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Goldeneye
Lorien
Aug 20 2015, 2:22pm
Post #1 of 22
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The use of Black Speech in the Hobbit films
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Are there any comments from PJ & Co on why they decided to have Sauron/Necromancer and all the orcs talking in black speech in the Hobbit films? In LOTR they speak predominantly in the common tongue. As I am continually re-visiting the Hobbit films, I wonder if that's another reason why Azog/Bolg don't fully gel as villains...they never speak English or even have a two-way dialogue with our heroes. I just loved hearing Lurtz screaming "find the halfling!" in LOTR. Nothing really quotable from Azog or Bolg...just snarls.
Same goes for Sauron/Necromancer...his chanting in LOTR was cool but when he actually talks in The Hobbit, he sounds way less scary. More like an old foreign guy with emphysema.
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Aug 20 2015, 2:38pm
Post #2 of 22
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It makes the orcs different from the other species.
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Dcole4
Rohan
Aug 20 2015, 2:47pm
Post #3 of 22
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I think that when they originally set out with the films, the orcs were meant to speak the common tongue. I highly doubt they'd have Conan Stevens buried under make-up under hot lights, try to remember the pronunciation. I think the Black Speech thing came out of the switch to CGI and the desire to "alienate" Azog/Bolg a bit. From a creative stand point and from a technical stand point, I think PJ realized it'd be easier to swallow a CGI orc if he spoke a different language.
I do think it was a mistake for some scenes. I do wish that whenever he is addressing Gandalf or Thorin that Azog would have spoken the common tongue. It's all quite sad, I would have much preferred Conan Stevens' take on the character, there is just something to be said about having a live performer in front of the camera, in the same way that there's just something off about Dain when compared to Balin or Thorin. The higher def cameras were a curse on this production, resulting in a shift away from prosthetics to CGI. While it doesn't hurt my ability to enjoy the movies in most cases, I undeniably would have loved the movies tenfold had they maintained a more practical aesthetic. There's just something too rubbery and artificial about CGI. Particularly in the case of Azog, Bolg and Dain. All remarkable creations, but for me they don't quite make the landing in the way that Gollum did.
But back to your post, I think the Black Speech arose mostly out of a technical necessity to help audiences buy Azog. Especially given the fact they had a small window to animate him in AUJ, its harder for an audiences to scrutinize lip movements too intensely when the character is speaking an alien language.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 20 2015, 2:56pm
Post #4 of 22
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Smaug's lip movements were absolutely convincing, speaking English. I haven't seen a single person complain about them. Has anyone actually said that they used Black Speech because of CGI? I doubt it myself, though I'm happy to be proved wrong. I'd say that they've always tried to bring other languages in because it's part of Tolkien's world. The dwarves speak Kuzdul and the elves Elvish, and they're not CGI.
And how can you prefer Conan Stevens' take on the character when none of us has actually seen it?
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 20 2015, 3:00pm
Post #5 of 22
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Sauron sounding like a "foreign guy".
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Shocking. I'm sure he would have been much better with an American accent.
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Dcole4
Rohan
Aug 20 2015, 3:08pm
Post #6 of 22
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I meant it more as a hunch, I would be very surprised if they had originally scripted Azog to speak Black Speech when their intention was to put an actor in full prosthetics with the mouth piece (remember the prosthetic Azog had very gnarly false teeth).
The other clue is the interrogation scene in DOS that was shot early in the production, that orc speaks English. I think that all the prosthetic orcs were originally meant to do this until they switched it up late in the game.
Regarding Conan Stevens, we saw a few seconds of him in BOTFA, while honestly that is very little to go on, he is a very, very competent actor, and like the orc in the interrogation scene, he's one of the few orcs with presence. While I love Manu Bennett and truly admire the extensive and impossibly difficult work done by WETA, Azog for me and especially Bolg, never quite feel like they're in the scene. They just feel like post production additions for me sadly. Part of that is due to the fact that most of their scenes take place in entirely CGI environments. I think Azog worked best in Weathertop when he was on a real set with real performers. I think perhaps if they had gone the "Planet of the Apes" route, where they shoot as much in camera as possible and add the digital character later, I could have swallowed him more. But too many of Azog and Bolg's scenes are in that virtual camera world PJ and WETA created w/ Avatar and Tintin. It's been discussed and bickered about to death I know, but I do think the biggest mistake of these films, even moreso than some of the script issues people have, is that they abandoned a lot of the make-up effects due to the higher frame rate and 5K camera. Just looking at the Star Wars photos and trailers, it's incredible how effective real performers in make-up, and animatronics, can be. I still shudder whenever Dain comes into the movie. I love Billy, and think WETA did a remarkable job, but it's still substandard in comparison to having a real actor present on set.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 20 2015, 3:32pm
Post #7 of 22
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Prosthetics would imply one language or another? I can't see the logic there.
