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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Aug 22 2015, 5:26pm
Post #1 of 31
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Super Eextended Edition Hobbit and Lord of the rings theory
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Hi ALL
I´ve been reading the two towers and I noticed that some of the meetings like The Three Hunters and Eomer is way longer than in the movie, I can get why and its ok
BUT...
What if the superextended cut has a few new scenes but a longer bits of dialogue adding more and more bits of the book.
Im talking about brief sentences by the characters, Im talking about a few more seconds here and there
The DoS extended edition for example has this two seconds of Alfrid sneaking among the people of Lake Town, its not in the book I know, its only two seconds but here and there the movie gets enriched
Or the Thranduil scene were he meets the dwarves in his halls
In Lord of the Rings there are a lot of these that Im sure they shooted, here and there you can see it on the extras etc
Could it be, so the movies got even closer to the book
It happened in FOTR EE wich is closer to the book by adding no new scenes but a lot of sentences that are in fact in the book. A lot more are not in the films but Im sure they got shooted
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Aug 22 2015, 5:59pm
Post #2 of 31
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There is a scene in the council of Elrond
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where after Elrond said "Nine companions." he said "to match the nine ringwraiths." that was cut and it was from the book.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 22 2015, 8:54pm
Post #3 of 31
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It happened in FOTR EE wich is closer to the book by adding no new scenes but a lot of sentences that are in fact in the book. A lot more are not in the films but Im sure they got shooted
Not to quibble, but the past tense of shoot is shot. I had to post in order to quiet the demons gnawing at the back of my brain.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Aug 23 2015, 1:24am
Post #4 of 31
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Yes you are right. English is not my mother tongue but I try to make my point understandable
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moreorless
Gondor
Aug 24 2015, 7:13am
Post #5 of 31
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What I would want most is a "best cut"...
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With LOTR my one big regret is that I'm not sure we ever really got the "best cuts" of the films(especially TTT and ROTK), we got the TE's aimed at the mass cinema market and then I think the EE's were focused a lot on showing us "interesting extras". Now I don't disagree with the idea behind the latter as I think extra material is vastly more interesting when you see it integrated into the film but I'm not sure all of it was "for the best" plus I'm guessing FOTR might well have been limited in not including material that could have helped due to a lower EE budget/scope.
Rough ideas of such cuts...
FOTR - The hardest to gauge as we get much less extra material and what we do get is all good(if not essential). Perhaps the originally planned orc attack in Lorein could be put back into the film? not sure whether they filmed enough of it but that would IMHO link the film together a bit better. Aragorn having an Arewn flashback could also be effective and link into TTT similar flashback.
TTT - As the OP mentioned more of the three hunters and Eomer would be nice if its there. I could personally cut the Eoywen soup scene as the comedy feels a bit out of place to me and the same with Treebeards house. The big shift I would consider is the ending, whilst the extra material we get is nice I felt the TE's ending had a superior flow to it with Sam's speech as the climax. Merry and Pippin finding the store to me undermines the surprise of there scene at the start of ROTK.
ROTK - A bit more extra to the voice of Saurman scene would be nice if its there including the reveal of Wormtongue killing Theodred plus really anything that shows a bit more of Minas Tirith prior to the build up to the attack. I would cut out a bit of Gimli's blowing of ghost hands(maybe just keep one blow) but the extended dead sequence works for me and provides enough of a bridge to the Corsairs. Cut the scene with the three hunters confronting them, not great and its not needed, cut the Mouth of Sauron as well but potentially add in more of the houses of healing and Sam at Cirith Ungol.
(This post was edited by moreorless on Aug 24 2015, 7:16am)
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Aug 24 2015, 11:15am
Post #6 of 31
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That three hunters against the corsairs is not necessary
But I think a lot moments from the book were shot. The goblins pursuing the company to Lorien is in the book.
The most disturbing thing is : something festers in heart of middle earth... I think that is a mess
I wonder why on earth they didnt include Denethor with the palantir, I think that was shot
But definetly Im up with the idea that when the EE came out they saved some scenes for a super etended edition, as well as with the hobbit movies in a long term plan
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
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(This post was edited by Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) on Aug 24 2015, 11:15am)
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moreorless
Gondor
Aug 24 2015, 7:01pm
Post #7 of 31
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I'm not sure they deliberately did anything but...
