|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 31 2015, 7:58am
Post #26 of 34
(834 views)
Shortcut
|
..because even if they hadn't created Alfrid they would still have needed to include scenes of the men of Laketown. Alfrid is taking the time that could have been given to some other men (or women) of Laketown.
Similarly with Legolas. Fair enough to say this or that stunt was unnecessary but the film still needed to give screentime to the elves fighting. He may have been taking time that could have been given to his father or some other elf, but it's elf time, not dwarf time.
|
|
|
dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 31 2015, 8:21am
Post #27 of 34
(830 views)
Shortcut
|
OK, some of this, I agree, would have been nice. Reading this....
What would Balin do, when Dain's line was overrun, or before that? Could we have a moment of Balin with Dwalin, where they both acknowledge it ends, in an hour, maybe two? Would Balin finally break, and decide it was more important that some survive, and try to convince Fili to at least take Kili and a few of the other dwarves, and flee, and having lived at Erebor tell them a path to take? Even help (since Balin knew explosives and they can go to the forges now, so perhaps open the western guardroom or a waterway running through the forges?)
Even a moment where Balin just loses his temper with all of it, since he had had doubts? Or a moment when wise Balin tries to comfort Fili, especially when Fili confesses his own doubts because Bard took the party in, and an elf saved Kili, and his uncle seems gone...And is this his fate, as well? Or some valid reason, someplace, that would really lead us to believe that in the future, Balin would try to take back Moria?
E.g., for me (so far) there's always going to be more any of the dwarves trapped in Erebor could be saying or doing because if you have 14 beings together IMO they are going to be communicating with each other, especially in a high stress situation. For me the situation with the trapped dwarves and "loyal to a fault" bond to their maddened king is beautiful and terrible and noble and epic - and I suppose we do see that. I just wanted the lines colored in more and not just by Kili (tho Aidan Turner is great).
I thought, yes, there is an opening for more dwarf dialogue in the group we see waiting while Thorin has his gold pavement moment, when they know that Dain's army is fighting and dying outside the Mountain. For myself I don't think the idea of Balin deciding some should escape would have worked, partly because it's introducing a new sub-plot which isn't going to go anywhere and that's a waste of screen time. It also seems completely out of character. Whatever doubts Balin may have had he's loyal to Thorin, and once there's a battle on I don't think he'd look for an escape. But yes, there are lots of openings for dialogue while they wait (and who knows, maybe there will be something in the EE). But remember that if the film had stuck closely tot he book it wouldn't have shown us anything at all about what happens in the Mountain after Bilbo leaves....
As for your last two paragraphs, about what you would get from BotFA seen alone, I suppose I'd say no one is expecting you or anyone to look at the final film only. The idea is that we put together everything from the three films. So we get to know the dwarves in AUJ, we build up an understanding of the through that film and DoS - and it isn't only what they say, it's how they interact. Expressions, gestures, who's always in front, who acts in tandem with someone else, who's headstrong... These men are actors. Whenever you see them, they're telling you something about their character. So when it gets to the final film you DO know them - I'd say that the fondness people have for them and the demands for more dwarves is testament to how well they've done the job.
|
|
|
dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 31 2015, 8:25am
Post #28 of 34
(828 views)
Shortcut
|
But sometimes you have to go by what you see and not what you think you might have seen. Unless unused footage actually appears in the background stuff and we're told why it wasn't used - like the dwarves meeting with Thranduil - we're not in a position to say what might have been.
Wait and see....
PS - I wouldn't lose anything of Gundabad - I love that scene! 
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 31 2015, 3:10pm
Post #29 of 34
(803 views)
Shortcut
|
Essentially, from the shore of Long Lake and onwards, Alfrid is standing in for the Master of Lake-town (although in the book, the Master and other non-combatants remain beside the lake and do not travel to Dale).
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 31 2015, 4:47pm
Post #30 of 34
(789 views)
Shortcut
|
(and LOL the gold floor tho for me, after rewatching BOFA again, it struck me again on how well that scene is done - the voice overlay, the shadow of the dragon *no pun intended re my watching Hannibal either * and of course RA is superb....)
Re Gundabad as you mention, others love it too . And there are things I love about it - the bleak landscape, the unusual IMO and forbidding and UNIQUE look of the fortress (which I find vaguely disturbing), the way the legion pours out and then creepily those goblins come forward like a chittering flood of rats (reminds me of nature footage when there is an explosion in the mice population) - LOL here and there I am sure I am seeing PJ's horror director side.
