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Sindarin Question

Laineth
Lorien

Aug 25 2015, 1:46am

Post #1 of 8 (4642 views)
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Sindarin Question Can't Post

Hi everyone. I've been doing some language research lately, and I'm completely stumped. Hopefully one of you knows the answer. Smile

"Calen" is said to be the word for green (and the plural is celin). However, it only shows up in LotR as "galen" - Parth Galen, Eryn Galen, Eryn Lasgalen, etc.

What changes it from a c to a g?


Elthir
Grey Havens

Aug 25 2015, 12:05pm

Post #2 of 8 (4622 views)
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lenition or softening [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi. Your example is a result of lenition or softening (the verb lenite means "to undergo an increase in sonority or become lenis. Said of consonant sounds, as when (p) changes to (b), (b) to (v), or (v) to (w)." but that's just the dictionary version, and I'll let an actual linguist explain more about it.

Generally speaking, lenition can also be found in Welsh for example, a notable inspiration for Grey-elven! Anyway, I think there is an example (in Unfinished Tales perhaps) Calenhad, which itself (I think) shows not only the word calen in its regular form, but also the mutation from the form sad to -had as the second part of this compound.

Softening (one kind of mutation found in Sindarin at least) occurs in certain circumstances in Grey-elven. It's a rather detailed subject, but as you noted already, it's found in some compounds, although not in every example, even sometimes where it would seemingly be expected by the experts* if I read them correctly. Although that is only touching lightly upon a very detailed subject.

The experts meaning: *not me Wink


(This post was edited by Elthir on Aug 25 2015, 12:19pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Aug 25 2015, 12:24pm

Post #3 of 8 (4604 views)
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PS [In reply to] Can't Post

That should say your examples (plural) are illustrations of lenition. You gave more than one of course.

Smile


(This post was edited by Elthir on Aug 25 2015, 12:33pm)


Laineth
Lorien

Aug 25 2015, 4:32pm

Post #4 of 8 (4591 views)
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Thank you! :) [In reply to] Can't Post

That makes sense!


Elthir
Grey Havens

Aug 26 2015, 1:07pm

Post #5 of 8 (4553 views)
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hopefully... [In reply to] Can't Post

... it will still make sense when and if a trained linguist pops in Smile

Every once in a while I see someone who posts using Sam's Sindarin name, except that they take Berhael from the example in The Return of the King, when Frodo and Sam are praised by the Gondorians. It's attested of course, but even names can undergo mutation in certain circumstances, and Sam's actual Elvish name is Perhael "Halfwise", noting also Peredhil to refer to the Half-elven.

Anyway, I tried to link to a page explaining more about the mutations in Sindarin, but could no longer find the page I was thinking of. I think it was by Thorsten Renk or Roman Rausch?

Or someone Smile


Laineth
Lorien

Aug 27 2015, 1:01am

Post #6 of 8 (4511 views)
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That gives me [In reply to] Can't Post

more than enough to start researching with. Also, languages have never been my strong suit, so the simpler the explanation the better! Wink


Elthir
Grey Havens

Aug 30 2015, 1:19pm

Post #7 of 8 (4419 views)
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green words [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmm, while Calenhad does appear in Unfinished Tales, turns out it also appears in The Lord of the Rings, in the chapter Minas Tirith for example. And we have the name Calenardhon "Green province", in the chapter The Window On the West for instance.

And Unfinished Tales confirms that Calenhad means "Green space", derived from sad "place, spot". I thought so before, but that makes it more sure than my earlier "I think" anyway.

Also Sindarin laeg is another "green word", which has nothing to do with much here except for my title.

Wink


(This post was edited by Elthir on Aug 30 2015, 1:30pm)


swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Sep 12 2015, 3:39pm

Post #8 of 8 (4153 views)
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has anyone mentioned... [In reply to] Can't Post

this website: http://elvish.org/

bigger on the inside...

Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...

Member of Manure Movers Local 101, Raptor Wranglers & Rehab, and Night Fury Trainers Assoc. Owned by several cats and a very small team of maniacal sled dogs... sorry Radagast, those rabbits were delicious...





 
 

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