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Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 28 2015, 12:18am
Post #26 of 38
(1041 views)
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Aug 28 2015, 8:28am
Post #27 of 38
(1004 views)
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What is really weird - imho - is that the Dwarves at Erebor do not react to the fact that four of them are in the inferno while watching it. When Bilbo meets them he could have at least expressed some sort of relief (and even surprise) that they are all well.. Ori dose etlist say "Your alive" when the dwarfs reunite. And IMO the looks the dwarfs gives on Ravenhill ( especially Gloin,Bifur and Bombur) is enough to know they are in pain.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 28 2015, 1:27pm
Post #28 of 38
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Yes, I think you're absolutely right....
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The dwarves DO react to the destruction of Laketown and their four friends. They react in silence - as you'd expect from dwarves, who aren't supposed to be a chatty race. But every expression, every gesture tells you what they are feeling. It's similar to the scene with Bilbo and Gandalf after Thorin dies. People dealing with overwhelming emotion tend not to say very much.
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lionoferebor
Rohan
Aug 29 2015, 6:43am
Post #29 of 38
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I understand what you're saying...
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however I was not referring to Thorin addressing Kili's infatuation with Tauriel - one elf - but rather addressing Kili's overall interest in elves as a whole...which could have taken place any time between Rivendell in AUJ and within Erebor in BOFA. I get the impression Kili's infatuation with the elves isn't something that just came about on the quest, that it's been there for sometime. That perhaps Thorin knows or suspects Kili has a thing for elves, but has chosen not to acknowledge it, hoping it would 'go away'. Maybe, in the terms of backstory, it has been a discussion in the past and the two have agreed to disagree on the matter.
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lionoferebor
Rohan
Aug 29 2015, 6:57am
Post #30 of 38
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When Bilbo meets them he could have at least expressed some sort of relief (and even surprise) that they are all well. I never thought of it before...not sure why...but it is odd that Bilbo does not act a little relieved/surprise to see the Lake-town four. Even dragon-sick Thorin looks a bit stunned to see them.
One could argue that Thorin is so caught up with reaching the mountain that he never realizes what influence their time in the Woodland Realm had on Kili... but imho it might have added a lot to the story if there would have been a conversation between them, for example on the boat on their way to Laketown... can they trust Men who are trading partners of the Elves? Kili intervening saying that Legolas and Tauriel helped them escape from the Orcs... Thorin arguing against it etc. Not a must-have but nice EE material... As I explained in this post http://newboards.theonering.net/...atest_reply;so=DESC; I wasn't referring to Kili's infatuation with Tauriel but rather his interest in elves as a whole.
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Aug 29 2015, 8:35am
Post #31 of 38
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Bilbo sees them coming from affar
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So the relief is not shown when he reaches the four
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer Hobbit Cinema Marathon Hero
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lionoferebor
Rohan
Aug 29 2015, 10:55am
Post #32 of 38
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I thought the same too. However considering the recent tragedy the four were involved in at Lake-town - it's not like they came back from a picnic - regardless of seeing them from a distance, IMHO, it's only natural that upon reaching them Bilbo would expressed some relief before telling them about Thorin.
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Aug 29 2015, 10:56am
Post #33 of 38
(858 views)
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The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer Hobbit Cinema Marathon Hero
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Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 29 2015, 5:20pm
Post #34 of 38
(827 views)
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However considering the recent tragedy the four were involved in at Lake-town - it's not like they came back from a picnic - regardless of seeing them from a distance, IMHO, it's only natural that upon reaching them Bilbo would expressed some relief before telling them about Thorin. Although - I always took that scene as Bilbo basically being under tremendous strain over Thorin - when I really think about it, a lot of this for him (and I suppose that's the point about this remarkable race e.g. the Hobbit who are stronger than anyone knows except Gandalf) has been pretty overwhelming. Martin Freeman/PJ I think handle this nicely as I love the look MF gives Thorin when he is standing with the four - looking grim and deeply troubled and like he didn't want the four to see this and you can see him setting his jaw. Never mind remembering Thorin putting a sword to him, "what have we done", and knowing that he has the Arkenstone. E.g., I think it's one of those things, that Bilbo must have been worried about the four, but, well, OK, they are OK, and in the meantime Thorin is spiraling out of control "a sickness". But, *sigh* - would I personally have handled the reunion like that? Oh, no. Not that PJ asked me, LOL. I would have had at least the dwarves MENTION that Fili, Kili, Oin, and Bofur are down there, or at least made a bit more of it. Maybe I would have had Thorin and some others - or maybe not Thorin, he's too devastated and the tendrils of dragon sickness are creeping in "everything I did, I did for them...) but maybe something interesting like Bifur and Dori and Nori either making plans or heading down the mountain to Laketown, to know what happened to their family members. And I would have had a bigger reunion and Thorin not so gone - not right then, but maybe it's when Fili is explaining the events at Laketown Fili starts understanding something is terribly wrong here, and that's about when Bilbo explains there's a sickness here, and they all need to leave.... Which a far shortened version PJ actually did do, in general, kind of. Tough dwarves may be, but they take the time to look after their fallen even in battle, and they feel strongly about their families and their race. If it has been "days" I wonder that Gloin etc. weren't looking for their brothers and so on. Fili & co. head immediately for the mountain, so why weren't the met on the slopes of Erebor or by the shores of the lake, by a party that was coming to look for them, or at least get a closer view?
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Cirashala
Valinor
Aug 29 2015, 7:11pm
Post #35 of 38
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Thorin may not have allowed it.
