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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Aug 25 2015, 5:25pm
Post #1 of 18
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? on Gandalf & the Nine Riders
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Probably a redundant question, but I’m having a set-to with a friend on whether Gandalf fought all Nine Riders on Weathertop.
I’m taking the position that Gandalf’s statement at the Council of Elrond is fact, where he says “ . . . it would have been folly to try with all the Nine at my heels.”
The other position is that Gandalf was being braggadocios or that his account is unclear. (Seems clear to me.)
Just wondering if anyone knows of any other textual evidence that he indeed fought all Nine?
Thx-
Boromir looked in surprise at Bilbo, but the laughter died on his lips when he saw that all the others regarded the old hobbit with grave respect. Only Glóin smiled, but his smile came from old memories.
-JRR Tolkien
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NottaSackville
Valinor
Aug 25 2015, 7:50pm
Post #2 of 18
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It's been a long time since I've read them, but my recollection is that somewhere in this long series there's an effort to track where the various riders were at what time. My VERY vague recollection is that he did not fight all 9 on Weathertop, but that all 9 were in "the area".
Everything I've said in this note has about a 51% probability of being true, but maybe it will point you to somewhere to look, or prompt someone to correct me swiftly and viciously. :)
Notta
 Happiness: money matters, but less than we think and not in the way that we think. Family is important and so are friends, while envy is toxic -- and so is excessive thinking. Beaches are optional. Trust is not. Neither is gratitude. - The Geography of Bliss by Eric Weiner as summarized by Lily Fairbairn. And a bit of the Hobbit reading thrown in never hurts. - NottaSackville
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squire
Half-elven
Aug 25 2015, 8:45pm
Post #3 of 18
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All nine Riders were at Weathertop against Gandalf, surely
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Here is a complete quote of the relevant parts of Gandalf's account in the book:
'The Captain then sent some eastward straight across country, and he himself with the rest rode along the Road in great wrath.
‘I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree and they were there before me. ... I was hard put to it indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old.
‘At sunrise I escaped and fled towards the north. I could not hope to do more. It was impossible to find you, Frodo, in the wilderness, and it would have been folly to try with all the Nine at my heels' - LotR II.2, Gandalf speaking at the Council of Elrond, [bold] by squireThe opening remark states that all the riders, going east from the Shire either cross-country or on the Road, had converged at Weathertop before Gandalf got there. From the context, "all the Nine at my heels" clearly implies that he was then attacked by all nine at Weathertop before being pursued by them into the north lands.
I have to say I can't see what's unclear or exaggerated about Gandalf's account. It also makes sense in the larger story, as none of the Nazgul were heard from or seen by the hobbits and Strider between Bree and Weathertop, despite some having been in or near Bree when the party left the village; thus all nine must have gone somewhere else for quite a number of days.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Aug 25 2015, 9:47pm
Post #4 of 18
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But I don’t think you will be corrected neither swiftly nor viciously; maybe slowly and kindly?
Well, I don’t have HoME, but perhaps someone with knowledge of these books will weigh-in.
If there is a way to track where (and when) each and every Rider was it would have to correlate with the author published works.
Thanks for your ‘note’ Notta, but your probable 51% is (to me) only 49% possible. 
Reminds me of ‘the most interesting man in the world’?
When he has a fifty-fifty chance the odds are eighty-twenty in his favor. 
Boromir looked in surprise at Bilbo, but the laughter died on his lips when he saw that all the others regarded the old hobbit with grave respect. Only Glóin smiled, but his smile came from old memories.
-JRR Tolkien
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Aug 25 2015, 10:35pm
Post #5 of 18
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The quote seems quite clear and uncontestable.
I’ve always pictured it something like this:
“. . . all the Nine at my heels” means that about dawn of Oct. 4th ALL Nine pursued him north for a short period of time; but soon 5 returned back toward Weathertop and sometime later the remaining 4 gave up the chase and headed for the Ford.
Here he’s giving a double account of “all Nine” - then the 5, then the 4 = 9.
Some may take issue with “they were there before me”. Why didn’t Gandalf say “all Nine were there before me”? This assumes that everytime Gandalf uses the word “Riders” he needed to include a number. (Aw!)
But, to play devil’s advocate, Gandalf doesn’t state (in so many exact words) that he fought all Nine but only that all Nine pursued him. But this just doesn’t make sense to me. If there were less than Nine at dusk of Oct. 3rd Gandalf would have said so, wondering where-o-where are the other(s), IMO.
Anyhoo, if anyone can come up with any OTHER textual quotes or hints beside the quotes given that Gandalf fought all Nine I’d really like to hear. (Or less than Nine arguments will be considered but severely chastised.)
Boromir looked in surprise at Bilbo, but the laughter died on his lips when he saw that all the others regarded the old hobbit with grave respect. Only Glóin smiled, but his smile came from old memories.
