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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 31 2015, 10:35pm
Post #26 of 47
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As in the example above I would say that is the last resort
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Rather than the first.
I would say that there is no particular reason to imagine that Elrond's line is seeking to reference a pertinent event, rather the dimly convey that things have been peaceful for a long time. That said the conversation also discusses trolls and Orc packs on the road.
The quote most closely refers to Sauron's defeat - and I again I don't think we are supposed to link that to the date.
I think it's worth considering that the films aren't seeking to create a Tale of Years through clues in dialogue - lines are most frequently there for an immediate impact not to link into an off screen history, I wouldn argue.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 31 2015, 11:03pm
Post #27 of 47
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And you are entitled to your opinion.
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I doubt that the two of us are ever going to see eye-to-eye on this particular issue. You don't seem to like leaps of faith--and that's fine. I'm willing to make an assumption or three that aren't necessarily fully supported by evidence.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 31 2015, 11:07pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 1 2015, 2:15pm
Post #28 of 47
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And totally the other way, of course .... but actually I've just thought of something.
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We have been looking at this from an audience viewpoint but if we think about it from a character viewpoint I think it gives us an additional angle. The line occurs in the same scene as the reference to the WK but (and I am only just thinking about it now) but it occurs before the reference to the WK. It would seem something of a co-incidence for Elrond to think to reference the WK only for Gandalf to independently bring up surprise evidence about him a couple of minutes later. Potentially, it is also odd that Gandalf would not respond to the reference, given that he knows he has such evidence.
Now it's not impossible that Elrond would hear "enemy", think (correctly) that Gandalf means Sauron, then silently shift to discussing the WK, but it would be a heck of guess that such a shift was about to become pertinent in a few minutes time. Mind you he does have the gift of foresight......
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 1 2015, 2:38pm
Post #29 of 47
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The discussion doesn't shift to Angmar until after Gandalf brings out the blade. Of course, when these guys talk about 'The Enemy' they always mean Sauron (sometimes collectively including his servants) unless they are referring to Melkor in the First Age. However, we know that the Last Alliance of Elves and Men and the defeat of Sauron took place almost 3000 years before the events of this movie. It can easily be dismissed as the source for the 400 years of peace. Likewise the appearance of Smaug was no more than 150 years earlier in the background of the films, and some might say as late as 60 years before (although it was certainly before TA 2799 if we accept that year for the Battle of Moria). The Rings of Power are only discussed at length in the extended edition if I remember correctly.
So again, if we limit the possibilities to what is actually mentioned at the meeting of the White Council then the start of the period of peace must be the fall of the Witch-king (unless I am overlooking something I failed to mention above). I do understand if you are unwilling to accept such a limit.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 1 2015, 2:42pm)
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Arannir
Valinor
Sep 1 2015, 2:47pm
Post #30 of 47
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I could see this having been clearer in the earlier 2 movie script.
As far as we know, Gandalf would have seen the empty Nazgul tombs by then and might have brought up the Nine and the Witch-king (and his last "appearance" - however that would have looked like in the movieverse - 400 years before) in a more explicit way during the Council.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Sep 1 2015, 2:50pm)
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Arannir
Valinor
Sep 1 2015, 2:59pm
Post #31 of 47
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Great example for good real location + CGI
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I had hoped the battlefield would look similar to that... I was mistaken 
Most locations I loved in TH... Esgaroth, Dale and Beorn's House being the absolute highlights.
I also think that Mirkwood, Goblin-town and the interior of Erebor felt way too bright and not gritty or gloomy enough.
And as mentioned above, I was rather disappointed by the look of the battlefield in BotFA (including sections of Ravenhill). It totally lacked the immersive and real feeling of the Pelennor or Helm's Deep (exception: several shots in Dale) - not to mention Amon Hen.
Several times I thought "Great what they can do... but it is just not really there, yet".
I know that there are plenty of such shots in LotR. However, I felt that many of them were simply shorter... one couldn't look at them as long as for some of TH ones... and there were fewer real shots in between this time around. That is what made the difference, not so much the quality of the CGI per se.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Sep 1 2015, 3:02pm)
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Sep 1 2015, 3:21pm
Post #32 of 47
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In the two film script Gandalf goes to the Nazgul tombs after the white council scene and when Gandalf is there the company is on it way to the Misty mountains.
(This post was edited by Smaug the iron on Sep 1 2015, 3:21pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 1 2015, 4:48pm
Post #33 of 47
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I don't think that limit is obvious to me. Mind you, if you did want that limit I'm not sure why large scale Orc and Troll activity isn't an alternative, since that is also mentioned in the sequence (indeed this is Gandalf's direct response to the mention).
I agree that there isn't any mystery in Elrond taking the word "enemy" to mean Sauron. It's more that it seems odd that Elrond should then, without prompt, silently shift his subject to the WK, when the contextual reference hasn't happened yet. Or at least it seems odd that we would feel very sure that this coincidence is 99% probable.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 1 2015, 4:51pm
Post #34 of 47
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Yes I think you may be misremembering
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The tomb visit was going to happen whilst the dwarves were in the goblin tunnels - always after Rivendell.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 1 2015, 6:19pm
Post #35 of 47
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I don't think that limit is obvious to me. Mind you, if you did want that limit I'm not sure why large scale Orc and Troll activity isn't an alternative, since that is also mentioned in the sequence (indeed this is Gandalf's direct response to the mention).
But Gandalf was speaking of Orcs and Trolls in the present time ("Are we at peace?"), not the distant past, so that interpretation does not hold water.. The Witch-king doesn't specifically come up until after Gandalf brings out the Morgul-knife.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 1 2015, 6:21pm
Post #36 of 47
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I could see this having been clearer in the earlier 2 movie script.
