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Laineth
Lorien
Aug 28 2015, 1:05am
Post #26 of 32
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mistaken. I had thought that the orcs had hidden in the Northern Waste, and attacked from that direction. I went searching, but couldn't find any quotes - only Tolkien Gateway said it, which must be what I was thinking of. You're welcome!
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Laineth
Lorien
Aug 28 2015, 1:25am
Post #28 of 32
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it still doesn't make complete sense to me. If Sauron was sending his forces up from Mordor, why didn't he ever attack Lórien or the Greenwood? He only attacked Eriador and the Mount Gundabad/Grey Mountains area. Also, there's another text (published in UT App B) which says: "Thranduil retreated before it as it spread ever northward, until at last Thranduil established his realm in the north-east of the forest and delved there a fortress and great halls underground." Thranduil couldn't do that if Oropher had already gotten them in the north part of the forest.
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Eldy
Tol Eressea
Aug 28 2015, 4:58am
Post #29 of 32
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it still doesn't make complete sense to me. If Sauron was sending his forces up from Mordor, why didn't he ever attack Lórien or the Greenwood? He only attacked Eriador and the Mount Gundabad/Grey Mountains area. Probably because he had limited troops available and they weren't a priority? Khazad-dum was friendly with Eregion and helped refugees from that realm, and the Dwarves in general were intimately connected with (and supplied with foodstuffs by) local Northmen societies, so both of those would be relatively high on the list of targets. But with limited resources and troops already spread thin over multiple fronts, Sauron had to prioritize. UT touches on this in the Galadriel and Celeborn chapter:
Sauron withdrew the pursuit of Elrond and turned upon the Dwarves and the Elves of Lorinand, whom he drove back; but the Gates of Moria were shut, and he could not enter. Ever afterwards Moria had Sauron's hate, and all Orcs were commanded to harry Dwarves whenever they might. But now Sauron attempted to gain the mastery of Eriador: Lorinand could wait. It's also worth noting that Khazad-dum was one of the major powers of the Second Age while Lorien and Greenwood were relative backwaters. (Note that in the passage the above quote comes from Galadriel and Celeborn had ruled Eregion for much of the Second Age and had little to do with Lorien before this point; however there is as we all know no truly canonical version of what Galadriel was up to during the Second Age.)
Also, there's another text (published in UT App B) which says: "Thranduil retreated before it as it spread ever northward, until at last Thranduil established his realm in the north-east of the forest and delved there a fortress and great halls underground." Thranduil couldn't do that if Oropher had already gotten them in the north part of the forest. Note 14 state that at the end of the Second Age Oropher "dwelt in the western glens of the Emyn Duir", later known as the Mountains of Mirkwood. These mountains are definitely in the northern half of the forest but they're still a good way south of Thranduil's halls that we know from The Hobbit. So even taking note 14 on its own there has to have been at least one more migration after Oropher's death in the War of the Last Alliance to get the wood-elves where they were during TH. The Galadriel and Celeborn appendix just fills in that gap. At the end of the day though, you're never going to iron out all the oddities and inconsistencies that result from efforts (both by fans and by Christopher Tolkien) to piece together all these different unpublished fragments.
There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...
(This post was edited by Eldorion on Aug 28 2015, 4:59am)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Aug 28 2015, 12:03pm
Post #30 of 32
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... 6 foot 4 in the Second Age. Come on Eldo! Oh wait, I don't consider that strictly "canonical" either. Erm, well she went to Eregion in the Second Age anyway (The Road Goes Ever On), and then ... cough... inaudible... erm... apparently no mallorns could grow there either for some reason... then she ruled Lorien in the Third Age, with whatshisname, "Silver-something"... "tree" or "tall". Sorry, couldn't help myself. Butyouknowthatwellenoughbynow.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Aug 28 2015, 12:06pm)
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Laineth
Lorien
Aug 31 2015, 12:24am
Post #32 of 32
(3283 views)
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is very little distance, especially for that amount of time. The western glens are almost at the Forest Gate/Elf-path. They roamed all over that area in TH. Words like "retreated before it" "spread ever northward" and "until at last" denote a large amount of time passes, and that there are many moves northward. That's simply not possible if they are already north of the mountains. It is if they had been just north of the Gladden river. Them continuing to visit Lórien until the Last Alliance matches with both realms having peace (unlike in that passage, where they stay north of the mountains). You are right that there will never a consensus on Galadriel's history, but 'Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn' can be ruled out. It contradicts LotR many times:
[cut]; but before the building of Barad-dűr many of the Sindar passed eastward, and some established realms in the forests far away, where their people were mostly Silvan Elves. - App B Later some of the Noldor went to Eregion, upon the west of the Misty Mountains, and hear to the West-gate of Moria. This they did because they learned that mithril had been discovered in Moria. [cut] Celebrimbor was Lord of Eregion and the greatest of their craftsmen; he was descended from Fëanor. - App B Also, Tolkien disregarded it before writing 'Amroth and Nimrodel' and 'The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves'. These are the texts I have been using, as they fit well with LotR. These and 'CGaC' cannot be used together.
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