-JRR Tolkien
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danmax67
The Shire
Aug 28 2015, 2:38pm
Post #6 of 18
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I always took that to mean that he fought 5 at Weathertop but had to get out of Dodge when the other 4 arrived.
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squire
Half-elven
Aug 28 2015, 6:03pm
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One could certainly read it that way
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But really, "they were there before me" is all we have (my bold). It follows a passage where Gandalf accounts for why only five of the Nazgul passed through Bree as we learned in the story: the other four were, he says, also directed to head East, but went across country rather than by the road. So who greeted him at Weathertop that evening...
"They" - the four who crossed country and got to Weathertop first?
"They" - the five who rode to Weathertop by the Road?
"They" - all nine, who had made it to their meeting place and linked up "before me"?
And why did Gandalf flee at the end of the night? Was it because the other four - or other five - suddenly showed up, as you guess? Or was it because the wraiths are less effective in the day time, and Gandalf took advantage of the sunlight and a temporary withdrawal of the Riders to try to get away and perhaps lead them away from the Ringbearer?
As so often with Tolkien, it's hard to be definitive. You may well be right in your guess, although I don't agree with you!
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Aug 28 2015, 11:57pm
Post #8 of 18
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If he did fight all Nine at Weathertop, then in the same account he does say that he was very hard put to it indeed. I don't think he came close to defeating the Nine if they were all their and the Grey Wizard knew this which was why he scarpered the next morning. After all if he could have defeated the Nine then, even temporarily, why not do so and make the road clear for the Ringbearer?
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Aug 29 2015, 4:08am
Post #10 of 18
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If he did fight all Nine at Weathertop, then in the same account he does say that he was very hard put to it indeed. I don't think he came close to defeating the Nine if they were all their and the Grey Wizard knew this which was why he scarpered the next morning. After all if he could have defeated the Nine then, even temporarily, why not do so and make the road clear for the Ringbearer? First he DID fight ALL Nine. (You put an “if” in your comment.) I believe if you carefully reread squire’s and my posts on this thread you may be convinced.
Ok, redundancy, but here’s the pertinent account from The Council of Elrond:
'The Captain then sent some eastward straight across country, and he himself with the rest rode along the Road in great wrath.
‘I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree and they were there before me. . . . I was hard put to it indeed: . . At sunrise I escaped and fled towards the north. I could not hope to do more. It was impossible to find you, Frodo, in the wilderness, and it would have been folly to try with all the Nine at my heels . . . Four Ridrs did indeed follow me . . . after a while … made for the Ford . . . for these were only five, not nine, when your camp was attacked. I can see possible contention (points for Hamfast) with “Four Riders did indeed follow me…”, but from the entire quote it seems most probable that Gandalf feared all Nine were following; which for a short time may be so.
Another thought: If Aragorn (with some small help) could hold off Five (incl. the Witch King), it seems supremely reasonable that Gandalf could hold off all Nine.
Secondly, yes! He was “hard put to it”. Clearly he couldn’t defeat all Nine. Nor could all Nine defeat him. We must call the fight a draw.
Thus at dawn he “fled” or “scarpered” as you put it and Gandalf drew off 4 (inadvertently?), so only 5 remained to attack Aragorn’s camp.
I must take the side of Nine.
Boromir looked in surprise at Bilbo, but the laughter died on his lips when he saw that all the others regarded the old hobbit with grave respect. Only Glóin smiled, but his smile came from old memories.
-JRR Tolkien
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dreamflower
Lorien
Sep 2 2015, 12:49am
Post #11 of 18
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This has always been my idea as well
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I always thought that the Nine chased him, then four split off at Weathertop to cover the road. When he got away from the Five, the rest joined in.
It never occurred to me that it could be interpreted a different way. Huh.
Now I wonder.
Some people call it fanfiction. I call it story-internal literary criticism.
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Ostadan
Rivendell
Sep 2 2015, 2:48am
Post #12 of 18
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According to quotes in Hammond and Scull's 'Lord of the Rings Companion', excerpted from the Marquette MSS ('The Hunt for the Ring'), on 2 October the four Black Riders who were sent ahead (from Andrath) assemble near Weathertop. "[One] remains [while three] go on eastwards on or near Road ... Oct. 3: Gandalf reaches Weathertop but does not overtake [Witch-king and other four Riders]; for they became aware of his approach as he overtakes them on Shadowfax, and withdraw into hiding beside the road. They close in behind. [The Witch-king] is both pleased and puzzled. For a while he had been in great fear, thinking that by some means Gandalf had got possession of the Ring and was now the Bearer; but as Gandalf passes he is aware that Gandalf has not got the Ring. What is he pursuing? He himself must be after the escaping Bearer, and it must therefore somehow have gone on far ahead. But Gandalf is a great power and enemy. He must be dealt with, and yet that needs great force.
"[The five] follow Gandalf hotly to Weathertop. Since Gandalf halts there, [the Witch-King] suspects that it is a trysting place.
