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MyWeeLadGimli
Lorien
Aug 29 2015, 7:49pm
Post #1 of 34
(2123 views)
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A Tribute to the Other Dwarves
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It's well known that pretty much the entire Company besides Thorin got sidelined in BOFA. But a few of them did get some standout moments and a lot of love around here (Balin, Dwalin, Kili, and kind of Fili).
This is to honor the Dwarves who basically became extras for the final film, and deserved so much better: Dori, Nori, Ori, Oin, Gloin, Bifur, Bofur, and Bombur! They were the source of a lot of comic relief and wonderful little moments in the first two films. Who can forget Dori's little glass of red wine, Gloin's locket, or Bombur showing who the fastest member of the Company is? You deserved better, dear fellows, and hopefully the EE will deliver all those "hero" moments PJ promised.
P.S. Every time someone refers to "The Durins" on here, I always want to point out that Balin, Dwalin, Oin, and Gloin are Durins as well. 
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DainPig
Gondor
Aug 29 2015, 7:56pm
Post #3 of 34
(2057 views)
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I love the other dwarves too, and hate when someone call Fili, Kili adn Thorin as "The Durins"
Actually, there are five dwarves who are the favorites of PJ: Thorin, Kili, Fili, Dwalin and Balin. The rest do not matter, why PJ ???
I have to say here: Nori is my favorite one 
How aaaaaaaaaaaaaare you all???
Hey guys, my blog is: dainpigblog.blogspot.com
And my Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Hobbit-Rules/676198089181339
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Aug 29 2015, 8:02pm
Post #4 of 34
(2047 views)
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Tolken`s favorites Thorin, Balin. The rest don`t matter.
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CathrineB
Rohan
Aug 29 2015, 8:09pm
Post #5 of 34
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Fili. One of PJs favorites? 
ANYWAY I love Bofur. So much. He's my favorite along with Fili and Kili. I just love his charm and humor and gosh I wish there were much more of him.
Actually I love them all though despite the little we got of them.
I watched AUJ tonight and noticed how Oin does get quite a bit more attention than I have noticed when I first saw the movie. I have grown quite fond of him.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 29 2015, 8:30pm
Post #6 of 34
(2023 views)
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Tolkien's Favorite Dwarves (in The Hobbit)
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Tolken`s favorites Thorin, Balin. The rest don`t matter.
Tolkien gives Bombur some attention too. Some of the others do get some bits of dialogue and other business even after the Unexpected Party, but not very much. It still irks me a bit that Fili and Kili aren't even identified as Thorin's nephews until near the end of the book.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 29 2015, 8:31pm)
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NManfredi
Rivendell
Aug 29 2015, 9:57pm
Post #8 of 34
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And something that will always be on my mind is what would have happened if Tolkien in fact had re-written The Hobbit. I think we would have a more solid, polished book now, maybe not alike The Children of Húrin but close in respect to texture (not content). I imagine him giving more participation to some of the Dwarves and including a paragraph, right in the end of the book, explaining what was Gandalf doing in his whereabouts. Also, the backstory of the line of Dúrin could have been a little more detailed.
"Is it not a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt for so small a thing? So small a thing! And I have seen it only for an instant in the house of Elrond! Could I not have a sight of it again?"
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Never_Underestimate_A_Dwarf
Rivendell
Aug 29 2015, 10:16pm
Post #9 of 34
(1945 views)
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I wouldn't have half as much love (or barely any) for the trilogy if they weren't as great as they were. What made botfa so disappointing for me was their absence. They are almost nonexistent - they become like one character - "background dwarf" - and we don't get to see how they feel or any sparks of their very unique personalities.
(I would add Fili to the "othe dwarves" pile, at least in the movie - the only standout moment he got was a sword in the back.)
Justice for Fili
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MyWeeLadGimli
Lorien
Aug 29 2015, 10:42pm
Post #10 of 34
(1932 views)
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But only for AUJ. The EE gave him and Nori a lot more material.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Aug 30 2015, 12:00am
Post #11 of 34
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In my view Ken Stott – a really fine actor – was completely wasted in the film. I don't know why they even bothered employing such a good actor when his role was so minor – but then I suppose it was vitally important to show the boring cliche made-up characters of Legolas and Turiel.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 30 2015, 4:07am
Post #12 of 34
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Thinking about Ken Stott hurts
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Flawless. Impeccable. Superb. And I will add that Graham McTavish was amazing when he confronts Thorin.
Baffling to have such incredible and dedicated talent on hand and not make more use of it.  
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Aug 30 2015, 8:25am
Post #13 of 34
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Ken stott has not a miner role in this trilogy.
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He have more screen time then Legolas or Tauriel have in this trilogy. He was cast for the trilogy not just for BOTFA. And he wasn't wasted in this film. We have Balin saying Smaug his dead, Bilbo and Balin about the arkenstone, Bilbo and Balin's faerwel. And in the other films we have Thorin and Balin in bag end, Balin and Bilbo in rivendel, reading the mone runs, Evrything in bag end and. Balin and Bard, moria flashback, Girion flashback, Thorin and Balin at the secret door and Bilbo and Balin in Erebor. It dosen't sound like his role was miner.
