast could be capable of shaping himself into a thrush, grow to seem enormous to a hobbit, then shrink to be able to perch on a Man's shoulder.
Or not.
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That hobbit has a pleasant face,
His private life is a disgrace.
I really could not tell to you,
The awful things that hobbits do.
Things that your paper never prints
They only speak of them in hints.
They have such lost, degraded souls,
No wonder they inhabit holes;
When such depravity is found,
It only can live underground.
I really dare not name to you,
The awful things that hobbits do.
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Aug 27 2015, 5:51pm)
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Aug 28 2015, 1:21am
Post #5 of 22
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This is great, thanks for the info!
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I love the creatures of Middle-earth, especially the birds - Roac was one of my favourite parts in the movie, even if he didn't speak.
But I love the idea that, when reading, we all have a different take on how things look and none of us are necessarily wrong. As you say, there could be no modern comparison to the ancient species in the book, so it could really look like anything. Of course, the word "thrush" does imply a specific shape and size, but I enjoy challenging the natural images in my mind and wonder what it is Tolkien imagined when writing.
Ted Nasmith is my favourite illustrator, because he tends to really stick to the descriptions literally. For example he's the only artist I've seen that has painted Minas Tirith with the black outer-wall, as described in the book. Most artists ignore this and do it white. And that image of the thrush is... slightly creepy... but I find it really interesting, because it's quite different from the typical thrush.
(This post was edited by QuackingTroll on Aug 28 2015, 1:23am)
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balbo biggins
Rohan
Aug 29 2015, 10:53am
Post #6 of 22
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he indeed does speak, well a crow does, when it flies onto the ramparts to thorin just before dain arrives, he makes some sounds that seem to be communicating with thorin, more than just a squawk. thorin clearly understand what the message is anyway!
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Aug 29 2015, 12:11pm
Post #7 of 22
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From the text - The Gathering of Clouds begins:
"O Thorin son of Thrain, and Balin son of Fundn, . . . I am Roac . . ."
Boromir looked in surprise at Bilbo, but the laughter died on his lips when he saw that all the others regarded the old hobbit with grave respect. Only Glóin smiled, but his smile came from old memories.
-JRR Tolkien
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 29 2015, 6:54pm
Post #8 of 22
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I believe that balbo is writing specifically of Peter Jackson's TH:BotFA, not Tolkien's book. There does seem to be communication taking place, but it seems to be more like the crows that the Dwarves could understand in their own bird-tongue rather than the ravens of Erebor speaking in Westron as in the book.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Aug 29 2015, 9:51pm
Post #9 of 22
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He didn't speak like a raven, though
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https://youtu.be/rIX_6TBeph0
In the book of course, he speaks in common tongue fluently. Not that I'm complaining. Like I said, I loved his appearance in the movie.
(This post was edited by QuackingTroll on Aug 29 2015, 9:55pm)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Aug 30 2015, 3:54am
Post #10 of 22
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I believe that balbo is writing specifically of Peter Jackson's TH:BotFA, not Tolkien's book. There does seem to be communication taking place, but it seems to be more like the crows that the Dwarves could understand in their own bird-tongue rather than the ravens of Erebor speaking in Westron as in the book. I assumed this being the 'Reading Room' we were (or should be?) talking of the books. . .
Boromir looked in surprise at Bilbo, but the laughter died on his lips when he saw that all the others regarded the old hobbit with grave respect. Only Glóin smiled, but his smile came from old memories.
-JRR Tolkien
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 30 2015, 4:02am
Post #11 of 22
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I assumed this being the 'Reading Room' we were (or should be?) talking of the books. . .
One might assume that, but balbo's post seems to reference the scene from TH:BotFA.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 30 2015, 4:03am)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Aug 31 2015, 3:51pm
Post #12 of 22
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I assumed this being the 'Reading Room' we were (or should be?) talking of the books. . .