"Gandalf is attacked by [the five plus the rider who had stayed near Weathertop] on Weathertop on night 3-4. Frodo and Aragorn see the light of the battle in the sky from their camp."
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Ostadan
Rivendell
Sep 2 2015, 2:57am
Post #13 of 18
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Although not directly relevent to this topic, another passage from The Hunt for the Ring is quite fascinating and not well known (it does not, as far as I know, appear outside Hammond and Scull's Companion). Tolkien was trying (after the fact) to justify how the Witch-King lost track of the Bearer and the Ring after Weathertop (and did not watch the camp).
"...several reasons, the least to be expected being the most important, namely that [the Witch-king], the great captain was actually dismayed. He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive that the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself both by the way, and on his return to his Master (if unsuccessful). ... but above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How had he come by it - save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the B-wight; and he called on _Elbereth_, a name of terror to the Nazgul. He was then in league with the High Elves of the Havens.
"Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and _fear_ both of Aragorn and especially of _Frodo_. But fear of Sauron, and the forces of Sauron's will was the stronger."
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NottaSackville
Valinor
Sep 2 2015, 1:48pm
Post #14 of 18
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The Witch-king afraid of Frodo - now that's a fun twist!
Notta
Happiness: money matters, but less than we think and not in the way that we think. Family is important and so are friends, while envy is toxic -- and so is excessive thinking. Beaches are optional. Trust is not. Neither is gratitude. - The Geography of Bliss by Eric Weiner as summarized by Lily Fairbairn. And a bit of the Hobbit reading thrown in never hurts. - NottaSackville
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Jun 28 2017, 10:00am
Post #15 of 18
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What is the MSS? The only 'Hunt for the Ring' chapter I know of
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directly is in Unfinished Tales, and this is clearly different, but very elucidating. What is the exact title that it is taken from, in totality, if you don't mind my asking. It may be a book I have, but if not, I want to look into it. Thanks.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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squire
Half-elven
Jun 28 2017, 12:02pm
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'LotR: A Readers Companion' by Hammond & Scull has material not otherwise published
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It was published in 2005 by Houghton Mifflin. Tolkien's development of the Witch-King's point of view, based on manuscript text from the 'Hunt for the Ring' story that was not included in Unfinished Tales but is on file at the Marquette library, is on page 180 at the end of the chapter covering 'A Knife in the Dark'.
As usual, when Tolkien tries to give voice or thought to one of the forces of Darkness, he ends up sounding like the eternal Evil Overlord. How, for instance, does the Witch-king know that the Ringbearer is "timid and terrified", when all he knows from his encounter with Frodo is that the hobbit attacked him with a deadly blade? Why has the Witch-king only just now guessed that the hunt for the Ring is a mission "of great peril" to himself, when the One is the only thing that can defeat his Master, and is known to be held or guarded by the Wise?
The "Hunt for the Ring" material is fun to read, of course, but I think it represents the less successful side of Tolkien's compulsion to play the 'vast game' that he worried LotR and Middle-earth had become.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Jun 29 2017, 5:53am
Post #17 of 18
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Published nowhere else?? What the deuce!! lol Confusticate and bebother. Christopher Tolkien is a literary treasure for all the edited, carefully reconstructed and supplemented posthumous releases of his father's work he has done, but all this holding back and doling out is oh so annoying. lol I'm firmly with you that it was all 9 who battle Gandalf. Not just because it makes the scene more epic, but because, he speaks in a way that strongly implies all Nine closed in on him, because, having fled his wrath during the day and thus being aware that he was a great Power, it seems likely that they would have wanted to come against him with full force to capture or negate him as quickly and efficiently as possible... and also, the fact that the fight lasted for many hours, no less than about six, probably 10, and possibly as many as 12, and the effects of Gandalf's magic could be seen from miles away... even if it started as a battle of one against four, five or six, it would have turned into all 9 well before the fight ended, and he definitively says there were 9 there when it ended. For me, this started as an inquiry into how, in a hypothetical, the 9 would fare against the Balrog. I suspect there would have been an uneasy alliance, and I do think Sauron had hope, possibly very reasonable hope, of the Balrog being used in a Lothlorien assault, for a demon of Morgoth, supplied with an army and "support staff" would be both willing and able to lead the Nazgul into territory they would not venture into themselves without Sauron needing to be present, for Balrogs do not fear High-Elves. One of the things I noted was that Gandalf had faced The Nine, but later in the book, contending with the devil-sorcery of the Balrog for control of the Marzabul doors, he states that he had "never felt such a challange." Anyway, I guess that is another thread somewhere. lol. Good hearing from you squire. God Bless, and be well.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Jun 29 2017, 6:02am
Post #18 of 18
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Regarding the Witch-king knowing Frodo was timid and terrified
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That much, at least, I think the Witch-king could have gleaned from whatever psychic perception he possessed, along with basic observation ( doubtless, after centuries of instilling fear, he knew terror when he saw it, and Frodo was terrified ).
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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