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Arranged Marriages
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Susan
Bree


Aug 14 2015, 1:51pm

Post #1 of 27 (7173 views)
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Arranged Marriages Can't Post

Although the vast majority of Middle-Earth's wedded couples seem to have married for love (Beren/Luthien, Aragorn/Arwen, Tuor/Idril, Faramir/Eowyn), has anything been said as to whether arranged marriages were also common? Given the medieval type setting, and the practicality of arranged marriages for nobles, I would think that most (high-ranking, at least) Men and Dwarves chose spouses for their children.

One specific example I can think of is Finduilas and Denethor; although nothing is specified, I find it hard to believe that she loved and chose him. The union would also have been a politically sound choice for Finduilas's parents--marrying their daughter off to the Steward of Gondor.

Any thoughts or other resources would be welcome!


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Aug 14 2015, 7:29pm

Post #2 of 27 (7083 views)
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Consider Éowyn. [In reply to] Can't Post

In the European Middle Ages and beyond, a woman in Éowyn's position (daughter of a deceased King) would have been placed in a strategic marriage as soon as she was old enough (or maybe even earlier). Thus, she would not have been in the spinsterish situation in which she saw Aragorn as her only hope for escape from an intolerable position. I once raised this in one of the Two Towers chapter discussions, and the response was, quite resoundingly, that this didn't happen in Middle Earth. There appear to have been a few unhappy marriages among ruling Gondorians, but no instances of a strategic marriage in which the participants were either strangers or reluctant.

That said, both Éowyn's marriage to Faramir and Éomer's marriage to the daughter of Prince Imrahil are perfect from a strategic alliance point of view; we are just persuaded that they were both love matches.








Susan
Bree


Aug 14 2015, 8:16pm

Post #3 of 27 (7070 views)
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Thank you for your response-- [In reply to] Can't Post

and I agree with your reasoning regarding Eowyn. In some ways, Tolkien's world was actually a pretty idealistic one when it came to women (the fathers are all protective of their daughters, and I can't recall any instances of domestic abuse, though living with Ar-Pharazon or even Feanor can't have been any fun), and maybe he really liked the idea of no one being forced to wed.


Belegorn
Registered User


Aug 14 2015, 9:00pm

Post #4 of 27 (7058 views)
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Forced Marriage [In reply to] Can't Post

When it came to Ar-Zimraphel, Ar-Pharazôn "took her to wife against her will". [Akallabêth]


Belegorn
Registered User


Aug 14 2015, 9:34pm

Post #5 of 27 (7046 views)
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Finduilas [In reply to] Can't Post

I do not think there is anything from Finduilas' perspective concerning her feelings toward her husband. Denethor's love for her was comparable to his love for Boromir, though not necessarily the same love. She seemed to hate living in Minas Tirith, "The shadow in the east filled her with terror, and she turned her eyes ever to the south to the sea that she missed." [Appendix A: The Stewards] I do not believe Denethor was a horrible man. I do believe he was a man hardened by the times, and at the same time "a masterful lord... foreseeing that the assault of Mordor would come in his time." [The Stewards] He was not crazy, nor turned to evil, and was deeply concerned about Gondor. He might have been hard to live with, but then if Arwen and Aragorn were married when he first met her she would probably have found it hard to live with him with all the cares he too had. I would end with one more quote concerning Denethor and ask why would she not choose such a man when he is compared to Aragorn himself who Faramir said was the greatest man in Middle-earth [The Return of the King; The Steward and the King]?


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Denethor ll was a proud man, tall, valiant, and more kingly than any man that had appeared in Gondor for many lives of men ...he was as like to Thorongil as to one of nearest kin [The Stewards]


All his attributes, physical and mental, may have drawn no interest from Finduilas, but they could have. I'm sure there were many women who would not mind having him as their husband even though he married when he was 46. You may be right about the marriage being arranged. I say this because of Finduilas' reaction to Minas Tirith. She was probably never there until she did marry Denethor. However, it's not impossible that he met her at Dol Amroth and they hit it off and had no need to have others hook them up.


hanne
Lorien

Aug 15 2015, 12:44pm

Post #6 of 27 (6960 views)
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some more [In reply to] Can't Post

The internet thinks the loveless marriage of Queen Beruthiel (of conquered Umbar) and King Tarannon of Gondor (conqueror of Umbar) was arranged to ally the two realms but would be best if you could check that with someone who has Tolkien's original writings.

