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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
will Peter Jackson address any of the controversies in his commentary
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1924
Bree

Aug 26 2015, 5:20am

Post #1 of 58 (3202 views)
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will Peter Jackson address any of the controversies in his commentary Can't Post

while I feel he shouldn't bash his own film or anything some of the controversies like the Alfrid complaints and others might be hard to ignore


Arannir
Valinor


Aug 26 2015, 6:52am

Post #2 of 58 (3055 views)
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Controversies [In reply to] Can't Post

He never shied away from it before, at least.

He openly discussed things that didn't go down well with some people in the LotR commentaries and appendices (Arwen, Faramir, things he didn't like himself etc.). He also talked about the character of Tauriel on the DoS commentary, as well as the healing of Kili. He also explained in detail how the DoS climax came together and how he approached it.

I am sure he will adress scenes such as the death of the two brothers or the lack of Beorn. Whether he will address them as a known (to him) controversy I don't know but I am sure he and PB will address them as film-making decisions.

I know some people think it is sacrilege to even mention the word controversy in connection to these movies... However, it was never an issue for PJ. He was always happy to acknowledge such discussions and contribute to them. He is confident enough to stand behind his decision while not ignoring or belittle the people disagreeing.

That is why I have a very high respect for him and am looking forward to these final appendices and commentaries, even if I have deep issues with the movie itself.



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



(This post was edited by Arannir on Aug 26 2015, 6:58am)


SafeUnderHill
Rohan

Aug 26 2015, 7:06am

Post #3 of 58 (3036 views)
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Probably [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
while I feel he shouldn't bash his own film or anything some of the controversies like the Alfrid complaints and others might be hard to ignore


Like he discussed the burping gags in AUJ commentary.

In fact Philippa Boyens already discussed alfrid on the Empire Movies podcast. She said American audiences didn't tend to get the humour, it's a very British sense of humour. Which I understand, since I though he was great. Fun unexpected breath of fresh air in the film.


Glorfindela
Valinor


Aug 26 2015, 9:21am

Post #4 of 58 (2948 views)
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Well, good [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
She said American audiences didn't tend to get the humour, it's a very British sense of humour. Which I understand, since I though he was great. Fun unexpected breath of fresh air in the film.


I'm so glad you enjoyed it this from a Brit. who absolutely detests it.UnimpressedCrazy


Goldeneye
Lorien


Aug 26 2015, 11:54am

Post #5 of 58 (2858 views)
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Has he directly addressed the criticism of the Hobbit to date? [In reply to] Can't Post

I know he and Phillipa have hinted at some of the audience unhappiness with the Hobbit trilogy, but he hasn't been as candid with his answers. To be honest it's sounded like he's in denial about the many issues with these films, compared to how willing he was to talk about the flaws in LOTR. So while I'm hoping he brings some of these things up in the BOFA EE commentary, I don't think he'll dish much out. Instead he will focus on how happy he was to include more Legolas stunts and how the addition of Tauriel will make some 9-year old girl feel empowered.
Perhaps one day soon, PJ will get coerced into telling us the honest story of what really happened with the Hobbit films. Whether that's in a Reddit AMA, a Q&A at some convention, or perhaps a magazine/video interview. I am not sure we'll see much of this in the BOFA EE materials.


Dcole4
Rohan

Aug 26 2015, 12:01pm

Post #6 of 58 (2854 views)
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The Tauriel empowerment thing is nuts... [In reply to] Can't Post

I have no idea how a 9 year old is supposed to feel empowered by Tauriel. Here's a super cool, realistic (in the Middle Earth sense) female character, who is part of the guards of Mirkwood, and who alone is worried about the threat of Dol Guldur and leaves to do something about it... and they spend all of the third movie with her crying about Kili. They couldn't have just had a female character exists in this world without a love story? Why couldn't she just sympathize with the dwarves, did she have to instantly go gaga over the hot one. I don't care that Tauriel was an invention, it is how she's used. I wouldn't mind if she had a butt-load of screentime, it's the fact that they've completely undermined their character with a sappy, undercooked, demeaning love story that sucks the strength out of her.