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Elanor of Rohan
Lorien
Aug 30 2015, 8:45am
Post #14 of 34
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Balin and Dwalin are my favourites
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apart from the 3 Royals.
I would have liked to have more scenes with them. Graham and Ken were brilliant.
If Fili is considered one of the favourites, we can imagine how marginal the role of most Dwarves is....
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 30 2015, 9:08am
Post #15 of 34
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Ken Stott is a perfect Balin. The casting couldn't be improved - at least, I don't think it could. But what more would you have Balin actually do in the film? No matter how good the actor is, they can't introduce dialogue scenes into the film just for the sake of it. So what would you like Balin to do in the story that he doesn't do already?
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Aug 30 2015, 10:01am
Post #16 of 34
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No matter how good the actor is, they can't introduce dialogue scenes into the film just for the sake of it.
They did it with Legolas, Tauriel and Alfrid (all played by inferior actors, but perhaps especially the first one, who was given the most time), utterly needlessly and to the detriment of the film. (And there are also many other dialogue scenes that I would call 'for the sake of it'.) For me Balin is a much more important Tolkien character than any of those three. If any of the Dwarves should have had his character expanded it would have been him. (And of the non-Dwarves it should have been Beorn, who I would certainly argue should have had more time than any of the Dwarves barring Thorin.) IMHO.
Of course, I know some defend all of PJ's decisions no matter what, so I'll just agree to differ with you on this one.
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Aug 30 2015, 10:27am
Post #17 of 34
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They are really good actors. Only because you don't like them in this trilogy because they they take more screen time or it is not your humor doesn't mean they are inferior then others. And only because I defend PJ doesn't mean I like everything he have done but I have except it and I understand why he did it. But some will complain on PJ decisions no matter what.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 30 2015, 1:18pm
Post #18 of 34
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So what would you have Balin do?
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No matter what you think of the other characters the question remains. If you think Balin should have done more in the film, what is it that you think he should have done? What extra part could he have played in the story?
I know you dislike the use made of Alfrid, Tauriel and Legolas in the film. You've made that amply clear and that's fine. But as far as the scriptwriting team was concerned each of those characters was playing a part in the film's story. They didn't just pop up and make a speech occasionally, there were reasons for the things they said and did: no one has to like those reasons or agree with them to acknowledge their existence.
Personally I don't see a competition between Legolas and Balin. Both are Tolkien characters, both play a part in his books. I think it's OK to like both, and will continue to do so!
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 30 2015, 1:40pm
Post #19 of 34
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I thought that Balin was used very well. He is a secondary character; albeit an important one. I am disappointed that we don't get to see him and Gandalf visit Bilbo one more time after the end of the hobbit's adventure, but I cannot say that our dwarf was under-used.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Susan
Bree
Aug 30 2015, 2:35pm
Post #20 of 34
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I don't think most of Legolas and Tauriel's scenes were needless, necessarily. While basically all the other characters were tied up near the mountain, the two elves could be used to show the audience what was happening elsewhere.
And in my opinion Balin and Dwalin were pretty well used--most of Balin's development had already happened in the first movie, and he got a decent amount of screen time in the third, while Dwalin got, if anything, more exposure in BOTFA (confronting Thorin, talking with him on Ravenhill). But perhaps we will, as you said, just have to agree to differ.
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Aug 30 2015, 4:49pm
Post #21 of 34
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They could have shown Balin actually taking part in the final battle instead of having him completely disappear until the end. They could have had a scene with him talking to Kili and Fili about their roles as Thorin's heirs. There are all kinds of things they could have written for him. Maybe they wouldn't have enriched the story as much as Alfrid wearing a dress in two separate scenes, but I think PJ, Fran, and Philippa are more than capable of writing great character moments. Just because Balin only does a certain number of things in the movie already doesn't mean there's literally nothing else of value that they could have him do.
It's like watching the theatrical cut of AUJ and saying "well what else could Bilbo actually do? He did everything he did in the book, and he served his role." And then the EE comes out and shows just how much more Bilbo could have done. Little moments go a long way. It's up to the filmmakers to come up with ways to use their characters, and if they could find ways to have Alfrid show up as much as they did, why couldn't they do the same thing for other characters?
(This post was edited by Mooseboy018 on Aug 30 2015, 4:53pm)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 30 2015, 6:38pm
Post #22 of 34
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No need to sound so hostile.....
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I'm just looking for something more creative than a complaint that Balin was underused and a row of frowning smilies, because it seems to me that Balin was very well used across all three films - he has some superb dialogue moments. So I was genuinely interested to see what it was people felt he'd missed out on. They could have shown more of him in the battle, that's true, but that would be unlikely to give him much more dialogue. As for a scene with Fili and Kili, I can't see that there was really a place for that as such - perhaps he could have tried to explain Thorin to them, but Bilbo managed that very well.