There's also the story of Freca of Rohan demanding that Helm Hammerhand marry Helm's daughter to Freca's son. Helm refused so this marriage never got arranged after all. And they started a war over it. But whether you read this as arranged marriage being part of life and this particular instance offensive, or the whole idea of arranged marriage offending enough to start a war, I do not know.

There are also marriages where parental permission seems a key element, even if the parents did not actually do the choosing. Thingol setting conditions before Beren could marry Luthien is an example. Another one is the initial reluctance of Gilraen's parents to let her marry Arathorn (though she might have been underage, so maybe that isn't the best example).

My impression is that Tolkien didn't intend arranged marriages to be part of Middle Earth cultures.


Susan
Bree


Aug 15 2015, 3:22pm

Post #7 of 27 (6939 views)
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Beruthiel, Freca and Finduilas [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for telling me about Queen Beruthiel, she's definitely an interesting character, but so far there doesn't seem to be much about the circumstances of her marriage. In an interview Tolkien apparently compared her to a Norse giant named Skadi, who married a god as compensation for the gods killing her father, but I'm not sure as to the relevancy of that in Queen Beruthiel's story or to the whole discussion of arranged marriages.

In Freca's case, it looks like Helm refused because Freca had Dunlendish heritage, and was defiant and disrespectful to the ruling King. So Helm probably found that particular offer offensive, but perhaps that was compounded by the fact that arranged marriages were offensive to begin with. This is all a matter of personal interpretation, though, and I think I am injecting real world expectations into a fictional universe; you are probably right in saying that Tolkien didn't intend arranged marriages to be part of Middle Earth.

As for Finduilas, when Denethor is compared to Aragorn he does seem like a more desirable match. But somehow, I still get the feeling that it was a one-sided relationship; he was described as loving her deeply, but nothing is said about her feelings except that she was unhappy and homesick. Denethor always struck me as a little cold and haughty, too, not the chivalrous storybook hero of a "gentle" young lady (Arwen is also much older, more experienced, and seemingly more self-assured, enough at least to hold her own against Aragorn). One could argue that his affection caused him to be warmer and kinder around her, but her depression in Minas Tirith indicates that he wasn't really the most loving spouse, and maybe had trouble demonstrating his feelings. But perhaps Finduilas didn't mind that, and it isn't fair after all for me to project my own preferences on another character. And, as you mentioned, it is probable that Denethor traveled to Dol Amroth, met Finduilas, asked for her hand, and she thought--well, I could do much worse. (Thank you, by the way, for presenting so much evidence, and I'm sorry I have nothing to offer in return except for speculation).


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Aug 16 2015, 5:26pm

Post #8 of 27 (6853 views)
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There was one case at least [In reply to] Can't Post

When one of the sisters of the later Kings of Gondor married one of the later Lords of Atherdain in the north, Aragorn's line, which had the effect of strengthening Aragorn's claim in later years, one of the purposes of royal marriages. It isn't said if the Gondor queen was unwilling or had to be persuaded but it sounds a bit like an arranged marriage to me.


Belegorn
Registered User


Aug 16 2015, 8:08pm

Post #9 of 27 (6836 views)
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Who knows? [In reply to] Can't Post

Arvedui married Fíriel who was the daughter of the then King Ondoher. Her father, and both of her brothers were killed in the war against the Wainriders, but her cousin Eärnil II saved the day. The thing is, in Gondor and in Arnor, the crown is reckoned through the male line only. So even the son of Arvedui and Fíriel could not make a claim on the throne. There could be no claim made through his wife for the Southern crown even though Arvedui argued this. He tried to do this, but her cousin was chosen instead since he was descended in the male line. The only real claim the line in the North had, which was legitimate, was being descended from Isildur the elder brother. Aragorn claims to be of the House of Elendil. His claim to the throne is not based on being a descendant in the female line, but rather in the male line straight from Elendil, through Isildur.

The two kingdoms did reach out to each other at this time when the prince and princess married so I can't say the marriage was not arranged. As I said, she had two brothers who would inherit the throne, and when they both died it did not pass to her but to her cousin. I believe Arvedui was trying to find a way to fulfill the prophecy by using Fíriel in his argument to Gondor's council but he also claimed the throne as a descendant of Isildur. They countered of course with the practice in both kingdoms of succession only through the male, and that the crown in the South had been relinquished by Isildur to his nephew and only passed to descendants of Anárion. So if the marriage happened to be arranged in the North to gain the Southern crown it would be foolish and it certainly was not arranged in the South for anything in the North since "to most men in Gondor, the realm in Arthedain seemed a small thing, for all the lineage of its lords." [Appendix A: Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion]


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Aug 18 2015, 11:42pm

Post #10 of 27 (6696 views)
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Thank you for your reply [In reply to] Can't Post

And welcome to the Reading Room. And to providing the names of the people which I couldn't look up as I don't possess a copy of Rotk and the appendixes at the moment. However, at the time the line of Gondor had been pretty diluted in terms of male to male desecent which was broken many times since Isildur. In the South, anyway. I suppose it depends upon how much they made of the Silaic law which says that the descendents of the eldest female relative to the crown takes precedence over the younger male which has or has not been in force in the Middle-Ages depending on the various circumstances. Anyway, it was an idea to strenghen the Monarchy of Anor in general and thinking about it, it was unlikely that the two just happened to fall in love with each other!


