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In LOTR - Is Varda - Elbereth Gilthoniel the only deity called upon?

Eruonen
Half-elven


Aug 18 2015, 4:35am

Post #1 of 17 (2641 views)
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In LOTR - Is Varda - Elbereth Gilthoniel the only deity called upon? Can't Post

There are few overt references to any of the characters calling upon the Valar / Maiar for assistance. I may be forgetting some, but the only time they are references it is Varda / Elbereth Gilthoniel who is beseeched in times of danger. Not so much a prayer as a calling.
Of note, Gandalf / Olorin is an Istari Maiar sent by Manwe and Varda.

Eru / Illuvater is never called upon, nor the other Valar. In the Silmarillion, we have more direct encounters.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Aug 18 2015, 4:36am)


sador
Half-elven


Aug 18 2015, 6:19am

Post #2 of 17 (2615 views)
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In the book? [In reply to] Can't Post

No, but there are one and a half references to the Valar in general.

In Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit, when the mumak charges, Damrod (one of Faramir's soldiers) calls: "May the Valar turn it aside!"

And after crowning Aragorn, Gandalf says: "'Now come the days of the King, and may they be blessed while the thrones of the Valar endure!"


Evernight
Rivendell


Aug 18 2015, 5:06pm

Post #3 of 17 (2569 views)
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References to the Valar... [In reply to] Can't Post

Also, Theoden riding like Orome at the Pelennor fields, and a mention of the Elder King (Manwe) in Bilbo's song about Earendil at Rivendell.

In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit...


sador
Half-elven


Aug 18 2015, 5:51pm

Post #4 of 17 (2562 views)
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Well, [In reply to] Can't Post

The Elder King is not identified as Manwe anywhere before the index.

But both case are mentioins, no invocations, or prayers to them - like the Barrow-wight and Tom Bombadil menton the Dark Lord, and likely enough they mean Melkor; but I wouldn't count those references either.


Eruonen
Half-elven


Aug 19 2015, 5:03pm

Post #5 of 17 (2468 views)
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I wonder how the Valar communicated the approval for the [In reply to] Can't Post

ring bearers trip to Valinor. Who was the messenger? Physical? Mental? It implies they were aware of all that was happening in ME.

Re-read some of The Grey Havens chapter...
Many elves went with Galadriel, Gandalf etc...not the lonesome
group per the movie.

Sam is given an opening with:

"No, Sam. Not yet anyway......" Which gives rise to future speculation.

They also sang:

A! Elbereth Gilthoniel!......


Eldy
Tol Eressea


Aug 20 2015, 5:56am

Post #6 of 17 (2428 views)
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There are a couple of other obscure instances [In reply to] Can't Post

I wish I could say these were pulled from memory, but actually I was recently poking around on a number of old lore sites, including our own squire's, and came across this piece by NZ Strider:

http://users.bestweb.net/...pen%20Discussion.htm

References relevant to your question, would, I think include:
- Damrod's "may the Valar turn him aside!" in TTT during the mumak battle
- (arguably) the invocation of Earendil, though he's more of an angelic figure (though the Valar are arguably not technically deities either)
- (probably not) Sam's references to "Lor' bless"

But yeah, you raise a good point. Most of the instances I initially thought of come from other parts of the legendarium, such as the oaths of Cirion and Eorl which had jumped immediately to mind but are found only in Unfinished Tales.

This was deliberate on Tolkien's part as he stated he tried to keep overtly religious elements to a minimum. The pre-Downfall Numenorean rituals, while still very sparse, were one of the few exceptions. But by the time of LOTR that was ancient history.



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...



(This post was edited by Eldorion on Aug 20 2015, 5:58am)


Cillendor
Lorien


Aug 20 2015, 5:25pm

Post #7 of 17 (2396 views)
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Given that human beings are naturally religious, [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
This was deliberate on Tolkien's part as he stated he tried to keep overtly religious elements to a minimum. The pre-Downfall Numenorean rituals, while still very sparse, were one of the few exceptions. But by the time of LOTR that was ancient history.


this seems strange to me. I know that he didn't want to write an allegory, but I would think he'd at least make them more pagan. Apart from atheism, which is a pretty modern philosophy, humans have always held to some form of religion or another. Heck, even atheism is functionally a religion. It just seems strange to me that he would write about a world in a medieval setting in which they all had a pretty involved history with the gods, but they almost never mention or invoke them now. At the very least, I would anticipate some form of animism, what with various Ainur being associated with certain physical elements.


squire
Half-elven


Aug 20 2015, 6:08pm

Post #8 of 17 (2392 views)
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You're right [In reply to] Can't Post

It does seem like a mis-step in his creation of an imaginary world that is meant to be our world, and Men to be ourselves.

I believe the way he thought about it was this: re-reading it, he recognized that the book's world-view and cultural morality is saturated with a Catholic sensibility, not surprisingly given his own strong Catholic faith. I think he also sensed the weaknesses and possible conflicts of bringing the quasi-pagan theology of the Elves in the Silmarillion, which he'd already invented and developed (i.e., the Valar, Elvenhome, etc.) directly into this new, less pagan version of Middle-earth. So as he put it, he simply cut out all explicit references to the older world's gods and religion, and let the implicit Catholic religiosity of the War of the Ring speak for itself to those with ears to listen. For the rest, it's still an excellent story.