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I don't think they deliberately left material behind for a "super extended edition" but you could argue that the EE were somewhat limited in their scope even as the budget increased. It does perhaps it stand out that pretty much everything in the EE's is a case of adding in new material rather than actively reworking the film. Maybe that's a result of the rather tight time frame they were working to? reworking entire sections is a much more difficult task.
I would say as well that part of the draw of the EE's was showing "cool stuff", a lot of scenes from the books that readers wanted to see visualised. As you mention though I think the best extra material was mostly in smaller more personal scenes and if it exists I would certainly like to see more of that.
Jackson could potentially work in a more leisurely fashion on "ultimate cuts" rather than just having a few months so much more extensive reworking might be possible.
(This post was edited by moreorless on Aug 24 2015, 7:02pm)
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moreorless
Gondor
Aug 25 2015, 6:16pm
Post #9 of 31
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I think you maybe see it go both ways as the EE's progress
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I think the constraints that PJ and the rest of the staff were working under on LOTR (not just time but in terms of budget, having to prove the viability of the project, courting fans of the book, having some limitations in terms of SFX capabilities) ultimately made the films better. I dunno if the phrase "art from adversity" sums it up accurately or not, but comparing The Hobbit or King Kong to LOTR (and even to some extent FOTR to ROTK), I think PJ is at his best when he's working against limitations and has something to prove. Which of course would not be the case with new cuts of the trilogy made now.
With the FOTR EE Jackson had a much smaller budget and was under more pressure. it ment that we didn't get as much questionable "fan pleasing" material but I suspect we might have also missed out on some very good material that he didn't have the resources/clout to include.
TTT and ROTK definitely have more in there EE's that's of questionable quality(or that flows well with material around it) but on the flipside they do IMHO include more excellent scenes as well, some that Jackson wouldn't have had the budget for with FOTR's EE.
Even in those EE's though Jackson was working on a pretty tight schedule and getting as far as serious reediting of material might have been beyond his scope.
I can understand the dislike of directors messing around with there films coming after Lucas's SW's edits but of course in that case he was forcing his edits on the audience and IMHO had massively regressed as a film maker(his real love for decades has IMHO been the technical side). LOTR though does seem pretty unique in that it was always so organic, the script changed massively during filming and then we got the EE's whilst the films were still being released.
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Aug 27 2015, 9:52pm
Post #11 of 31
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return of the king 4hours and 30minutes long
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I have seen the ROTK extras and when they come down to the final cut of rotk PJ does say that they came up with a four hour and a half cut And that they were happy with it but due to Theatrical demands they had to readjust it to theatrical lenght
He said for example guardians of Cirith Ungol were shot. So Im pretty sure if they make this superextended cut those twenty minutes would come back in
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
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Darkstone
Immortal
Aug 27 2015, 10:02pm
Post #12 of 31
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As I recall Jackson said he shot about 30 takes of the scene with Sam and the Watchers but just couldn't make it work.
Dunno if I would care to see bad cinema inserted just to get more LOTR.
******************************************
That hobbit has a pleasant face,
His private life is a disgrace.
I really could not tell to you,
The awful things that hobbits do.
Things that your paper never prints
They only speak of them in hints.
They have such lost, degraded souls,
No wonder they inhabit holes;
When such depravity is found,
It only can live underground.
I really dare not name to you,
The awful things that hobbits do.
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cats16
Half-elven
Aug 28 2015, 4:19am
Post #13 of 31
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Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
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Cillendor
Lorien
Aug 28 2015, 3:54pm
Post #15 of 31
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But I really hope that they filmed the FOTR intro with Martin Freeman and a short scene of Bilbo and Gloin talking in Rivendell while they had all the actors there. It would be so simple to do, and it wouldn't really take anything away from FOTR. It would just add that extra bit of visual connection between the films that they could never have anticipated while working on FOTR.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Aug 28 2015, 5:07pm
Post #16 of 31
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A (rumored) list of some of the missing scenes
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Before the TTT-EE came out a list of unseen scenes surfaced. A lot of the scenes mentioned in the list later showed up on the TTT and ROTK EEs, such as The Sons of the Steward and Deagol and Smeagol fishing so it was accurate for those. Here is a list of some scenes that are supposedly still unseen.