Belegorn
Registered User


Aug 19 2015, 3:18pm

Post #11 of 27 (6630 views)
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An unlikely love that even Elrond fell to on first seeing Celebrían. [In reply to] Can't Post

I do not know how unlikely it could have been that they fell in love with one another. The realms were in communication with one another at this time when they realized a power had been moving their enemies against them. I think it's possible the princess in Gondor was aware of these things, and even sat in on meetings being up to speed in matters of gov't. It is possible that it was arranged considering how fast things went in 1940


Quote
It was in the reign of Araphant in the North and of Ondoher son of Calimehter in the South that the two kingdoms again took counsel together after long silence and estrangement. [Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion]


Perhaps when they did take counsel together once again they decided as a sign of good will or to further strengthen ties to have the children of the rulers to marry. The North may have seen in this a means to stealing the Southern crown again. Clearly the arrangement did not work as the North could not hold out. The South did its best when it could to muster a small force to help, but it was not in time.

The line in Gondor did not proceed directly from father to eldest son as you mentioned, but then again, that was the case since Meneldur who was the nephew of Isildur [2nd King]. So it was "diluted in terms of male descent" beginning that point. Next up was Falastur's [12th King] nephew Eärnil. Eärnil was the son of his brother Tarciryan. Next up was Narmacil's [17th King] younger brother Calmacil. Then was Telemnar's [26th King] nephew Tarondor who was the son of his brother Minastan. Finally the last of the Kings in the South came via Eärnil ll a cousin to Ondoher from Narmacil ll's [29th King] younger brother Arciryas. It happened 4 times in Gondor where the eldest son did not get the crown because there was none except with Meneldur who they claimed Isildur relinquished the crown to.

I think it would perhaps have been much more probable that they would have considered making Fíriel the ruler of Gondor had there been no more male descendants of the Royal House.


Darkstone
Immortal


Aug 19 2015, 8:44pm

Post #12 of 27 (6600 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien as an Anglo-Saxon scholar would be well aware of the concept of a “peaceweaver”, a noble lady given in marriage to a rival tribe in order to forge or strengthen bonds of peace. Indeed, most of the marriages of Rohan nobility seem to be (Coincidentally? Deliberately?) in service of peaceweaving, whether between Eastfold and Westfold, or Rohan and Gondor. There’s no doubt the marriage of Faramir and Eowyn is especially advantageous politically, so much so that one would almost suspect that someone deliberately confined these two hurting individuals within the Houses of Healing and let nature take its course. (From Letter #244: Criticism of the speed of the relationship or 'love' of Faramir and Eowyn. In my experience feelings and decisions ripen very quickly (as measured by mere 'clock-time', which is actually not justly applicable) in periods of great stress, and especially under the expectation of imminent death.)

Interestingly, in Letter #43 Tolkien does make a slight nod to the superiority of arranged marriages:
You really do very little choosing: life and circumstance do most of it (though if there is a God these must be His instruments, or His appearances). It is notorious that in fact happy marriages are more common where the 'choosing' by the young persons is even more limited, by parental or family authority, as long as there is a social ethic of plain unromantic responsibility and conjugal fidelity.

Of course we have the opposite, where Beren and Aragorn are stricken by love at first sight. (Or in Thingol’s case, love at first hearing.) But these are mirrors of Tolkien’s own experience with his own Luthien, and as he puts in Letter #43: ”My own history is so exceptional, so wrong and imprudent in nearly every point that it makes it difficult to counsel prudence. Yet hard cases make bad law; and exceptional cases are not always good guides for others."

As for Finduilas and Denethor, one can see both possibilities, either a sad marriage arranged against their will “by parental or family authority”, or a passionate love-at-first-sight marriage between two opposites “so wrong and impudent in nearly every point” that eventually cooled off into mutual sorrow.

