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Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea
Apr 8 2008, 2:25pm
Post #1 of 23
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TTT: The Departure of Boromir II
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Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli search the dead Orcs to find souveniers of the battle to put in the boat with Boromir. Aragorn finds Merry and Pippin's swords and Legolas refreshes his supply of arrows. They also discover different types of Orcs -- some were larger than typical Orcs, carried swords instead of scimitars and larger bows. They have a white hand insignia on their shields and an S-rune on their helmets.
1. Are swords better weapons than scimitars? If so, why?
Gimli guesses that the S stands for Sauron, but Aragorn and Legolas disagree, saying that Sauron does not use his right name.
2. Why doesn't Sauron use his right name, and what name does he use?
The three remaining members of the Company conclude that the Orcs came from Saruman, though they are puzzled at how Saruman learned about their expedition.
3. Did this ever puzzle you?
After bearing Boromir to the shore, Legolas and Gimli went to get the boats. They return, reporting that one boat was missing. Then, laying Boromir out in one boat with his possessions around him and the weapons of his enemies beneath his feet, they tow him out on the water with the other boat and release him, watching until the boat went over the falls of Rauros.
4. Fangirl moment: How many of you saw the LotR movie exhibit with the model of Boromir laid out in the boat? Wasn't that awesome?
5. How high is Rauros falls? I had always envisioned Niagara falls or Angel falls or even Multnomah (Oregon) falls (the only one I've actually seen in person). However it seems more likely that Tolkien had Rhine falls in mind. And just because I like this picture, here is a "paddleable" falls in Australia. Comments or other pictures to share?
Where's Frodo?
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Apr 8 2008, 5:03pm
Post #2 of 23
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1. Are swords better weapons than scimitars? If so, why?
I've always preferred scimitars, myself. They're designed to twist around the other guy's defenses, and rely on cleverness rather than strength. On the other hand, the Long Sword gives a brute advantage to a larger, stronger warrior. Scimitars do better for smallish goblins, whereas swords would better suit big Uruk-Hai.
2. Why doesn't Sauron use his right name, and what name does he use?
For the same reason Lord Voldemort prefers to be called "He Who Must Not Be Named." What you don't dare name strikes fear into your heart. He doesn't want anyone taking his name in vain because he wants to be God. What the orcs actually call him is "Lugburz" (does anybody know what that means?) or "The Eye".
The three remaining members of the Company conclude that the Orcs came from Saruman, though they are puzzled at how Saruman learned about their expedition.
3. Did this ever puzzle you?
Not exactly, although what I thought was the answer turned out to be wrong. I thought that the Uruk-Hai had captured Gollum (abetted later by Grishnakh apparently knowing Gollum well.) I wondered, the first time I read this, where they might have stashed him when they carried off Merry and Pippin--did they kill him? Only later did I realize that this never happened, and that instead Saruman spied on them by Palantir.
4. Fangirl moment: How many of you saw the LotR movie exhibit with the model of Boromir laid out in the boat? Wasn't that awesome?
Sorry, didn't see it.
5. How high is Rauros falls? I had always envisioned Niagara falls or Angel falls or even Multnomah (Oregon) falls (the only one I've actually seen in person). However it seems more likely that Tolkien had Rhine falls in mind. And just because I like this picture, here is a "paddleable" falls in Australia. Comments or other pictures to share?
Actually, I pictured it pretty much like the movie later showed it.
One comment of my own:
As a child, reading about Gimli muttering, "Maybe there are no right answers" darn near traumatized me! Until then I had naively assumed that all situations have some right answer, if only you work at finding it; although often enough I appeared to wind up in situations that no matter what I did was wrong, I figured I had merely missed the right answer. But then Gimli's words seemed to blaze up from the page with a dreadful new thought: some situations have no good solution. It took me years to get used to that idea--and years more to realize that Gimli was, in fact, wrong after all. There is always a morally right solution, even if there is no functional solution.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on Apr 8 2008, 5:04pm)
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visualweasel
Rohan
Apr 8 2008, 5:06pm
Post #3 of 23
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1. Are swords better weapons than scimitars? If so, why?
Swords are better for thrusting and for precision evisceration; scimitars are better for hacking, slashing, and crude dismemberment.