Additional scenes of the forging of the ring, including Sauron cutting his hand and mixing his own blood into the molten metal. (Sala Baker said it was a very cool scene.)
Additional scenes of Gil-Galad, including his death scene where Sauron stoops down, picks him up, and incinerates Gil-Galad alive. (Apparently Sauron is very hot.) Note this explains why Sauron is reaching for Isildur, seemingly carelessly exposing his fingers and ring to being chopped off: He was going to incinerate Isildur too. This scene may have been excised to avoid a R rating.
Frodo in various poses for his first appearance, including reading a book in various locations. Jackson said it took a long time for him to figure out how best to introduce Frodo. He said the one finally used in the film was one of the last scenes filmed.
In a nod to be politically correct, the scenes of Gandalf entering the Shire had him eating toffees instead of smoking. McKellen hated the concept and it was abandoned.
At the party, more scenes of Gandalf entertaining the children.
Lots more shots of Sam and Rosie dancing and Sam becoming more and more enthralled,
Various versions of Gandalf discovering Sam.
Some shots of Aragorn, the hobbits, and Bill in the streets of Bree in daylight.
Shots of the Hobbits tiredly lugging supplies up to their perch in Amun Sul, including Sam carrying a wooden keg.
Shots of Arwen and Aragorn together in the past, including their first meeting.
Bilbo discussing the departure of Rivendell with Elrond and Arwen. (I have no idea what that means.)
Shots of Frodo and Sam under a gazebo in Rivendell, looking at a brass armillary sphere. Frodo looks up and sees Aragorn and Arwen on a balcony. Frodo and Arwen share a long glance.
A council of Elves debating whether or not an alliance with Men is feasible. (They decide not.) In the same council Legolas rises to scold his fellow Elves for not staying and assisting the race of Men with their fight against Sauron.
A scene with Elrond, Gandalf, and Bilbo eating lunch in Elrond’s library where Bilbo volunteers to take the ring. (The remains of the meal can be seen in the background when Elrond gives his “Men are weak” rant. Additionally, the blurry figure sometimes seen way in the background when Elrond is speaking is Bilbo.)
Shots of the changing phases of the moon in an attempt to show the passage of time. Didn’t work and some of the scenes were inserted into the film willy-nilly so the phases in the films make absolutely no sense.
Additional shots of Boromir comforting Gimli in the Chamber of Mazarbul.
Fragments of a never finished scene of Moria Orcs chasing the Fellowship into Lothlorien, and the Lothlorien Elves coming to the rescue.
Further shots of Merry and Pippin being guarded by the Uruk-hai at night making it clearer that the chase was three nights.
Scenes with the Rohirrim speaking in Irish accents. This concept was abandoned and the scenes were reshot.
Fragments of a subplot where Theodred doesn’t die of his wounds but of poisoning by Grima. The concept was abandoned and the scenes never finished.
A scene where Saruman monologues that he will soon become “more powerful than the Lord of the Rings himself”.
Shots of Elrond and Arwen leading a band of Rivendell Elves into Lothlorien followed by a conference between Elrond, Arwen, Celeborn, and Galadriel. The concept was a part of the XenArwen storyline which was later abandoned.
Arwen leading the Rivendell Elves to Helm’s Deep.
Arwen fighting at Helm’s Deep.
Ents fighting at Helm's Deep.
Fragments of a scene where the Uruk-hai invade the caves in Helm's Deep while Eowyn is delivering a baby, including Eowyn waiting behind a stalagmite to ambush an Uruk-hai. The scene was never finished.
Sam discussing the changes happening to Frodo with Gollum while the Ringbearer is asleep.
Gimli exploring the caves under Helm's Deep with Legolas
Aragorn conversing with someone at night while lying down in a Rohirrim camp.
Sam summoning up courage to go past the Watchers. After over 30 takes Jackson said they couldn’t make the scene work and so they scrapped it.