More generally, you clearly have a strong preference for rubber masks over CGI masks. Myself, I don't think it makes much difference - either way one knows it isn't a real Orc!
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Goldeneye
Lorien
Aug 20 2015, 3:38pm
Post #8 of 22
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Ha, well by foreign I meant someone speaking a different language! But egads, I'd rather hear black speech than American English in a ME movie. And I'm American!
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NecromancerRising
Gondor
Aug 20 2015, 3:41pm
Post #9 of 22
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Black Speech is one of the highlights of the whole Middle Earth series. It made the race of Orcs unique, enriching their vocals and giving them a harshness and brutality which was much desired for my part.
Lurtz screaming "Find the Halfling: in an impeccable American accent was lame and the same can be applied to Sauron in LOTR. The moment i heard Sauron talking for the first time in LOTR instantly transformed him from an eerie and uncanny villain personality(the elements the Necromancer/Sauron of Hobbit had) to an ordinary and generic one,imo of course.
Tastes differ and that's the magic of it all
"You cannot find peace by avoiding life"
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Bumblingidiot
Rohan
Aug 20 2015, 4:30pm
Post #10 of 22
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I prefer the black speech, but
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I find the subtitled translations on screen very clunky - not well written. And, I don't like subtitles in a non subtitled film; I'd much rather just hear the common tongue and not have the other speech translated for me. Where necessary, an explanation can be provided by one of the other characters, and most of the time, you can guess or work out what the orcs are saying to each other anyway. That may be an unusual preference but, for me, it enables me to feel that i'm peering into the world and seeing it as it happened. Of course, the Common Tongue itself is supposed to be a translation from an older language - none of the characters were supposed to have been speaking English, but that's a necessary concession for the sake of the storytelling. Tolkien has his orcs talking in the common speech, because they were either speaking to non-orcs, as in the goblin tunnels, or were in a group with mixed languages, as in The Two Towers bunch in Rohan.
I personally don't like to see writing on-screen unless I'm watching a non-English language film (I hate dubbing), and that includes things like "Sixty years earlier..." or "Bree, on the outskirts of The Shire". That kind of thing makes me switch modes as a viewer, and takes me out of the scene - and it's fun to have to work these things out for oneself anyway.
I don't agree re. Sauron's voice in LOTR - did he actually speak in the films? I took it as more like him putting a voice in people's heads, as with Frodo in the inn, or when whispering about putting on the ring etc. I thought it sounded good - and it was much altered from the actor's normal voice - I'd never have guessed it was the same actor from The Cook, The Thief etc.
And while on the general subject "she-elf" - clunk clunk; straight out of a dungeons and dragons style comic. An orc would just say "elf" - don't think they'd be interested in the biology of other races, just as I would say I was bitten by a dog; whether it was a dog or bitch is of no relevance.
"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."
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NecromancerRising
Gondor
Aug 20 2015, 4:44pm
Post #11 of 22
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you can take it as him putting a voice in people's heads but we could all clearly hear his voice in an American accent when he said to Saruman "Build me an army worthy of Mordor" or to Frodo "You cannot hide", "I see you" etc etc.
I always watch the films in subtitles of my native language. While i definitely can understand it without them,i always miss some words, so,in order to grasp everything that is spoken throughout the film,every dialogue and every word i always turn on the subtitles. I am used to it
"You cannot find peace by avoiding life"
(This post was edited by NecromancerRising on Aug 20 2015, 4:45pm)
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Aug 20 2015, 4:58pm
Post #12 of 22
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'It makes the orcs different from the other species.'
And I love Azog's deep, earthshaking voice.
I also thought I read somewhere that there were different 'breeds' of Orc, and perhaps some would speak in the human tongue while others wouldn't. Logically, I would have thought few of them could speak in the human tongue, and that if they did they wouldn't do so as well as some of them did in LotR. (And I'm not sure why Lurtz didn't seem to speak in English, while the man-flesh Orcs did, assuming that the Uruk-Hai are Orcses.)
It makes the orcs different from the other species.
(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Aug 20 2015, 4:59pm)
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Aug 20 2015, 5:14pm
Post #13 of 22
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Alan Howard wasn't American.
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Bofur01
Lorien
Aug 20 2015, 5:14pm
Post #14 of 22
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It's actually 95% Orkish, as opposed to Black Speech.