4. Fangirl moment: How many of you saw the LotR movie exhibit with the model of Boromir laid out in the boat? Wasn't that awesome?
Yes, awesome and uber-creepy, I thought. The level of detail and accuracy was disturbing, to say the least. You could see the individual pores on Boromir's face, for Heaven's sake! Models like this tend to look "fake" in the eyes — there's just no soul. But because Boromir's eyes were closed, he looked absolutely real.
5. How high is Rauros falls?
Pretty high.
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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Tolkien Forever
Gondor
Apr 8 2008, 5:39pm
Post #4 of 23
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1. Are swords better weapons than scimitars? If so, why? Firstly, I always thought those movie swords that the orcs carried looked ridiculous...... I know Tolkien says at some point orcs carried swords with 'notched blades', but blades with right angles? I don't know..... As for Scimitars, I'm no swordsman, but they sure do look cool & I would guess that these blades would slide off a other blades much more easily.
2. Why doesn't Sauron use his right name, and what name does he use?
Well, the answer is given in one of Tolkien's Letters (I believe), where it is stated that Sauron claimed by the end of the Third Age to be Morgoth himself returned from the Void.
For the same reason Lord Voldemort prefers to be called "He Who Must Not Be Named."
It isn't Bald-Old-Fart who doesn't want his name spoken, it's the crybabies who are afraid of him.......
Remember that know-it-all girlfriend of Ron Weasley's who says "It's fear of a name blah, blah, blah" (sorry, I'm no big Harry Potter fan & can't remember Her name or the exact quote).
What you don't dare name strikes fear into your heart. He doesn't want anyone taking his name in vain because he wants to be God. What the orcs actually call him is "Lugburz" (does anybody know what that means?) or "The Eye".
3. Did this ever puzzle you?
No. Weren't the legions of Crebain from Dunland watching them again in 'The Great River'?
4. Fangirl moment: How many of you saw the LotR movie exhibit with the model of Boromir laid out in the boat? Wasn't that awesome?
5. How high is Rauros falls? I had always envisioned Niagara falls or Angel falls or even Multnomah (Oregon) falls (the only one I've actually seen in person). However it seems more likely that Tolkien had Rhine falls in mind. And just because I like this picture, here is a "paddleable" falls in Australia. Comments or other pictures to share?
I never gave it a thought as I'm not a person who picture's things well in my 'mind's eye'. The movie, which was at least very true to the look of Middle-earth, was very good in this respect. Moreso for me in the more 'unnatarul' things of Middle'earth, such as places (Minas Tirith) & things (orcs). For me, you seen one waterfall, you seen 'em all. The Argonath were better.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 8 2008, 7:57pm
Post #5 of 23
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1. Are swords better weapons than scimitars?
Depends on what you want to do with them.
If so, why?
Scimitars are for slashing, like pirate or cavalry sabers. They're not very good for stabbing.
Swords are good for stabbing, or for slicing unarmored peasants in two. But mainly they concentrate force in the edge so they can break the bones of an armored opponent.
But mainly "scimitar" just sounds exotic, a weapon out of the Orient. Like the weapons the bad guys used in the tales of Ricahrd Burton, H. Rider Haggard, and Sax Rohmer.
Gimli guesses that the S stands for Sauron, but Aragorn and Legolas disagree, saying that Sauron does not use his right name.
They also say "Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken", but later on the Mouth of Sauron calls himself "the Mouth of Sauron" and says '"But this time thou hast stuck out thy nose too far, Master Gandalf; and thou shalt see what comes to him who sets his foolish webs before the seat of Sauron the Great".
Of course none of this has any bearing on which way Frodo went.
2. Why doesn't Sauron use his right name,...
He's a bad guy. Bad guys always use aliases. Jack the Ripper, Scarface, Blackbeard, Oil Can Harry, etc.
... and what name does he use?
Alan Smithee. How else can you explain the horror that is "Bloodsucking Pharaohs in Pittsburg" (1991)?
The three remaining members of the Company conclude that the Orcs came from Saruman, though they are puzzled at how Saruman learned about their expedition.
Shouldn't they be puzzling about where Frodo went?
3. Did this ever puzzle you?
Gollum is following the Fellowship, Sauron's spies are following Gollum, so what's one more group more or less? It's getting kind of like downtown Pasadena California on New Year's Day.
