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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Thorin, Kili, and the Elves...
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Avandel
Half-elven


Aug 28 2015, 12:18am

Post #26 of 38 (1041 views)
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*meh* [In reply to] Can't Post


  • Quote
    10:00 – There are plenty of deleted scenes to make an extended cut. “Days of footage.”



UnimpressedUnimpressedUnimpressed


Smaug the iron
Gondor

Aug 28 2015, 8:28am

Post #27 of 38 (1004 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
What is really weird - imho - is that the Dwarves at Erebor do not react to the fact that four of them are in the inferno while watching it. When Bilbo meets them he could have at least expressed some sort of relief (and even surprise) that they are all well..

Ori dose etlist say "Your alive" when the dwarfs reunite. And IMO the looks the dwarfs gives on Ravenhill ( especially Gloin,Bifur and Bombur) is enough to know they are in pain.


dormouse
Half-elven


Aug 28 2015, 1:27pm

Post #28 of 38 (964 views)
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Yes, I think you're absolutely right.... [In reply to] Can't Post

The dwarves DO react to the destruction of Laketown and their four friends. They react in silence - as you'd expect from dwarves, who aren't supposed to be a chatty race. But every expression, every gesture tells you what they are feeling.

It's similar to the scene with Bilbo and Gandalf after Thorin dies. People dealing with overwhelming emotion tend not to say very much.


lionoferebor
Rohan


Aug 29 2015, 6:43am

Post #29 of 38 (919 views)
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I understand what you're saying... [In reply to] Can't Post

however I was not referring to Thorin addressing Kili's infatuation with Tauriel - one elf - but rather addressing Kili's overall interest in elves as a whole...which could have taken place any time between Rivendell in AUJ and within Erebor in BOFA. I get the impression Kili's infatuation with the elves isn't something that just came about on the quest, that it's been there for sometime. That perhaps Thorin knows or suspects Kili has a thing for elves, but has chosen not to acknowledge it, hoping it would 'go away'. Maybe, in the terms of backstory, it has been a discussion in the past and the two have agreed to disagree on the matter.


lionoferebor
Rohan


Aug 29 2015, 6:57am

Post #30 of 38 (894 views)
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Even Thorin looked surprised [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
When Bilbo meets them he could have at least expressed some sort of relief (and even surprise) that they are all well.


I never thought of it before...not sure why...but it is odd that Bilbo does not act a little relieved/surprise to see the Lake-town four. Even dragon-sick Thorin looks a bit stunned to see them.


In Reply To
One could argue that Thorin is so caught up with reaching the mountain that he never realizes what influence their time in the Woodland Realm had on Kili... but imho it might have added a lot to the story if there would have been a conversation between them, for example on the boat on their way to Laketown... can they trust Men who are trading partners of the Elves? Kili intervening saying that Legolas and Tauriel helped them escape from the Orcs... Thorin arguing against it etc. Not a must-have but nice EE material...


As I explained in this post http://newboards.theonering.net/...atest_reply;so=DESC; I wasn't referring to Kili's infatuation with Tauriel but rather his interest in elves as a whole.


Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea

Aug 29 2015, 8:35am

Post #31 of 38 (879 views)
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Bilbo sees them coming from affar [In reply to] Can't Post

So the relief is not shown when he reaches the four

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true

Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer

Hobbit Cinema Marathon Hero



lionoferebor
Rohan


Aug 29 2015, 10:55am

Post #32 of 38 (861 views)
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Well yes, [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought the same too. However considering the recent tragedy the four were involved in at Lake-town - it's not like they came back from a picnic - regardless of seeing them from a distance, IMHO, it's only natural that upon reaching them Bilbo would expressed some relief before telling them about Thorin.


Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea

Aug 29 2015, 10:56am

Post #33 of 38 (858 views)
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yes I get that [In reply to] Can't Post

 

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true

Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer

Hobbit Cinema Marathon Hero



Avandel
Half-elven


Aug 29 2015, 5:20pm

Post #34 of 38 (827 views)
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Oddities...... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
However considering the recent tragedy the four were involved in at Lake-town - it's not like they came back from a picnic - regardless of seeing them from a distance, IMHO, it's only natural that upon reaching them Bilbo would expressed some relief before telling them about Thorin.


Although - I always took that scene as Bilbo basically being under tremendous strain over Thorin - when I really think about it, a lot of this for him (and I suppose that's the point about this remarkable race e.g. the Hobbit who are stronger than anyone knows except Gandalf) has been pretty overwhelming.