Three takes of the wedding of Eowyn and Faramir. Jackson took two. Walsh and Boyens were unsatisfied with the scene, especially with the kiss, and Jackson let them jointly direct a third scene, which they said was perfect.
The marriage of Aragorn and Arwen. Boyens was especially sad because she says Arwen's gown was absolutely gorgeous.
The huge pumpkin at The Green Dragon being accidentally dropped.
Finally, other actors, especially Sean Astin, have said some of their best scenes were cut.
******************************************
"We’re orcs of the Misty Mountains,
Our singing’s part of canon.
We do routines and chorus scenes
While dancing with abandon.
We killed Isildur in the Gladden,
To help Sauron bring Armageddon!"
-From "Monty Python and the One Ring"
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Aug 28 2015, 5:09pm)
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Susan
Bree
Aug 28 2015, 5:11pm
Post #17 of 31
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I too hope they filmed the FOTR intro with Martin Freeman; it might be just me but the scene doesn't feel quite right anymore after watching AUJ, especially since the ring is picked up differently in the two trilogies.
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Wasserwaldnymphe
The Shire
Aug 28 2015, 7:27pm
Post #18 of 31
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I'm not sure, what I should say to Sauron cutting his hand, because it seems like a cliché, but Sauron incinerating his foes is remarkable (and, as you said, it explains his exposed finger).
The first meeting of Aragorn and Arwen - IIRC he was a child then. I don't know how the non-reader would have reacted to that.
Legolas scolding his fellow elves. That's interesting, mainly because it would cast a light on Thranduil's policy and Legolas as his heir.
Fragments of a never finished scene of Moria Orcs chasing the Fellowship into Lothlorien, and the Lothlorien Elves coming to the rescue.
I missed the Lothlorien Elves vs. Orcs-scene. Although it was "only" shadows and noises in the book, it was suspense.
Gimli exploring the caves under Helm's Deep with Legolas
Aww, the caves! They already showed us Gimli adoring Galadriel, so that's maybe why they cut out Gimling adoring the caves of men, but… that would be a nice addition to his exploration of other cultures.
What can men do against such reckless hate?
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zarabia
Tol Eressea
Aug 29 2015, 9:30am
Post #20 of 31
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Would I like to see incorporated into a super extended edition. I would, however, love to see many of the rest in an "extras" with commentary from PJ and company. Please, please, PJ! 
You realize that life goes fast
It's hard to make the good things last
You realize the sun doesn't go down
It's just an illusion caused by the world spinning 'round
~Do You Realize?, The Flaming Lips
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Aug 29 2015, 11:29am
Post #21 of 31
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thanks for this
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Aug 29 2015, 11:31am
Post #22 of 31
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If one of his best was the I an arry you from Mount Doom...
I wonder wich scenes would require such a emotional pitch for him saying that...
I would love to see the watchers at cirith ungol because makes Sams little quest longer and more epic
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Aug 29 2015, 11:33am
Post #23 of 31
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and surely someone would make a fan cut to put them there XD
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
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Dcole4
Rohan
Aug 30 2015, 2:32am
Post #24 of 31
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The Denethor Palantir stuff was never shot. Someone asked Daniel Falconer about it because an image surfaced of a Palantir in Minas Tirth. This turned out to be an image made specifically for trading cards, it was never a concept explored or shot on film.
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moreorless
Gondor
Aug 31 2015, 2:16am
Post #25 of 31
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That does maybe show you the weakness of such lists...
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If this list was pre TTT EE then I think its notable that it fails to mention a great deal of extra material that did end up being included. I would say as well that besides simply lacking knowledge of filmed scenes its always more likely that clearly defined scenes will get mentioned, Gandalf and the three Hunters around the campfire for example isn't something you can really sum up easily as showing a clear event from the books.
Again I would say the ironic thing is that a lot of the best material in the EE's is actually exactly along those lines, smaller personal character moments that don't deal with a unique event.
As I mentioned above my own ideal cut of the films would remove some of the "event" extra scenes and if the quality is there maybe add in a few more of these character moments. For all there length I still think the films have quite a brisk pace and could support such scenes.
(This post was edited by moreorless on Aug 31 2015, 2:17am)
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