We’ve had full-blown weekly/monthly/longer discussion series on Tolkien inspired art (Hildebrandt, Alan Lee, etc), Tolkien inspired parody (Bored of the Ring), Tolkien inspired criticism (Brian Rosebury´s Tolkien - A Cultural Phenomenon, Steve Walker’s The Power of Tolkien’s Prose,etc.), and so on. (I myself did a full week’s discussion of cat poetry by TS Eliot, William Blake, Carl Sandburg, etc.) Plus there’s been one-offs on Beowulf, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Shakespeare, and lots of other non-book stuff.
So the discussion of a Tolkien inspired film is not inappropriate to The Reading Room.
(BTW, it's always best to carefully read a post before responding otherwise one might reply to a discussion about Plato and LOTR with a question like "What the heck does Tolkien have to do with Micky Mouse's dog???" )
******************************************
"We’re orcs of the Misty Mountains,
Our singing’s part of canon.
We do routines and chorus scenes
While dancing with abandon.
We killed Isildur in the Gladden,
To help Sauron bring Armageddon!"
-From "Monty Python and the One Ring"
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Aug 31 2015, 5:58pm
Post #13 of 22
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...the very excellent discussion of Beowulf was in Off Topic.
The Jackson films appear in the Reading Room mostly in discussions of differences or similarities. In a number of chapter discussions I've led I've used stills from the films where they were appropriate.
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Meneldor
Valinor
Aug 31 2015, 6:04pm
Post #14 of 22
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Is that a European thrush or an African thrush? //
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They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 31 2015, 6:18pm
Post #15 of 22
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Is that a European thrush or an African thrush?
It is a medium-sized to largish Rhovanion thrush, a non-migratory songbird of Middle-earth found primarily in the vales of the Anduin River and the lands adjacent to the eaves of Northern Mirkwood. There is no documented instance of a Rhovanion thrush carrying a coconut (which is tropical and also non-migratory).
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 31 2015, 6:21pm)
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Meneldor
Valinor
Aug 31 2015, 6:24pm
Post #16 of 22
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AAAAAaaaaahhhhh.....
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 31 2015, 6:27pm
Post #17 of 22
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Yet another victim of the Gorge of Eternal Peril.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Sep 1 2015, 12:36am
Post #18 of 22
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The discussion of a Tolkien inspired film
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should not be an OP in The Reading Room IMO.
Yes, it may morph into book/film comparison comments, and more and more often it does.
Yet it saddens me somewhat that a larger and larger portion of TORn is taken up with movie comments, and leaves JRRT in the lurch. 
My comment was certainly not an accurate answer to the question, but just using The Reading Room textually.
Thus when I see a chance I am quick (perhaps occasionally aggravatingly) to insert a textual comment in an attempt to converse about what is important to me personally: JRRT - not PJ.
BTW, it's always best to carefully read a post before responding Oh yes, I knew from whence Balbo came . . .
And, Ok, I guess I deserved a little patronizing . . . 
Boromir looked in surprise at Bilbo, but the laughter died on his lips when he saw that all the others regarded the old hobbit with grave respect. Only Glóin smiled, but his smile came from old memories.
-JRR Tolkien
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 1 2015, 1:33am
Post #19 of 22
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The thread did actually begin as a discussion of the thrush from the book. Yes, the films were mentioned, but they were not the OP's focus.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Sep 1 2015, 2:14am
Post #20 of 22
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Just a general RR observation
Boromir looked in surprise at Bilbo, but the laughter died on his lips when he saw that all the others regarded the old hobbit with grave respect. Only Glóin smiled, but his smile came from old memories.
-JRR Tolkien
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 1 2015, 11:55am
Post #21 of 22
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Even so, comparisons between the books and various adaptations do get made. Such threads might still be appropriate to the Reading Room (on a case-by-case basis?).
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Sep 12 2015, 3:51pm
Post #22 of 22
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..one ginormous snail...
we tend to forget that those big conch and whelk shells we get at the shore are also snails...
snails are not wimpy little things!
bigger on the inside...
Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
Member of Manure Movers Local 101, Raptor Wranglers & Rehab, and Night Fury Trainers Assoc. Owned by several cats and a very small team of maniacal sled dogs... sorry Radagast, those rabbits were delicious...
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