As far as we know, Gandalf would have seen the empty Nazgul tombs by then and might have brought up the Nine and the Witch-king (and his last "appearance" - however that would have looked like in the movieverse - 400 years before) in a more explicit way during the Council.
No, even then Gandalf would not have visited the High Fells until after the Company left Rivendell and the meeting of the White Council. He would still only have had the Morgal-blade given to him by Radagast.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 1 2015, 7:27pm
Post #37 of 47
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I think that's mixing up two ideas.
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Sorry, I wasn't suggesting that Gandalf was deliberately defining the pre-400 years. You were suggesting that, from an audience standpoint, it needed to reference something mentioned in the same scene - troll and orcs are brought to mind for the audience. The pre-peace situation of the WK isn't discussed any more, by the way, only picking up after his "fall".
I don't think we can assume that there would be any character reason to have to define the 400 years - no one present is suggested to be puzzled by the comment.
Now, that said, from a character standpoint, Gandalf's comment could be said to more probable sequitur if it were orcs and trolls - but that's by the by.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 1 2015, 7:52pm
Post #38 of 47
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Book-readers might be at a disadvantage here.
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I state the above because people familiar with Tolkien's legendarium know that his Watchful Peace is very different from Peter Jackson's Watchful Peace. In the books (as I'm sure you are aware) the Watchful Peace began in TA 2063 when Gandalf the Grey first investigated Dol Guldur and Sauron fled into the East to avoid detection. The period ended approximately 400 years later in 2460, when Sauron returned to Southern Mirkwood.
Jackson's Watchful Peace is completely different and began around 400 years before Thorin's quest. The fact that it has a completely different origin begs speculation as to its nature. The fall of Angmar and imprisonment of the Ringwraiths (right or wrong) provides a dramatic explanation for it that works in the context of the films.
As for the Tauriel issue, the Wood-elves might have fought Angmar several centuries before the its actual fall and before Tauriel was born. That might explain her ignorance about it and about the death of Legolas' mother. This is speculation, but sometimes that is all that we have.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 1 2015, 7:57pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 1 2015, 8:04pm
Post #39 of 47
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As I say, whilst there is no question that it provides an explanation, but not the only explanation. We also don't know if an explanation is offered at all.
Though I should say, I'm not sure if it does "beg" speculation as I suspect it's purpose is rather different than the comparative timeline notes from the Tale of Years. I would be dubious that the clues in the films dialogue necessarily connect into a complete jigsaw of background history.
On a vaguely connected note, I can't remember and you might know, do we ever actually find out in the text when folks realised the Witch King was in fact a Nazgul?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 1 2015, 8:13pm
Post #40 of 47
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I can't remember and you might know, do we ever actually find out in the text when folks realised the Witch King was in fact a Nazgul?
I'm going to tentatively say 'yes', but don't hold me to that. The information might be there if we are paying close attention.
As a book-firster, I at least feel a desire to speculate on Jacksons' 400 years of peace. That's fine if you don't feel the same thing.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 1 2015, 8:15pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 1 2015, 8:27pm
Post #41 of 47
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I just can't recall and tend to have a decent memory for such things. We are told that no-one knew his true identity when the WK arose and it was only discovered "much later" but I can't think of when or how. The fact that he was still wearing a mask at the time of his defeat in the North might suggest not even then. Clearly they do know by the time of LOTR but I'm not sure if we actually find out the timing of the discovery.
And sure, of course. But that is a different thing from the film asking or requiring that we speculate. It might just be there as a way of saying "a long time".
It does happen in the text too - we might well speculate as to what Gandalf was up to for all those years between DG visits but I don't think there are clues hidden in the surrounding paragraphs!
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Arannir
Valinor
Sep 1 2015, 8:28pm
Post #42 of 47
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I indeed confused something.
Thank you all ;)
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 1 2015, 8:36pm
Post #43 of 47
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That may be a bit of a stretch.
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And sure, of course. But that is a different thing from the film asking or requiring that we speculate. It might just be there as a way of saying "a long time".
Not to belabor the point, but Elrond is very specific here: "A four hundred year, watchful peace." I think it's a real stretch to suggest that he meant that only as a general expression. However, we could argue for days about how it came about without settling anything, so I'll leave it at that.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 1 2015, 8:36pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 1 2015, 8:43pm
Post #44 of 47
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Sorry that's my lack of clarity
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I meant for the writers to indicate to the audience that it was a long time - not an in-story indication to other characters.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 1 2015, 9:07pm
Post #45 of 47
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I paraphrased Elrond's words rather than directly quoting him. But I think that it was clear enough.
SInce the writers did specify 400 years, though, I would think that Jackson, Walsh and Boyens had something in the backs of their minds about it knowing that their Necromancer had not been in Dol Guldur for most of the Third Age. Perhaps Peter Jackson can clarify the issue one day.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 1 2015, 9:22pm
Post #46 of 47
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Equally, I think people write lines of dialogue of a similar kind all the time - "We haven't had an argument like that in 20 years..." and don't have any idea of what that last argument was about, as the line is designed to reflect the current mindset.
I would also say that the authors having something in mind isn't the same as the audience interpreting it on that particular way. But it's always interesting to hear creators' thoughts!
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 1 2015, 10:58pm
Post #47 of 47
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ELROND: Gandalf, for 400 years we have lived in peace--a hard-won, watchful peace.
Odds are that Elrond did not mean precisely 400 years; however, that number is specific enough to suggest that it is pretty close to being accurate, just as Tolkien's Watchful Peace lasted for slightly less than 400 years. Now, we agree that we can't tell for certain what event began that peace (although I can, and have, made a pretty good guess), but that is another issue that I have agreed to set aside.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 1 2015, 11:00pm)
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