And as for your comment about Alfrid, I'm sorry, but that really made me laugh. Someone's asking a question we don't like? Quick - hit them with a complaint about Alfrid or Legolas or Tauriel. For what it's worth, I don't even like Alfrid's drag scene particularly so your sarcasm has rather missed its mark. I can see what they were trying to do with Alfrid in the story, but for me it went a bit too far. But I think it is just worth pointing out - again - that Alfrid (and Legolas and Tauriel) are not alternatives to Balin (or Fili or Kili or Dwalin or Ori, Dori, Nori, Bifur, Bofur, Bombur, Oin, Gloin). They are in places where the dwarves are not and they contribute to parts of the story the dwarves do not share, being inside the Mountain. And the worlds of men and elves are just as much part of the story of Bilbo's adventure as the world of dwarves.
It's very easy to say that it's up to the filmmakers to think of these things. As we didn't see more of Balin I'm betting they couldn't think of more scenes for him, or PJ couldn't fit the scenes they did think of into the theatrical cut. Right choice? Wrong choice? Won't know that until we've seen the EE.
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MyWeeLadGimli
Lorien
Aug 30 2015, 10:13pm
Post #23 of 34
(1591 views)
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In a way Alfrid is kind of taking the Dwarves' spot
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Aside from the "King Bard" scene, pretty much all of Alfrid's screen time is used as comic relief. The Dwarves were the primary source of comedy in the first two films, so some of the time spent following Alfrid's antics could instead have been spent giving the Dwarves some moments to lighten the mood.
Similarly, the amount of time spent watching Legolas doing stunts could have been reduced to spend some time showing the Company in battle. This would also provide the benefit of showing more of the actual battle, which is practically forgotten once Thorin goes to Ravenhill.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 31 2015, 4:49am
Post #24 of 34
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Most assuredly I don't think there should be dialogue for the sake of it (tho I imagine there is some line to walk between character building moments and just talking for the sake of it) - and I'll speak to BOFA in particular - similar to an older post when I was asked how I might envision an increased role or arc for Fili -
well, based on Ken Stott' s own words in the Appendices and his long history with Erebor - I would expand on that questioning in Balin' s mind -
E.g., in the Appendices Ken Stott talks about all that Balin has seen and he's somewhat dubious as to the value of the risk for these trinkets. At the same time, we see Balin, like Thorin, filled with memory at being home.
And there is his affection for his brother, for Bilbo, for Thorin. IMO there are strong emotions in Balin pulling in different directions, and he, I don't think, ever had the comfort of the single-mindedness of Thorin and Dwalin.
So, like all the dwarves IMO, there were plenty of character moments that might have been explored or serve as an arc, in that these characters under siege - if Thorin had not clawed himself back - were all going to die in the ruins of Erebor.
What would Balin do, when Dain's line was overrun, or before that? Could we have a moment of Balin with Dwalin, where they both acknowledge it ends, in an hour, maybe two? Would Balin finally break, and decide it was more important that some survive, and try to convince Fili to at least take Kili and a few of the other dwarves, and flee, and having lived at Erebor tell them a path to take? Even help (since Balin knew explosives and they can go to the forges now, so perhaps open the western guardroom or a waterway running through the forges?)
Even a moment where Balin just loses his temper with all of it, since he had had doubts? Or a moment when wise Balin tries to comfort Fili, especially when Fili confesses his own doubts because Bard took the party in, and an elf saved Kili, and his uncle seems gone...And is this his fate, as well? Or some valid reason, someplace, that would really lead us to believe that in the future, Balin would try to take back Moria?
E.g., for me (so far) there's always going to be more any of the dwarves trapped in Erebor could be saying or doing because if you have 14 beings together IMO they are going to be communicating with each other, especially in a high stress situation. For me the situation with the trapped dwarves and "loyal to a fault" bond to their maddened king is beautiful and terrible and noble and epic - and I suppose we do see that. I just wanted the lines colored in more and not just by Kili (tho Aidan Turner is great). I travelled through two films with these guys so I would have loved to have heard more from them 
So in AUJ - which IMO could have had more character moments too, but by the time the dwarves leave Bag End I have a real sense of who they are, and have an affection for them. But re BOFA, if I took that alone, for the most part I don't know what is going on with them at all - I know Balin is grieving, and Dwalin is pretty upset, and...Well, that is pretty much it, really.
Even the affectionate brother relationship so well done in AUJ between Dwalin and Balin only gets a moment when Dwalin and Balin just look at each other - like Fili and Kili or the other family groups, nothing is made of those bonds - I know dwarves are supposed to be stoic but I think brothers and cousins would probably say something, at the last. Even if it's just some rueful ironic remark.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 31 2015, 5:15am
Post #25 of 34
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Tho re your comment about right or wrong choices - we won't know from the EE either. Because we're not privy to all of the footage that was made.
Re the importance of elves and men, well, yes. But IMO even then, although Thranduil has a good amount of screen time and an utterly beautiful entrance to Dale, like the dwarves and Beorn, I could have used more of him in battle and definitely would have, but PJ never called me (;. And I certainly would have ratcheted down the time spent at Gundabad.
Well, anyway, re the EE looks like the chariot is in, so I am going to assume there is SOME dwarf conversation, and with any luck right now they are hiding some superb Beorn footage
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Lovely post
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