After bearing Boromir to the shore, Legolas and Gimli went to get the boats[ They return, reporting that one boat was missing.
Then they chase after Frodo, right?
Then, laying Boromir out in one boat with his possessions around him and the weapons of his enemies beneath his feet, they tow him out on the water with the other boat and release him, watching until the boat went over the falls of Rauros.
Don't forget the poetry reading. Now do they chase after Frodo?
4. Fangirl moment: How many of you saw the LotR movie exhibit with the model of Boromir laid out in the boat? Wasn't that awesome?
It's only a model.
5. How high is Rauros falls?
187 feet and 3 1/4 inches, give or take a few dozen feet either way.
I had always envisioned Niagara falls or Angel falls or even Multnomah (Oregon) falls (the only one I've actually seen in person). However it seems more likely that Tolkien had Rhine falls in mind. And just because I like this picture, here is a "paddleable" falls in Australia. Comments or other pictures to share?
Wichita Falls? (Boromir goes *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump*!)
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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sador
Half-elven
Apr 8 2008, 10:03pm
Post #6 of 23
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1. Are swords better weapons than scimitars? If so, why?
Compare swords to axes. Axes have a centre of weight far from the wielder, which gives them far greater striking power, but makes them nearly impossible to control properly. And a well-prepared adversary can forsee the blow and avoid it better than a sword. On the other hand, any brute wielding an axe is terrifying (the trolls in 'The Black Gate Opens' had hammers), but using a sword properly requires skill. A race like dwarves - strong, shorter than most of there enemies (therfore needing to strike upwards, or to cause limb damage), heavily armoured and used to fighting in groups - would prefer axes even with swords available.
Now consider scimitars. They resemble axes - are used for slashing rather than stabbing, and less manoueverable - but their centre of weight is nearer the hilt, increasing the control (but not enough to enable stabbing), but reducing the striking power. One might see scimitars as a Golden Mean, but I don't think so. As far as I understand, a schythe-like blade is more reliable, and can withstand schock better.
Assuming the swords of the Uruk-hai are proper swords, they imply Saruman has got superior forging techniques, enabling him to mass-manufacture reliable swords. And that the Uruk-hai are highly trained, or numerous enough to be expendable. Either way, a terrifying thought.
2. Why doesn't Sauron use his right name, and what name does he use?
As Darkstone mentioned (and I did on a previous thread), the Mouth of Sauron does use his name. As does the messenger at Dain's gate, as reported by Gloin to the Council of Elrond.
Aragorn might be just wrong, but I would rather take the other explanation - that high-ranking diplomats are allowed to do what the regular troopers are not. They just call him 'the Eye', or 'Him'.
3. Did this ever puzzle you?
No. Didn't puzzle about it for myself on the first few readings; and then - Dreamdeer mentioned the Palantir, TolkienForever mentioned the birds, Darkstone mentioned Gollum. And Saruman clearly guessed that if they passed the Mountains, Gandalf would go to Lothlorien, since Galadriel always took his part. After that - well, Saruman would guess Minas Tirith, wouldn't he? And the Orcs of Mordor haven't crossed the river yet - so here is his opportunity to intercept the Fellowship, and carry the prize to Isengard! But, as Gandalf will say in four chapter's time, "he does not know of the quarrel between his servants and the Orcs of Mordor; nor does he know of the Winged Messenger" - he tried to betray his new master, and thinks he can do so with impunity.
4. Fangirl moment: How many of you saw the LotR movie exhibit with the model of Boromir laid out in the boat? Wasn't that awesome?
Never saw it; but I'm no Fangirl.
5. How high is Rauros falls? I had always envisioned Niagara falls or Angel falls or even Multnomah (Oregon) falls (the only one I've actually seen in person). However it seems more likely that Tolkien had Rhine falls in mind. And just because I like this picture, here is a "paddleable" falls in Australia. Comments or other pictures to share?
Loved your links! And so did my kids.
"I am sorry. I have paid" - Boromir
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Kimi
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Apr 9 2008, 12:46am
Post #7 of 23
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Is the name in Black Speech for Barad-dűr, and means the same as that, i.e. "Dark Tower".
My writing (including The Passing of Mistress Rose)
Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?