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Agog only speaks black speech when addressing Sauron. See David Salo's blog for more details.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Aug 20 2015, 5:24pm
Post #15 of 22
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And while on the general subject "she-elf" - clunk clunk; straight out of a dungeons and dragons style comic.
As is "king's son", which likewise indicates Legolas' gender.
An orc would just say "elf"...
Then you object to the line "Woodland Elves!" as well?
...don't think they'd be interested in the biology of other races...
Unless they were worried that their superior would (quite rightly) punish them severely for leavng any detail, no matter how small, out of their report. After all, it's not a scout's job to determine the importance of their observations, it's their commander's.
... just as I would say I was bitten by a dog; whether it was a dog or bitch is of no relevance.
Actually it's of great relevance if you want the dog found and identified so you you can find out if you have to be treated for rabies or not.
One might picture an orc reporting to Azog:
"No need to worry about those elves who tracked Bolg to Lake-town. One of our patrols just now found and killed some elves so it's all okay now"
"So they found and killed two Woodland Elves, one male, one female?"
"Er, dunno. Elves are elves, right?"
(Then again you might have a point. With orcs as his mainstays Sauron did blow the entire rule-the-world mission quest thing, so maybe they *should* be played that stupid.)
******************************************
That hobbit has a pleasant face,
His private life is a disgrace.
I really could not tell to you,
The awful things that hobbits do.
Things that your paper never prints
They only speak of them in hints.
They have such lost, degraded souls,
No wonder they inhabit holes;
When such depravity is found,
It only can live underground.
I really dare not name to you,
The awful things that hobbits do.
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Aug 20 2015, 5:34pm)
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Starling
Half-elven
Aug 20 2015, 6:19pm
Post #16 of 22
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And also, Lawrence Makoare is, of course, not American either.
I have no idea how anyone would detect even the slightest 'American accent' with those two actors.
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Bumblingidiot
Rohan
Aug 20 2015, 6:34pm
Post #17 of 22
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clunk clunk clunk.
"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."
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Bofur01
Lorien
Aug 20 2015, 6:43pm
Post #18 of 22
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Oh, my friends and I often quote Azog...
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"Run them down!" Even if it's not what the Orkish literally means, is such an awesome line :p
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Aug 20 2015, 9:27pm
Post #19 of 22
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Did Conan Steven not speak black speech to Gandalf or was that ADR or someone else?
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Cirashala
Valinor
Aug 21 2015, 5:05am
Post #20 of 22
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I liked it, for the most part. But....
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Here's my conundrum with it:
It felt forced in when they spoke to those outside their own race (aka orcs or Sauron, who would presumably know it).
The problem lies in the fact that it's generally assumed that the dwarves/hobbit/elves/Gandalf, etc would actually UNDERSTAND the black speech. Well, Gandalf might, and Elrond or other elves who spend a great deal of time being studious....
But if Elrond states in FOTR that "Never before have the words of that tongue been spoken in Imladris" that implies that black speech itself was NOT allowed/permitted to be spoken in Rivendell (Imladris, for those who may be unaware, is the elvish word for Rivendell).
Now, even if the orcs spoke, as someone above me in flat mode mentions, orkish rather than true Black Speech, that implies even MORE confusion as to how anyone else would understand them.
Gandalf verifies that he "knew all the spells of elves and men and orcs" at the western gate of Moria, so he likely does. But a) he's a freaking wizard, and b) he's been in ME what? About 2,500 years or so? (300 lives of men). I imagine that gives one ample time to learn pretty much every language that is spoken, if only out of necessity to understand the enemy or foil plots (something directly in the wizard's charge/mission).
But how on earth would Thorin, or Tauriel (only 600 years old and isolated), understand it? How would any of the orkish or Black Speech be understood by any of the others? Thranduil may have picked up on it as he was in Mordor at the Battle of the Dagorlad fighting Sauron the first time for 7 years. That also explains how he's familiar with "My master serves the One" line when it confused Legolas. He knows who the One is- obviously Sauron. PTSD moment for him I think (off topic, but still a cool observation).
So if one is going to bother threatening someone with gruesome death and taunts, it doesn't MAKE ANY SENSE for them to do so in a language they likely know the other obviously doesn't understand.
Azog may as well have invited Thorin for ice cream and a roller coaster ride for all he knew  And since he's a gruff speaker anyway, how could Thorin have known?
So yeah- I thought it was a great way to introduce the varied languages and cultures that are at the heart and root of Tolkien's stories. But any language usage that's a ME language must be done in a way that makes sense otherwise it's jarring.