"Why does it hurt so much?"

...Because it was poorly written!


(This post was edited by Dcole4 on Aug 26 2015, 12:02pm)


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Aug 26 2015, 12:09pm

Post #7 of 58 (2840 views)
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Now Eowyn, that's a good role model... [In reply to] Can't Post

PJ wasn't afraid to face sexism head-on in LotR and have a character fight against that discrimination. The men didn't want Eowyn to fight and she went out of her way to prove them wrong. Perfect strong female character.

It's as if the two trilogies are made by completely different people Mad


(This post was edited by QuackingTroll on Aug 26 2015, 12:09pm)


adt100
Rohan


Aug 26 2015, 12:36pm

Post #8 of 58 (2819 views)
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Regardless of the character people would still have complained.... [In reply to] Can't Post

'Not in the book' etc etc.


Dcole4
Rohan

Aug 26 2015, 12:42pm

Post #9 of 58 (2799 views)
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True.. [In reply to] Can't Post

But I think far fewer would have, I for one wouldn't. I love the idea of Tauriel as a character, and think EL was a great choice. But her dialogue, especially in BOTFA, was atrocious. It was a complete devolution for the character. I think most fans would have been on board with her.

But to be honest, in hindsight. I wish Legolas was not included at all because 1) WB obviously paid OB a buttload of cash and wanted to see him used, and 2) PJ seems to be in love with finding new ways for Legolas to audition for the Justice League. I think the "Marketing" appeal of the character meant he was shoe-horned into twice as many scenes as he deserved. I wish they had handled him as tastefully and carefully as Saruman, Galadriel and Elrond. Instead he's given way more thought than 90% of the dwarves.


lionoferebor
Rohan


Aug 26 2015, 12:47pm

Post #10 of 58 (2782 views)
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Coming from an American... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In fact Philippa Boyens already discussed alfrid on the Empire Movies podcast. She said American audiences didn't tend to get the humour, it's a very British sense of humour. Which I understand, since I though he was great. Fun unexpected breath of fresh air in the film.


It wasn't that I did not understand the humor surrounding Alfrid, because I did. It was that there was too much of it. After the first couple of times it was no longer funny. Unsure And that seems to be the general consensus among fans of all nationalities - at least here on TORN.


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Aug 26 2015, 12:53pm

Post #11 of 58 (2785 views)
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Hopefully not much. [In reply to] Can't Post

It would give far too much credence to a tiny minority.

It also probably wouldn't make much sense to the majority of viewers. It's very unlikely that they are even aware of these niche concerns, let alone are concerned about them.


(This post was edited by Spriggan on Aug 26 2015, 1:03pm)


NecromancerRising
Gondor


Aug 26 2015, 12:59pm

Post #12 of 58 (2764 views)
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LOL, [In reply to] Can't Post

Spot on as alwaysLaugh

"You cannot find peace by avoiding life"


Arannir
Valinor


Aug 26 2015, 1:05pm

Post #13 of 58 (2757 views)
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You are ignoring... [In reply to] Can't Post

... that PJ and Co addressed issues of the "minority" many times and in different forms. Where is the harm? It is what commentaries are for.

Not to excuse themselves but to explain. That is what many people and fans like PJ for, even those not always happy with his creative output.


Funny, how confident and open PJ & Co discuss all that and yet you seem to feel this need to discredit all critics as quickly as possible as ridiculous, tiny minority and what not. The cirticism that was directed at the Hobbit movies is not just brought forward by some delusional fan minority. A big part of professional critics brought similar issues forward as many fans, the movies lost viewers in several markets after the first installment, etc.

This does not mean as you suggested I wanted to imply last time that these movies were generally disliked. Far from it - you are very right to point at BO numbers and DVD sales to show that they must have been liked by a large part of the audience. Sure. But that does not mean that a lot of people didn't also have criticism when it comes to these movies.