Martin Freeman/PJ I think handle this nicely as I love the look MF gives Thorin when he is standing with the four - looking grim and deeply troubled and like he didn't want the four to see this and you can see him setting his jaw. Never mind remembering Thorin putting a sword to him, "what have we done", and knowing that he has the Arkenstone.

E.g., I think it's one of those things, that Bilbo must have been worried about the four, but, well, OK, they are OK, and in the meantime Thorin is spiraling out of control "a sickness".

But, *sigh* - would I personally have handled the reunion like that? Oh, no. Not that PJ asked me, LOLCool. I would have had at least the dwarves MENTION that Fili, Kili, Oin, and Bofur are down there, or at least made a bit more of it. Maybe I would have had Thorin and some others - or maybe not Thorin, he's too devastated and the tendrils of dragon sickness are creeping in "everything I did, I did for them...) but maybe something interesting like Bifur and Dori and Nori either making plans or heading down the mountain to Laketown, to know what happened to their family members.

And I would have had a bigger reunion and Thorin not so gone - not right then, but maybe it's when Fili is explaining the events at Laketown Fili starts understanding something is terribly wrong here, and that's about when Bilbo explains there's a sickness here, and they all need to leave....

Which a far shortened version PJ actually did do, in general, kind of.

Tough dwarves may be, but they take the time to look after their fallen even in battle, and they feel strongly about their families and their race. If it has been "days" I wonder that Gloin etc. weren't looking for their brothers and so on.Unimpressed Fili & co. head immediately for the mountain, so why weren't the met on the slopes of Erebor or by the shores of the lake, by a party that was coming to look for them, or at least get a closer view?Unsure


Cirashala
Valinor


Aug 29 2015, 7:11pm

Post #35 of 38 (813 views)
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Thorin may not have allowed it. [In reply to] Can't Post

Not saying that they shouldn't have shown this conversation- they most definitely should have- but Thorin may have given them up for lost and focused on securing his hoard...erm, birthright...

Things may have gone down something like this (in fact, depending on how I handle Laketown and the separation in my fan fiction, it may well in my story, though obviously with more book narrative than simply dialogue given the medium):

Balin (or someone- maybe Gloin or a family member as their voice cracks with grief and emotion, possibly a bit of a tear or watery eyes): We need to find our kin- see if they survived the infern----

Thorin (interrupting very bluntly with little or no emotion): No.

Balin (eyes wide as he turns toward Thorin): But Thorin, we need to at least try to find them, and if they are dead we need to tend the bod---

Thorin (turns on his heel, eyes blazing with fury and voice devoid of emotion beyond the initial yell): ENOUGH! They are lost. (shocked faces and expressions- maybe a close up of Bilbo's stunned reaction at the Thorin he's never seen before). We need to tend our own. The gold of Erebor is finally ours once again, and we must protect it at all cost. (others look between themselves with expressions ranging from disappointment and shock (Balin) to grief (the 'brother' groups) to dismay and looks conveying that they feel the weight of leaving their fallen kin behind). This would also be a great lead in to his soliloquy of "Gold, beyond measure, beyond grief" that we see when the Laketown four show up-showing that he found his solace from grief in gold.

Thorin (unaware of the emotions in his company in reaction to his seemingly callous attitude): Come! We must find the Arkenstone. (Turns to head purposefully toward the treasury without a second glance, and the loyal to a fault dwarves slowly follow, obeying the command though you clearly see in their faces that they don't want to-maybe a few grief filled glances back toward Erebor's front gate and Laketown before they follow Thorin down to the treasury). This will also give weight and credence to Bilbo's statement that they are loyal to a fault- this demonstrates this very clearly.

This scene would be absolutely beautiful if the scene where Bilbo finds Balin crying follows- this could be Balin's first confirmation that Thorin has fallen into the dragon sickness, and the shock and disappointment gives way to overwhelming grief at the king that Thorin has become- not the king he could follow, but one drowning in greed and gold lust and with a heart that is becoming calloused and hard.

And this exchange would take what? Thirty seconds? Maybe forty? And solved that very dilemma.