- A Room With a View
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Tolkien Forever
Gondor
Apr 9 2008, 1:36am
Post #8 of 23
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but later on the Mouth of Sauron calls himself "the Mouth of Sauron" and says '"But this time thou hast stuck out thy nose too far, Master Gandalf; and thou shalt see what comes to him who sets his foolish webs before the seat of Sauron the Great".
You know, that never dawned on me & is very interesting in light of Tolkien's statement that Sauron claimed to be Morgoth returned.
But to whom did Sauron claim that to & how openly?
I guess I'll have to go did up the quote. 
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Apr 9 2008, 2:45am
Post #9 of 23
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So an orc referring to orders from Sauron as from "Lugburz" is sort of like an Amerian calling orders from Pres. Bush as from "The White House"? Got it!
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea
Apr 9 2008, 3:14am
Post #10 of 23
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Thanks for confirming it, Kimi. So I guess the only other name for Sauron is "The Eye".
Where's Frodo?
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Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea
Apr 9 2008, 3:17am
Post #11 of 23
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I guess Aragorn was wrong again. "Everything I do is wrong" indeed, including passing along false information about Sauron! Sorry, Aragorn lovers.
Thanks for the Wichita Falls picture too, Darkstone.
Where's Frodo?
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Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea
Apr 9 2008, 3:39am
Post #12 of 23
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I felt like I was at a wake. It wasn't disturbing or creepy to me, though. It just felt real. Like a real loss of a real great flawed but repentant warrior. Which I guess is kind of creepy and disturbing, but it still doesn't feel that way to me.
Where's Frodo?
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Kimi
Forum Admin
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Apr 9 2008, 4:06am
Post #13 of 23
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We might say "from Wellington" (our capital city) in the same sense.
My writing (including The Passing of Mistress Rose)
Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?
- A Room With a View
(This post was edited by Kimi on Apr 9 2008, 4:07am)
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Kimi
Forum Admin
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Apr 9 2008, 4:08am
Post #14 of 23
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I've been lucky enough to see the exhibition three times! I found Boromir extremely moving, and very "real".
My writing (including The Passing of Mistress Rose)
Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?
- A Room With a View
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Beren IV
Gondor
Apr 9 2008, 4:39am
Post #15 of 23
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1. Are swords better weapons than scimitars? If so, why?
Not necessarily, just a different style. Most medieval weapons varied according to their optimal use - that's why there were more than one type of weapon.
2. Why doesn't Sauron use his right name, and what name does he use?
Except he does, because the Mouth of Sauron pronounces it so. But here, I have to agree that it is a fear and awe tactic.
3. Did this ever puzzle you?
No
. Fangirl moment: How many of you saw the LotR movie exhibit with the model of Boromir laid out in the boat? Wasn't that awesome?
Not me, but I'm not a fangirl
5. How high is Rauros falls? I had always envisioned Niagara falls or Angel falls or even Multnomah (Oregon) falls (the only one I've actually seen in person). However it seems more likely that Tolkien had Rhine falls in mind. And just because I like this picture, here is a "paddleable" falls in Australia. Comments or other pictures to share?
I'm sure Tolkien envisioned the falls being immense in scale, although Angel Falls are a bit bigger than I imagine even here - although maybe not. Actually, they probably are that high - I tend to imagine this plateau north of the divide as being a few thousand feet in elevation, while the plain below are closer to one thousand feet elevation. That leaves pretty big falls at Rauros.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 9 2008, 3:37pm
Post #16 of 23
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I guess Aragorn was wrong again. "Everything I do is wrong" indeed, including passing along false information about Sauron! Sorry, Aragorn lovers.
It's possible that Sauron had only recently changed his "no names, please" policy in an attempt to portray a kinder, gentler, more accessible Dark Lord. So maybe it's just that Aragorn is not yet aware of "The New Sauron" PR campaign.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 9 2008, 3:45pm
Post #17 of 23
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Was Aragorn not listening at the Council?
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As sador notes, Sauron's messenger to Dáin also refers to his boss by name. Hmm, was the messenger the Mouth?
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Join us Apr. 7-13 for "The Departure of Boromir".
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ArathornJax
Lorien
Apr 9 2008, 5:36pm
Post #19 of 23
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1. Are swords better weapons than scimitars? If so, why?