And given PJ's track record and openess when it comes to creative decisions in the past, why wouldn't it make sense to address that in a commentary as he did before? It is what made especially the LotR commentaries so valueable (I remember how many people better understood the change of Faramir's arc and character after the writers' insights on their decision-making and thought process).



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



(This post was edited by Arannir on Aug 26 2015, 1:09pm)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Aug 26 2015, 1:16pm

Post #14 of 58 (2720 views)
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I'm not ignoring it. [In reply to] Can't Post

I just don't think it's a useful thing to spend much time on.

I would also completely disagree that critics brought forward the same issues as the niche minority. I would argue critics issues were markedly different and, in many cases, directly in opposition.


dormouse
Half-elven


Aug 26 2015, 2:23pm

Post #15 of 58 (2663 views)
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But they didn't, though...... [In reply to] Can't Post

At least, all the professional criticism that I've seen (from paid commentators on TV programmes, in the press and so on) had very different priorities when it came to The Hobbit. The pacing of the first film, the technical innovations - 48 frames per second and so on. I didn't see one professional reviewer worry about Alfrid, Legolas or Tauriel, for example...

Peter Jackson is free to comment on whatever he likes on the commentary track and in the extras and I'm sure he will. I doubt if anyone here has any problem with that at all. I'm sure we will see him and Philippa Boyens discussing the changes they made to the story and the decisions they've made about staging the various scenes as they've done before, and for some viewers that will enlarge their understanding of the film (others will carry on cheerfully rubbishing everything the pair of them say, but then, that's show business!)

I don't think anyone is trying to discredit anything. What some of us do pick up on is the assumption that a few vocal posters on an internet forum constitute some kind of coherent majority whose voice should be heard. Just look at the OP's question: 'Will PJ address the controversies...' - as if there were a defined set of problems with the film which all recognised and agreed upon. Now, you know that's not true as well as I do - when I saw that I didn't have a clue which particular set of 'controversies' he or she meant. But the assumption was that we would all know and there's an unconscious arrogance in that.

Peter Jackson isn't answerable to any of us. He does answer and talk about what he does because he likes giving people insights into the film-making process. If you haven't listened already, try listening to his Oxford interview linked in this thread - says a lot about his attitude to his work: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=867709#867709


Arannir
Valinor


Aug 26 2015, 2:37pm

Post #16 of 58 (2633 views)
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You didn't discredit anyone. [In reply to] Can't Post

And I know you never would... the discredit-part was directly addressed at another user who's attitude to some critical posts over the last time have really irritated me.

Other than that - I agree with most of the other things you say (apart from the reviews where I found quite some overlapping criticism such as physics, color grading, characterization, resolution etc.), especially regarding PJ's attitude and how he discusses "issues" or simply decisions he made on a movie project.

As I said he does not have to defend them or aknowledge them as being problematic - he usually has a good reason why he thinks they aren't that problematic at all (as he did in the case of Tauriel or Faramir, for example). And I am looking forward listening to him and PB explain their thopught process on the commentary.

I do not think the OP meant ill when he talked about "controversies". Discussions have been pretty controversial on here and I just assumed he or she was referring to them without wanting to put the movies down by that or declaring them as universally agreed upon. But I can see where you are coming from.

Thanks for the link - I know the interview and as I said in my earlier post - that is exactly what I like PJ as a film-maker for. I never wanted him to defend his movies or feel answerable to any of us. I just meant that I am sure he is aware of what some people perceive as controversial and will likely make a comment on it - because he has done so several times in the past.



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



(This post was edited by Arannir on Aug 26 2015, 2:41pm)


Goldeneye
Lorien


Aug 26 2015, 2:38pm

Post #17 of 58 (2627 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

I honestly wouldn't have minded Tauriel if they handled her character better. Evangeline Lilly did a great job with the material she had to work with...I think we can all agree she at least looked the part. If they hadn't forced her into a silly love triangle I don't think people would have griped so much. Like you said, it was a complete devolution of her character. Especially after PJ and Phillipa made such a fuss about having a "strong female character" that young girls could look up to!