(This post was edited by Cirashala on Aug 29 2015, 7:14pm)


Avandel
Half-elven


Aug 29 2015, 8:00pm

Post #36 of 38 (799 views)
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True enough IMO [In reply to] Can't Post

And perhaps Thorin (or Dwalin or Balin as de facto leaders) wouldn't have allowed it - perhaps wisely, as well, as he had spent time with men, and would probably have known that dwarves would NOT be welcome when an entire town had been scorched - that men, elves, dwarves in the same situation would be looking to lash out - and we do see that a bit with Alfrid.

Only a few more minutes of character building! - and too, I always whine that as the four approach Erebor, there is a second of Fili & co. looking up, but where Fili is concerned I will always fret over the wealth of richness IMO that could have been explored thereShocked - and as you say, I agree, those few more minutes could have been beautiful in a sad, tragic, noble way including your comments re dwarf "loyalty to a fault" (I think it's interesting tho, that even tho Bilbo is trusted, how many of the dwarves knew a raven had been sent to Dain? IMO intriguing!)

In the sense the focus as the four leave Laketown is on Kili and Tauriel (which IMO is actually beautifully done and appropriate as Tauriel did save Kili - and there's another thing - I can't believe Oin or Fili wouldn't have said something to her at some point, of thanks, which would have taken seconds),

my gawd the weight of responsibility that has just crashed onto Fili's shoulders - he is now ostensibly king and leader, his brother is not totally well, he is leading the party to who knows what at Erebor- scorched corpses if even that? - just a few second shot of Fili in the boat (of course not imitating Thorin's approach) - maybe with wise Oin saying something about leadership coming suddenly - or maybe the dwarves say nothing at all...because as far as they know, their family members are all gone - and then what? Stay at Erebor, go, try to reach Dain?...seems to me quite a lot would be going through Fili's mind that could have been at least mentioned.Frown

And it's been discussed before that Thorin's capacity for emotion and the potential/probable loss of Fili and Kili left him far more open to insidious dragon sickness - that as the TE BOFA opens his eyes are red - had he been crying? "everything I did, I did for them...." e.g. the "song" of gold sickness was all that was left, and maybe something Thorin fell into almost gratefully then. And IMO it would help underscore the line "gold beyond measure, beyond sorrow...and grief" which kind of hints at that kind of thing, but we don't, as the TE opens, exactly see Thorin in sorrow - again, it's just a hint.Unimpressed

But that scene was cut tho perhaps makes the EE.Unsure The TE tho sort of to me just makes it look like Thorin is losing it, relatively fast, and tho we see the hint of that in DOS, I just never got the impression that dragon sickness works that fast - it "seeps", usually.Unsure

Well - just a few more minutesTongueTongueTongue! Was kind of maddening (no pun intended) to learn of the scenes that got cut re Aidan and DeanFrownFrownFrown - OK, so some perhaps were like the Appendices healing scene with Tauriel that were versions of things, that in the end, were never going to work re narrative flow in the finished film. But surely some of that material could have been folded in?Frown


Ilmatar
Rohan


Aug 29 2015, 9:21pm

Post #37 of 38 (792 views)
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Fast-forward dragon sickness? [In reply to] Can't Post

 While agreeing that minutes more of character building would be sorely needed (especially for Fíli!) when the four left Laketown / arrived at Erebor, I had a random thought on dragon sickness:


Quote
The TE tho sort of to me just makes it look like Thorin is losing it, relatively fast, and tho we see the hint of that in DOS, I just never got the impression that dragon sickness works that fast - it "seeps", usually.Unsure


It might be that Thorin's condition progressed more swiftly than usual. While Thror succumbed to the sickness gradually, as his treasure kept growing and slowly increased its influence over him, Thorin had been away from the gold for such a long time that he was completely mesmerized when seeing it again in DOS. He was so taken by the treasure in his open-mouthed rapture it almost seemed intimate in a slightly disturbing way - emotional attachment in one fell swoop, over gold upon which a dragon had long brooded. If his dragon sickness got a powerful boost at that moment - and then that compounded with the grief over his supposed loss of nephews - maybe it hit him harder than would be expected. Unsure


lionoferebor
Rohan


Aug 30 2015, 3:39am

Post #38 of 38 (777 views)
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The plummet [In reply to] Can't Post

I always had this impression that Thror's descent in to the dragon-sickness was a slow process that happen over a long period of time. Thorin, however, consumed by sorrow and grief (perhaps even guilt) seems to have plummeted into it. A moment as you suggest would add another layer to Thorin's madness. Possibly a better understanding that his lack of concern isn't from greed or a cold heart, but rather from an agonizing pain that only the gold can ease.

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