******************************************
That hobbit has a pleasant face,
His private life is a disgrace.
I really could not tell to you,
The awful things that hobbits do.
Things that your paper never prints
They only speak of them in hints.
They have such lost, degraded souls,
No wonder they inhabit holes;
When such depravity is found,
It only can live underground.
I really dare not name to you,
The awful things that hobbits do.


Felagund
Rohan


Aug 23 2015, 10:30am

Post #13 of 27 (6384 views)
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the Númenórean angle [In reply to] Can't Post

Some observations, on the back of Númenórean subject matter raised a few times in this thread.

A consequence of the change to the Númenórean law of succession by Tar-Aldarion (reigned: II. 883-1075) would have been, in my view, more arranged marriages. The law stipulated that the Heir to the Númenórean throne must marry within the Line of Elros - in practice, I guess we're talking about cousins, of various degrees of removal. This doesn't preclude people falling in love and being happy, but Heirs would have been under irresistible pressure to acquiesce to match-making by senior relatives - drawing from a very specific list of eligible candidates.

On the Semi-Salic inheritance model that seems to be the situation with the Númenórean Rule of Succession until the reign of Tar-Aldarion, Tolkien wrote that this was only an inherited 'custom', and not actually Númenórean in origin at all. Perhaps this is something the Edain picked up from their former Noldorin allies during the long wars against Angband?

And finally, a comment on the later Salic law approach to succession in Gondor (and presumably Arnor). I'd argue that the key plank of the House of Elendil's claim to being the natural leader of the post-Akallabêth Númenórean realms in exile is their membership of the Line of Elros. Remember, there were other noble Númenórean houses who established themselves in Middle-earth, notably that of Imrazôr (ancestor of the Princes of Dol Amroth), and Húrin of Emyn Arnen (ancestor of the Stewards of Gondor). However, somewhat ironically given the later legal obsession with primogeniture, Elendil was a descendant of the Lords of Andúnië, whose link to Elros was by the female (the so-called 'distaff') line - via Silmarien, daughter of Tar-Valandil, 4th King of Númenor. The Kingdom of Gondor's approach to succession thus mirrored the pre-Númenórean custom, whilst the 'parent' kingdom, allowed for female direct succession. In a sense, Gondor regressed, and did what even everyone's fave Númenórean villain, Ar-Pharazôn didn't do - they overturned the female right of succession.

[Source: "Aldarion & Erendis", Unfinished Tales]

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


squire
Half-elven


Aug 23 2015, 2:18pm

Post #14 of 27 (6373 views)
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Did the Noldor have a tradition of rules of succession and inheritance? [In reply to] Can't Post

I see what you mean about the Edain getting some of their more advanced social structures from the Elves. But that opens up a can of worms that I think Tolkien tries to avoid. Elves are immortal, and presumably do not think about possessions, wealth, inheritance, and class structures the way that Men, with a limited time of life, do. Wouldn't there be endless instances of misunderstanding and misapplication, if the early Men tried to model their more advanced societies against those of their Elvish mentors?



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Felagund
Rohan


Aug 23 2015, 3:30pm

Post #15 of 27 (6366 views)
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Edain / Noldor [In reply to] Can't Post

It was a throw-away line by me! I suppose my reference point would be the title of High King of the Noldor - itself, as you say, a can of worms (not least on Maedhros's effective 'abdication', the lineage of Ereinion / Gil-galad, and the eternal position of Finarfin back in Tirion).

From the series of combat deaths the Noldorin High Kings suffer, and where the title then goes, not to mention the moaning of the more loathsome Fëanorians, you could hypothesize that it was a male-preference primogeniture system.

Looking at how the First House of the Edain organised themselves, a quick look at the family tree suggests that they were using a similar inheritance system, at least as far as the Lordship of Ladros was concerned. The Second House of the Edain provides an interesting contrast, at least in terms of the chieftainship of Haleth, daughter of Haldad.

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Susan
Bree


Aug 23 2015, 3:47pm

Post #16 of 27 (6360 views)
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Tar-Ancalimë [In reply to] Can't Post

Going back to Numenor, there is at least one example of marriage for politics and not love; apparently Tar-Ancalimë wedded to produce an heir to keep the throne from her cousin. After the birth of their first son, she and her husband lived apart.


Belegorn
Registered User


Aug 23 2015, 8:33pm

Post #17 of 27 (6328 views)
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Ar-Pharazôn married for the sceptre [In reply to] Can't Post

Ar-Pharazôn too married for political purposes. I would not consider it arranged since it was said to go against norms as he forced his first cousin to marry him so that he could claim the throne.