Having just a cameo for Legolas would have been perfect. Seeing him in Mirkwood makes sense and the Gimli/Gloin joke was ace. I could even stretch a bit further and understand a brief appearance at the Battle of Five Armies. Unfortunately no restraint was shown with his character and his inclusion cheapened the 2nd and 3rd films.


Eldorion
Gondor


Aug 26 2015, 2:39pm

Post #18 of 58 (2624 views)
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Do people from the film crew still read the Tolkien forums? [In reply to] Can't Post

Cause if they do, it's pretty implausible to suggest that they're unaware of the various controversies. I mean, setting aside them getting asked about this stuff in interviews, it's kind of hard to miss in the forums. And while most professional reviewers are more restrained it's noticeable there too.

Not saying PJ should be fighting a defensive battle during the commentary track but I wouldn't be surprised if he talks about some of this stuff. He did on the LOTR commentaries, anyway.



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...



Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Aug 26 2015, 2:46pm

Post #19 of 58 (2616 views)
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Surely not! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it is a weird fiction to imagine that posting on such forums has any influence over the production team. On the sporadic occasions anyone has, it appears, and seems entirely credible, that they stop very soon. Thank goodness!

That said, I was actually talking about other EE viewers, rather than the filmmakers.


Eldorion
Gondor


Aug 26 2015, 3:00pm

Post #20 of 58 (2591 views)
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I'm not saying we have influence [In reply to] Can't Post

Just that they're aware of the general tone and certain common refrains. A number of people from the cast and crew discussed reading message boards back during LOTR and PJ and Boyens took opportunities on the DVDs to respond to common arguments and complaints. They've been really good about engaging with fans in general.



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...



(This post was edited by Eldorion on Aug 26 2015, 3:00pm)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Aug 26 2015, 3:02pm

Post #21 of 58 (2586 views)
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I would say that is a form of influence [In reply to] Can't Post

But that's by the by.

As I say, I am not aware of anything recent or not pretty hastily abandoned (as with GDT).


Eldorion
Gondor


Aug 26 2015, 3:07pm

Post #22 of 58 (2573 views)
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Okay... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think there's a big difference between reading people's responses to a film and using those responses as a basis for making creative decisions. The only example of the latter I can think of is the Xenarwen controversy, but I don't think that was ever the norm.

We do know that they follow Tolkien blogs/videos at least occasionally; cf the back and forth Happy Hobbit reaction videos.



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...



Arannir
Valinor


Aug 26 2015, 3:11pm

Post #23 of 58 (2562 views)
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Yap. [In reply to] Can't Post

I also never wanted to imply that they made decision because of what they may have heard or read somewhere in letters, emails or on the internet. Nor should they.

I just wanted to say that they are very obviously aware of some of the discussions going on. That isn't disputable. For example, they specifically mention the discussions surrounding the character of Tauriel in the EE commentary of DoS.



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Aug 26 2015, 3:26pm

Post #24 of 58 (2551 views)
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I wouldn't say they are the same thing. [In reply to] Can't Post

But I would say access to present one's views (where others do not have equal access) is a form of influence. It's the basis of the lobbying industry, for one.
But this is just for interest - for clarity, though, it wasn't actually the group I was referring to.


(This post was edited by Spriggan on Aug 26 2015, 3:40pm)


Eldorion
Gondor


Aug 26 2015, 3:29pm

Post #25 of 58 (2542 views)
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Thanks for the confirmation [In reply to] Can't Post

I haven't watched any of the Hobbit EE commentaries yet so I appreciate you mentioning that they mentioned this in DOS the same way they did with the LOTR commentaries. Wink



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...



(This post was edited by Eldorion on Aug 26 2015, 3:30pm)

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