Makes sense:
1. Thorin rallying with a Khuzdul battle cry at Bilbo's- makes sense. About the only Khuzdul widely known were dwarf battle cries, and opponents feared hearing it. Kili speaking Amralime to Tauriel in their second conversation does not because of how especially secretive Khuzdul is and how sacred it is to the dwarves (but that also delves into my irritation with the unbelievability of their so called "romance", but I digress). That would have been drilled into his head from day one. Few things were as sacred to the dwarves as their language, to the point that they didn't write Khuzdul names on tombs- and even changed their own names around those who weren't dwarves, and it was taught as a language of lore rather than cradle speech to preserve it from generational mutation.
2. Thranduil/Tauriel/Legolas speaking elvish- I think this one is a duh. Even them switching back and forth between Westron and Elvish makes sense because I've heard that bi/multilingual speakers often do that. However, that does beg the question of how does Tauriel know Westron unless it was part of her military education with Thranduil's isolationist policy? But she does admit to "sneaking out under the stars", as it were...so perhaps she picked up on it, or learned it from Legolas, who, being the king's son, would undoubtedly have been educated in it for diplomacy reasons.
3. Black Speech with Azog/orcs and Azog/Sauron- makes sense. They're all his minions and on the same side, and Sauron's mentor, Melkor, created orcs (theoretically from mutated elves as he didn't have the power to grant life, merely mutate what the others created). Black Speech when threatening a foe- doesn't make sense because they wouldn't understand it.
Introducing "fantasy world languages" into both book and film (and fan fiction, as that's where I'm at as a writer right now), requires believability in circumstances to make sense. And in these films, black speech/orkish being spoken to those outside of the "evil allies" is forced, unnecessary, and doesn't make sense as the characters wouldn't be able to understand each other. To make it natural, for example, Azog should direct those under his command in orkish, and address Thorin in Westron. Just like Elrond gave directions to his servants to provide food in Elvish, but addressed Thorin and the company in Westron (though admittedly I think he did it on purpose to get back at Thorin for his rude comment  ).
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 21 2015, 11:20am
Post #21 of 22
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I think that rather assumes the goal is communication and not expression.
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I don't see any issue with our goodies understanding Orcish - it's always a very difficult argument to say what someone "couldn't" have known. They have all been around for chunky lifetimes and there is no reason to suppose any of them didn't engage in learning.
To Azog, he isn't seeking answers from those he is talking to. He is expressing his own views. It happens all the time in films where characters (often goodies) are busy shouting things in English to characters (often baddies) who are depicted as non (or at least not obviously) English speakers.
In fairness I suspect it happens in real life too - espciacially in battle. If an English soldier going over the top in the trenches were moved to shout something polemic, I doubt they would be concerned to translate it into German to ensure their enemy understood.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 21 2015, 11:50am
Post #22 of 22
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You lay great emphasis - too great, perhaps - on 'spoken' language. How would characters understand Black Speech/orcish if it wasn't allowed to be spoken in Rivendell or wherever. Perhaps they learned from a written record of the language. Surely in a world with such deep conflicts it would be important to understand at least some of what the enemy is saying and planning. And the elves particularly, language being their gift and their time being limitless, must have kept written records from which they and other who needed to could learn.
In the Bree prologue we see one fragment of written Black Speech. Gandalf understands it. The fact that he translates for Thorin suggests that Thorin doesn't. That brings us round to your conundrum with orcs using their own language to threaten other races. My first question on that would be does actually Azog speak any languages others than those of the dark side? (that's a genuine question - I can't remember any instance in which he speaks without subtitles, though of course I remember everything he says because I've read the subtitles!)
If no, then his use of his own language to taunt and threaten others is easy. If it's the only language he has, that's what he'll use. Seems quite natural to me. If you go to a country where they speak a different language people will automatically use it when they speak to you. It's only when they realise you don't understand that they'll try to find a common language - if they can't, they'll carry on more slowly and with signs, hand signals, facial expressions.. anything that might help to communicate.
But what if Azog does have the Common Tongue? That still doesn't feel forced to me. It means he is choosing to threaten the dwarves in a language they can't understand, and in those circumstances, where the danger is obvious and the threat obvious, the alien language ratchets up the tension. It says "you can't communicate with me, you can't reason with me." This is Azog: Thorin doesn't need to understand the words to read the intent behind them.
I think one of the funniest parodies of the 'out of the frying pan' scene was the strip Peckish Owl did which substituted Azog's subtitles for the song Tolkien's goblins sing in the same scene - I've just been looking for the link but can't find it. It was brilliant - but it also made the point for me that Azog wouldn't have been half so menacing if he'd spoke in a language we understood!
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