And IMO you are right, I think some of the things I mention would be out of character - which could be interesting or a total fail, depending. And for me once I had one dwarf speaking, well, then I suppose more of them would be, so all of that would have to be thought out carefully - like I really love my own idea that Dori would ask Nori, at the last, to take Ori and leave - but would Nori and Ori go? Ori has toughened up a lot ...and Nori may just rebelliously stay.
For me I guess the real issue is not to REMOVE anything, but just ADD in more. Because one day I will probably buy the entire Game of Thrones series and sit happily through that over several days, so I see no issue with a 4, 5, hour long BOFA that can be watched in the comfort of my own home.  After all, at least in my hemisphere, winter is coming
|
|
|
Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Sep 1 2015, 8:04pm
Post #31 of 34
(743 views)
Shortcut
|
They could have shown Balin actually taking part in the final battle instead of having him completely disappear until the end. They could have had a scene with him talking to Kili and Fili about their roles as Thorin's heirs. There are all kinds of things they could have written for him. Maybe they wouldn't have enriched the story as much as Alfrid wearing a dress in two separate scenes, but I think PJ, Fran, and Philippa are more than capable of writing great character moments. Just because Balin only does a certain number of things in the movie already doesn't mean there's literally nothing else of value that they could have him do.
It's like watching the theatrical cut of AUJ and saying "well what else could Bilbo actually do? He did everything he did in the book, and he served his role." And then the EE comes out and shows just how much more Bilbo could have done. Little moments go a long way. It's up to the filmmakers to come up with ways to use their characters, and if they could find ways to have Alfrid show up as much as they did, why couldn't they do the same thing for other characters?
And I'm not saying that Orlando or Evangeline are inferior actors, but even their parts could have been better - possibly in a "less is more" sense. I think I may have mentioned already that I wanted to see the dwarf "hero moments" that PJ talked about, but apparently decided wasn't as important as the 144 min runtime & Alfrid's shenanigans. Overall I liked BOTFA, and yes, pretty much any movie could be better, but honestly it does feel like PJ abandoned the Company in the 3rd movie.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
|
|
|
Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Sep 1 2015, 8:23pm
Post #32 of 34
(735 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Weeeel - "Then we're with you, Laddie."
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
"We'll see this through."
The only problem I have with your suggested scenarios is that these Dwarves as portrayed wouldn't do any of those things. Balin suggest that Kili & Fili run? As if! These dwarves are not only loyal to a fault, but they have been through so much together and have FINALLY reached Erebor. There's just NO WAY (sadly *sob*) any of them would leave. There is a brief scene, after Bard rides away and Bilbo is questioning Thorin, where Fili and Dwalin have concerned looks on their faces, but they say nothing. And the only reason Dwalin confronts Thorin is because Dain is surrounded and dwarves are dying. He doesn't want to run, he wants to go out there and fight, because that's what Dwarves do (Durin's folk do not flee from a fight). But I get what you're saying, and I would also have liked more from the minor dwarves (Oin, Gloin, Bifur, Bombur, Ori, Nori & Dori), along with Bofur's allegedly filmed conversation with Bilbo about understanding why HE is leaving - and as stated above, why Bofur isn't. Yeah, THAT conversation would have been great, here's hoping....
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
|
|
|
CamdenMcAndrews
Rivendell
Sep 2 2015, 4:39am
Post #33 of 34
(710 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Any one of the dwarves could have his own movie
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Seriously, there's enough of a story about every one of the 13 dwarves to make at least one full-length film focused on that one character's life. You just need a bunch of money along with writers and a director who are good enough to put the story together (and maybe the aplomb to ignore the self-appointed fan critics). The intellectual property issues would probably be covered in the existing agreement. Balin, for sure, has at least two films to be developed and perhaps even a trilogy. But the dwarves are supporting roles in the story in the three Hobbit films. These films are not about them.
The films are about Bilbo Baggins and his role in the Tolkien legendarium.
I, too, would love to see more about the dwarves, and more about Hobbiton and Bree, too, as well as Lake-town. In Erebor, Dain has an empire to build. In Dale, Bard has a city to rebuild. But those belong in other stories, other films. Shifting the focus from the viewpoint character confused the viewer and weakens the whole work.
|
|
|
MyWeeLadGimli
Lorien
Sep 2 2015, 6:12am
Post #34 of 34
(698 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The films aren't entirely about Bilbo
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
DOS and BOFA, in particular, are just as much about Thorin as they are about Bilbo.
And I think the films already shifted significantly away from the viewpoint character, and in BOFA this was done largely in favor of certain Elves and Alfrid. I'm just saying that if they were going to spend so much time on side characters, more of that should have gone to the ones who've been there all along and should have had one last moment to shine.
|
|
|
|
|