An even harder question is the sexual one, of course!



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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Eldy
Tol Eressea


Aug 20 2015, 8:48pm

Post #9 of 17 (2372 views)
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A few thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that it's a kinda strange choice. I think squire is right that Tolkien was reluctant to make the characters pagan, particularly since even The Silmarillion material had become somewhat less pagan by the time he was writing LOTR. The cultures of Middle-earth do have spiritual beliefs though, and there are real world examples (especially in East Asia) where religion plays a much different and relatively minor role than it tends to in the west. And on the indivdual level of course plenty of people today end throughout history have been non religious.



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...



(This post was edited by Eldorion on Aug 20 2015, 8:50pm)


Eruonen
Half-elven


Aug 20 2015, 8:53pm

Post #10 of 17 (2367 views)
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I think it was fine for the Valar and Eru to just be in the background. I think the [In reply to] Can't Post

ME struggle was consciously played out knowing they had withdrawn from direct action other than sending the Istari. The beseeching of Elbereth seems only to have had power in her name upon the various servants of Sauron. I think humankind felt rather alone....with just the knowledge that the Valar and Eru existed but no prayers as with Numenor which built the high alter upon Meneltarma. After the deluge, they probably felt rather as outcasts.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Aug 20 2015, 8:56pm)


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Aug 21 2015, 12:50pm

Post #11 of 17 (2306 views)
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Correction... [In reply to] Can't Post

...SOME people are naturally religious. Almost no human who is not 'taught' to be religious becomes one by himself.

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


Cillendor
Lorien


Aug 28 2015, 5:26pm

Post #12 of 17 (2129 views)
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Very good point, I see what you mean. [In reply to] Can't Post

But what do you mean about the "sexual problem"? Are you talking about the marriage of Elves and Men, or Thingol and Melian?


swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Sep 1 2015, 12:58am

Post #13 of 17 (2059 views)
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I think less of a misstep [In reply to] Can't Post

than a conscious avoidance of Religion while steeping the entire tale in spiritual and mythic elements that went far beyond any superficial practice of organized religion.

bigger on the inside...

Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...

Member of Manure Movers Local 101, Raptor Wranglers & Rehab, and Night Fury Trainers Assoc. Owned by several cats and a very small team of maniacal sled dogs... sorry Radagast, those rabbits were delicious...






squire
Half-elven


Sep 1 2015, 1:54am

Post #14 of 17 (2059 views)
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Given that human beings are naturally very sexual... [In reply to] Can't Post

...Tolkien's choice to eliminate almost every indication that his characters have sexual awareness is striking. It can be explained, of course, just as the religious question can be.

But such an explanation is both hard and long.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 1 2015, 12:44pm

Post #15 of 17 (2043 views)
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Naturally religious? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Given that human beings are naturally religious...




I think rather that I would say that humans naturally look for answers for the mysteries of life. For lack of formal science, people look for those answers in religion and mysticism. The most naturalistic religious beliefs, such as Shintoism, Druidic traditions and Native American beliefs share many similarities: Nature spirits, animal totems, etc.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


CamdenMcAndrews
Rivendell


Sep 11 2015, 5:38am

Post #16 of 17 (1924 views)
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Those things just weren't part of the story [In reply to] Can't Post

I suspect that Tolkien's reason for not going on about religion or sex in his stories is that those there were not important to the stories he was writing. He also never mentioned how to make a pie crust or where folks in Middle Earth got their lamp oil.


Folks in Middle Earth seemed to all accept religion as just part of their history and magic as part of their science. The few times that Elbereth come up in a story, it's someone reciting a poem or singing a song. It seemed to cause some consternation to a few evilnasty things like the stone watchers outside Cirith Ungol, but mostly it seemed to have no more significance than we say "God be with you" every time we say "goodbye."


Tolkien did not populate his worlds with temples and priests, but I don't see that as being inconsistent with his Roman Catholic religion. He intended the events in his stories to be a new mythology, taking place at some time in history long before recorded human history and perhaps even on a mythological planet; no need for the trappings of Catholicism back then.


(This post was edited by CamdenMcAndrews on Sep 11 2015, 5:39am)


Eruonen
Half-elven


Sep 11 2015, 2:13pm

Post #17 of 17 (1910 views)
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I have to disagree somewhat... [In reply to] Can't Post

The Valar are very key to his stories as they pre-existed both The Hobbit and The Lord of The Rings and were always in the background. By the time of the LOTR he knew he had to relate the story back to the Silmarillion. So, the question I posed was about the lack of any direct reference to them. It seems, that after the great downfall of Numenor all religion as we commonly think of it essentially disappeared. The inhabitants of ME were basically on their own to various uncertain futures. The elves always knew they would dwell amongst the Valar. The Valar and indeed Eru had withdrawn from the world and did not seek or need devotion. I would not expect any RCC trappings as we all know this is set in the distant past before Christianity or Judaism ever came into existence. The references to Eru worship on Meneltarma are more suggestive of Greek Zues worship etc.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 11 2015, 2:18pm)

 
 

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