Susan
Bree


Aug 24 2015, 8:50pm

Post #18 of 27 (6230 views)
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So to sum up... [In reply to] Can't Post

Political and forced (unconventional) marriages - yes
True arranged marriages - unlikely


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Aug 24 2015, 11:12pm

Post #19 of 27 (6216 views)
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In the case of Elrond [In reply to] Can't Post

I suppose that there weren't that many Elven aristocracy about at the time, so it was more likely that they knew each other. Though, thinking about it, maybe in that case there was some parental or outside influence in the marriage. Maybe with Galadriel, which puts a whole new gloss on matters. Maybe Celebrian was deeply in love with a lowly Elf in Lothlorien, but was forced to choose Elrond by political matters. But I doubt it, I suspect that we would have been told. ln the other case, it does smack a bit too much like a marriage of political convience to me, but that's just my opinion!


Eldy
Tol Eressea


Aug 25 2015, 2:37am

Post #20 of 27 (6203 views)
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That is a fascinating point with regards to Eowyn [In reply to] Can't Post

I had never really thought about what you mention, that if we were applying medieval norms to Middle-earth we'd expect her to be married off long before we met her. I wonder how convincingly the argument could be made that Theoden tried to stop this for personal reasons and that Eowyn's situation might not be indicative of the norm in Middle-earth. I think there's reasonably good evidence, most of it mentioned in this thread, that arranged/political marriages were not unheard of (and I've personally always assumed that Eomer and Imrahil's daughter was primarily political).



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...



Eldy
Tol Eressea


Aug 25 2015, 2:42am

Post #21 of 27 (6200 views)
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Eldar and inheritance/marriage [In reply to] Can't Post

Good point regarding Eldar and inheritance. The mad scramble for kingship after the death of Finwe and again after Feanor suggests to me a lack of norms (and precedent, with the exception of Olwe replacing Elwe after he missed the boat to Valinor). Granted, mad scrambles for power have happened throughout history in cultures that did have succession rules in place), but I don't think Eldarin society had anticipated the need for succession before the flight of the Noldor.

That said, I think the marriage of Finwe and Indis of the Vanyar (daughter of Ingwe) could be a potentially political one. Or at least, it's an example of the class of marriages Elizabeth mentions that are perfect for political alliances but may be presented as more romantic (The Shibboleth of Feanor does suggest a personal attraction on Finwe's part and clearly states one on Indis'.)



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...



(This post was edited by Eldorion on Aug 25 2015, 2:49am)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Aug 25 2015, 12:42pm

Post #22 of 27 (6170 views)
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I think so - and... stable marriages [In reply to] Can't Post

The pattern seems to be that marriages are very stable: adultery, illegitimacy or plotting getting rid of an inconvenient partner just aren't plot drivers for Tolkien's works (as far as I can remember). Marriages aren't always deliriously happy, but the partners do seem to find ways of getting along in a dignified manner.

As far as I can remember, too, widows and widowers often don't remarry. Compare the situation in many real-life cultures where that would often happen, especially in the nobility where politics and inheritance of the estate or kingdom were so often concerns.

Tolkien even marries off nearly all of his Valar and tells us all abotu who is married to who. This seems to be important to him, though it is of no plot significance at all (as far a I've been able to see).

~~~~~~

Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064


Elanor of Rohan
Lorien


Aug 27 2015, 8:03pm

Post #23 of 27 (6108 views)
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always wondered [In reply to] Can't Post

at the character of Lotiriel: we know practically nothing about her. We can imply that she accompanied her father to Gondor, at least as soon as the was was over (or even earlier).
She was probably very beautiful (like Finduilas, maybe), and an eventual interest of the new King Eomer towards her was appreciated and encouraged by all the parts involved.
Eomer was young, good-looking, and surely kind and noble: there are all the elements to be accepted by a young and beautiful princess like Lotiriel.Wink


squire
Half-elven


Aug 27 2015, 8:56pm

Post #24 of 27 (6101 views)
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'She was probably very beautiful' [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, can we name any princesses in Tolkien's books that aren't 'very beautiful'? That's like looking for Hero who isn't tall.

Actually I had to look up who you were talking about! But I think you've probably nailed her backstory as well as possible.



squire online:
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Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Susan
Bree


Aug 27 2015, 9:18pm

Post #25 of 27 (6094 views)
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Lothiriel and Finduilas [In reply to] Can't Post

Considering their Dunedain heritage, would you say that both Lothiriel and Finduilas married at young ages (22/23 and 26 years old, respectively)? Comparatively, Gilraen (though she did have more Dunedain blood), at 22 years old was considered too young by her father to marry.

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