As stated, depends on the purpose. A scimitar can be "difficult to wield, requiring great training to become accurate and effective. It is also not designed to stab, merely to chop and slice. On swords it really depends on the era that one feels best fits Tolkien's Middle Earth. If we are using the Anglo-Saxon/Viking/Norman period then the sword was used more as a coup de gras after being stabbed with a spear (see http://www.regia.org/warfare/sword.htm). If we are talking the longsword or broadsword from the high to late Medieval period, then we have a different weapon altogether. The longsword or broadsword was/is commonly held in combat with both hands (with gauntlets that allowing holding of the sharp blade), though they could be used single handed. These swords are used for striking, cutting and thrusting. Specificall, these weapon are offensive in nature and their design and physical shape reflect that. Every part of these swords were used for an offensive purpose including the pommel and the crossguard during combat. This clip from YouTube shows some of the techniques (I have a better one showing one individual fighting based on Medieval texts. It is one individual because if you do the full action the action ends in death or injury like it should). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy9OQoqW_MA&feature=related
This site is a nice site and you can see more of the moves there in the pictures: http://www.thehaca.com/Director.htm
Also from this site are two nice articles, this one that may answer the question on the thrust versus the crush: http://www.thearma.org/essays/thrusting_vs_cutting.html
Finally on longswords: http://www.thehaca.com/medsword2.htm
2. Why doesn't Sauron use his right name, and what name does he use?
This has been discussed and I agree that high ranking people may use it, while lower level people may not. I'm sure if Sauron had won only the very elite of his order would have been allowed to use it if at all.
3. Did this ever puzzle you?
Nope.
4. Fangirl moment: How many of you saw the LotR movie exhibit with the model of Boromir laid out in the boat? Wasn't that awesome?
Did not see it, would have loved to.
5. How high is Rauros falls? I had always envisioned Niagara falls or Angel falls or even Multnomah (Oregon) falls (the only one I've actually seen in person). However it seems more likely that Tolkien had Rhine falls in mind. And just because I like this picture, here is a "paddleable" falls in Australia. Comments or other pictures to share?
Well, Karen W. Fonstad in The Atlas of Middle Earth makes the point that the "cliffs rose to unguessed heights on either side." She also shares that "So sheer was the drop that portaging was possible only by descending the ancient North Stair." Also, if we use the length of Sam's rope of thirty ells and Frodo and Sam's descendant from the Emyn Muil as a gauge for the . An ell is considered usually to be 45 inches long so if you multiply 45 by 30 (number of ells used to get down) you get 1350 inches. Then divided 1350 by 12 (to determine the number of feet) we get 112.5 feet. So I would imagine the falls to be around 100 feet more or less.
I imagine it to look similar to North Clear Creek Falls in Colorado. Here are some images (and this fall is about 100 feet in height and would fit the height that I described). The sheer walls would have to have a staircase in order to bring down the boats.
Here are some images:
http://www.jeffblaylock.com/window/2004/05/north_clear_cre/index.php
http://coloradoscenery.com/North%20Clear%20Creek%20Falls.html
And two images:
" . . . (we are ) too engrossed in thinking of everything as a preparation or training or making one fit -- for what? At any minute it is what we are and are doing, not what we plan to be and do that counts."
J.R.R. Tolkien in his 6 October 1940 letter to his son Michael Tolkien.
(This post was edited by ArathornJax on Apr 9 2008, 5:43pm)
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Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea
Apr 10 2008, 4:09am
Post #20 of 23
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Thanks very much for the photos and the info.
*Makes mental note of ell=45 inches*
Where's Frodo?
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 9:09am
Post #21 of 23
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The Uruk-hai did capture Gollum!
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According to some of Tolkien’s notes published in 2005, Gollum was then interrogated by Uglúk, but escaped. Squire has argued that this strains credulity.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 9:10am
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Frodo guesses that the cliff which he and Sam descend is 18 fathoms, or 108 feet, also in line with your calculations, but the cliff is many miles to the east from the falls, and had descended “slowly but steadily … sinking towards the level of the lowlands”. Frodo is willing to attempt a 100-foot descent without rope; I would guess that the cliff nearer the falls is at least twice as high, possibly much more.
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