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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 27 2015, 8:15am
Post #51 of 58
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The difference there is in the importance of the victim, not the killer.....
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Smaug is at the heart and centre of The Hobbit. No Smaug, no story. His death is a pivotal moment: the battle will turn on how it happens, and when, and by whose hand. There was never any question of Legolas killing Smaug, and if you work backwards you can see why. Someone needed to lead the army of men in the final battle. Bard may come from nowhere in the book but that's irrelevant - it's killing Smaug that gives him the authority to lead the army. There's nothing else as spectacular for him to do so there was never any question of Legolas or anyone else killing Smaug in his place. Bard had to do it. They made changes to the way it was done, dropping the thrush, which played a practical role and also highlighted Bard's descent from Girion, and replacing it with Bain - a very different way of highlighting the line of Girion. But Bard was essential - I knew there was no way they would change that, so the possibility didn't arise for me and I didn't worry about it.
Bolg, on the other hand, is a victim who comes out of nowhere in the book. He plays no part beforehand, has no introduction beyond Gandalf's reference to his relationship to Azog. He isn't essential to the story - any orc could have done what he does and the fact that it's Beorn who kills him doesn't have any consequences for Beorn. Changing that didn't change the essential story of The Hobbit - the story of Bilbo, the dwarves, the dragon and the Mountain. It reduced Beorn's role, which was a pity, though for myself it's not the killing of Bolg that was a loss: I would have liked to see Beorn carry Thorin. But adaptation means change and that was a change they made.
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Arannir
Valinor
Aug 27 2015, 8:26am
Post #52 of 58
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Everyone knows I am a harsh critic of some of what went down in these movies... but I agree with dormouse that PJ does not have to defend himself, he does not have to be coerced to do anything and that he shows more openess than most film-makers when it comes to their film-making process.
This is why I stepped into this thread in the first place.
What I do hope to hear from him about when it comes to BotFA is what he felt dissatisfied with when it comes to the TE of BotFA (as it seems that he has stated that himself several times)... I assume it will be some of the bigger cuts (Dain, Dwarves vs. Elves?) but potentially also the DG scene. He has usually always addressed these kind of things - and they often seemed to be pretty important to him.
That is why I found it so weird that one (not you, dormouse) would argue that he should not even start commenting or spending too much time on addressing such discussions and start research to prove that no such discussions happened outside of a tiny minority.
I always thought that his openness and willingness to give insights on his work were things most people appreciated, whether they liked the movies or not - exactly because he did never shy away from mentioning the "critical" points.
It seems it is to some people already too much to accept that some of the critical stuff was discussed beyond the borders of TORN - although that is really indisputable, particularly since PJ & PB have alrady addressed some of them. That does not mean that they accept them as problems or issues... it just shows that there is a certain level of awareness on their side regarding the discussions.
I for one am totally sure the EE will once again give many insights - more than one would get for most other movies.
Of course, some people won't be satissfied with some of th insights and explanations given for certain decisions... I do not think it will make me make like the death of Fili and Kili more to know why they did it. But it is interesting, it makes it all more comprehensible - even if one still disagrees in the end.
There is and imho should never be a right or entitlement to these insights, commentaries and remarks by the film-makers. The fact that PJ is as candid as he is is very respectable, imho and certainly an exception in this industry.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Aug 27 2015, 8:41am)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 27 2015, 8:44am
Post #53 of 58
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Assuming that you are referring to me.
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Then no.
You mentioned that you felt the issues typically raised by fans were also raised by many professional critics (and offered specific examples).
Upon going to actually re-read reviews, I found that this was not the case.
I'm not sure why we would want to misremember facts or work off statements which are simply not true.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 27 2015, 12:52pm
Post #54 of 58
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Bolg, on the other hand, is a victim who comes out of nowhere in the book. He plays no part beforehand, has no introduction beyond Gandalf's reference to his relationship to Azog. He isn't essential to the story - any orc could have done what he does and the fact that it's Beorn who kills him doesn't have any consequences for Beorn. Changing that didn't change the essential story of The Hobbit - the story of Bilbo, the dwarves, the dragon and the Mountain. It reduced Beorn's role, which was a pity, though for myself it's not the killing of Bolg that was a loss: I would have liked to see Beorn carry Thorin. But adaptation means change and that was a change they made.
You're right. At the same time the Battle of Five Armies (in the book) represents a pivotal moment in the evolution of the character of Beorn. It is not the killing of Bolg that is of consequence, though, but Beorn's removal of the wounded Thorin from the battlefield. This shows that the Skin-changer is fully in control of himself both as a Man and as a beast. He need not keep himself isolated from society and is afterwards able to take his place as a leader of the Men of the Anduin Vales. He is even able to wed and sire children (at least one son).
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 27 2015, 1:20pm
Post #55 of 58
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That's a very interesting way of looking at it....
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... and you're right. The battle does have lasting consequences for Beorn, though they really fall outside the scope of Bilbo's story.
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Arannir
Valinor
Aug 27 2015, 1:28pm
Post #56 of 58
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Agreed on Beorn carrying Thorin's body.
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That is the kind of "little scenes" I never thought would be lost in the movie version and that we are talking in the other thread... because it is so small and yet so effective in its story-telling.
It isn't just emotional (and heart-breaking). It also gives closure to Beorn's arc and a layer to his character.
I think we would not even need the story of Beorn's future being told (I agree that would go too far)... maybe just Gandalf telling Bilbo he does not have to be scared of Beorn in bear form anymore while Thorin's body is carried away... that already tells a lot.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Aug 27 2015, 1:30pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 27 2015, 2:21pm
Post #57 of 58
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Yes, that does go well beyond the scope of Bilbo's tale and I don't really expect it to be addressed in TH:BotFA. But some action indicating Beorn's achievement of self-control would be nice.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Goldeneye
Lorien
Aug 27 2015, 2:35pm
Post #58 of 58
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I watched that entire clip with Peter Jackson at Exeter last night, it was very interesting! In my original comment, I was not suggesting that PJ is or was dishonest. I know he is more forthright than most filmmakers about his behind-the-scenes experiences. In the case of the Hobbit trilogy and especially BOFA, he has hinted here and there about some of the troubles before/during/after production while remaining guarded about full details. Which I totally understand- these are his films and he wants to portray them in the best light possible. But just watching that Exeter interview along with some other interviews with him since BOFA, he just really seems different- like very drained or spaced out. I think maybe even more than LOTR, the Hobbit movies took a lot out of him and I am just curious to hear the full story.
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