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Not saying that they shouldn't have shown this conversation- they most definitely should have- but Thorin may have given them up for lost and focused on securing his hoard...erm, birthright... Things may have gone down something like this (in fact, depending on how I handle Laketown and the separation in my fan fiction, it may well in my story, though obviously with more book narrative than simply dialogue given the medium): Balin (or someone- maybe Gloin or a family member as their voice cracks with grief and emotion, possibly a bit of a tear or watery eyes): We need to find our kin- see if they survived the infern---- Thorin (interrupting very bluntly with little or no emotion): No. Balin (eyes wide as he turns toward Thorin): But Thorin, we need to at least try to find them, and if they are dead we need to tend the bod--- Thorin (turns on his heel, eyes blazing with fury and voice devoid of emotion beyond the initial yell): ENOUGH! They are lost. (shocked faces and expressions- maybe a close up of Bilbo's stunned reaction at the Thorin he's never seen before). We need to tend our own. The gold of Erebor is finally ours once again, and we must protect it at all cost. (others look between themselves with expressions ranging from disappointment and shock (Balin) to grief (the 'brother' groups) to dismay and looks conveying that they feel the weight of leaving their fallen kin behind). This would also be a great lead in to his soliloquy of "Gold, beyond measure, beyond grief" that we see when the Laketown four show up-showing that he found his solace from grief in gold. Thorin (unaware of the emotions in his company in reaction to his seemingly callous attitude): Come! We must find the Arkenstone. (Turns to head purposefully toward the treasury without a second glance, and the loyal to a fault dwarves slowly follow, obeying the command though you clearly see in their faces that they don't want to-maybe a few grief filled glances back toward Erebor's front gate and Laketown before they follow Thorin down to the treasury). This will also give weight and credence to Bilbo's statement that they are loyal to a fault- this demonstrates this very clearly. This scene would be absolutely beautiful if the scene where Bilbo finds Balin crying follows- this could be Balin's first confirmation that Thorin has fallen into the dragon sickness, and the shock and disappointment gives way to overwhelming grief at the king that Thorin has become- not the king he could follow, but one drowning in greed and gold lust and with a heart that is becoming calloused and hard. And this exchange would take what? Thirty seconds? Maybe forty? And solved that very dilemma.
(This post was edited by Cirashala on Aug 29 2015, 7:14pm)
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Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 29 2015, 8:00pm
Post #36 of 38
(799 views)
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And perhaps Thorin (or Dwalin or Balin as de facto leaders) wouldn't have allowed it - perhaps wisely, as well, as he had spent time with men, and would probably have known that dwarves would NOT be welcome when an entire town had been scorched - that men, elves, dwarves in the same situation would be looking to lash out - and we do see that a bit with Alfrid. Only a few more minutes of character building! - and too, I always whine that as the four approach Erebor, there is a second of Fili & co. looking up, but where Fili is concerned I will always fret over the wealth of richness IMO that could have been explored there - and as you say, I agree, those few more minutes could have been beautiful in a sad, tragic, noble way including your comments re dwarf "loyalty to a fault" (I think it's interesting tho, that even tho Bilbo is trusted, how many of the dwarves knew a raven had been sent to Dain? IMO intriguing!) In the sense the focus as the four leave Laketown is on Kili and Tauriel (which IMO is actually beautifully done and appropriate as Tauriel did save Kili - and there's another thing - I can't believe Oin or Fili wouldn't have said something to her at some point, of thanks, which would have taken seconds), my gawd the weight of responsibility that has just crashed onto Fili's shoulders - he is now ostensibly king and leader, his brother is not totally well, he is leading the party to who knows what at Erebor- scorched corpses if even that? - just a few second shot of Fili in the boat (of course not imitating Thorin's approach) - maybe with wise Oin saying something about leadership coming suddenly - or maybe the dwarves say nothing at all...because as far as they know, their family members are all gone - and then what? Stay at Erebor, go, try to reach Dain?...seems to me quite a lot would be going through Fili's mind that could have been at least mentioned. And it's been discussed before that Thorin's capacity for emotion and the potential/probable loss of Fili and Kili left him far more open to insidious dragon sickness - that as the TE BOFA opens his eyes are red - had he been crying? "everything I did, I did for them...." e.g. the "song" of gold sickness was all that was left, and maybe something Thorin fell into almost gratefully then. And IMO it would help underscore the line "gold beyond measure, beyond sorrow...and grief" which kind of hints at that kind of thing, but we don't, as the TE opens, exactly see Thorin in sorrow - again, it's just a hint. But that scene was cut tho perhaps makes the EE. The TE tho sort of to me just makes it look like Thorin is losing it, relatively fast, and tho we see the hint of that in DOS, I just never got the impression that dragon sickness works that fast - it "seeps", usually. Well - just a few more minutes! Was kind of maddening (no pun intended) to learn of the scenes that got cut re Aidan and Dean - OK, so some perhaps were like the Appendices healing scene with Tauriel that were versions of things, that in the end, were never going to work re narrative flow in the finished film. But surely some of that material could have been folded in?
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lionoferebor
Rohan
Aug 30 2015, 3:39am
Post #38 of 38
(777 views)
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I always had this impression that Thror's descent in to the dragon-sickness was a slow process that happen over a long period of time. Thorin, however, consumed by sorrow and grief (perhaps even guilt) seems to have plummeted into it. A moment as you suggest would add another layer to Thorin's madness. Possibly a better understanding that his lack of concern isn't from greed or a cold heart, but rather from an agonizing pain that only the gold can ease.
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