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MirielCelebel
Rivendell
Aug 13 2015, 2:16pm
Post #1 of 32
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Could Thranduil have dwelled in Doriath?
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I have been working on some fascinating research on Thranduil and his father Oropher but have hit a stumbling block and I'd love some nerdy insight here. I am looking through the Atlas of Middle-earth by Karen Wynn Fonstad and her work is unbelievably good, almost gospel in her attention to detail. She makes a bold claim that Thranduil may have lived in Doriath because his caves are very similar in construction to Menegroth. They don't match in grandeur because his caves were not built by dwarves and he did not have the resources to build such a fortress. Are these similarities evident because the Silvan Elves are inherently good at living underground so their dwellings may look the same? Or is there a possibility that Thranduil and his father lived with Thingol and his people before they crossed into the east? I am heading off to work shortly and would just like some places to start my research if you know of any. I have several chapters in the Unfinished Tales marked off, but is there anything in the Silmarillion about the emigration of the Elves I may be missing? Any info on this topic is greatly appreciated. Thanks!
"The Road goes ever on..."
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Belegorn
Registered User
Aug 13 2015, 3:01pm
Post #2 of 32
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According to one account he and his father could have.
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In the History of Galadriel and Celeborn in Appendix B there is a passage about the building of Thranduil's realm. Here are two quotes from it that touch on what you're pondering. The first mentions that Oropher and Thranduil along with other Sindar "came from Doriath after its ruin". They apparently wanted to go back to a more rustic life that the Silvan Elves generally had and did not want to be associated with the other Eldar. The last quote concerns Thranduil's inspiration "the example of King Thingol long before, in Doriath;". What he lacked in money and skill was the difference, and the people who lived there of course. At least in this section of the mythology, Oropher and Thranduil did indeed come from Doriath and after its destruction moved east like other Sindar. Thranduil had his realm built as a shadow of Menegroth.
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MirielCelebel
Rivendell
Aug 13 2015, 5:53pm
Post #3 of 32
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for your input! I will check those passages out. Appreciate it!
"The Road goes ever on..."
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Brethil
Half-elven
Aug 13 2015, 7:48pm
Post #4 of 32
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Welcome to TORn and the Reading Room, Belegorn! //
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Aug 14 2015, 12:09pm
Post #5 of 32
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possibly... so far... or something
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Quote
"(...) Oropher was of Sindarin origin, and no doubt, Thranduil his son was following the example of King Thingol long before, in Doriath; though his halls were not to be compared with Menegroth. He had not the arts nor the wealth nor the aid of the Dwarves; and compared with the Elves of Doriath his Silvan folk were rude and rustic. Oropher had come among them with only a handful of Sindar, and they were soon merged with the Silvan Elves, adopting their language and taking names of Silvan form and style. This they did deliberately; for they (...) came from Doriath after its ruin and had no desire to leave Middle-earth, nor to be..." Unfinished Tales, The History of Galadriel And Celeborn, Appendix B
So according to this passage, Oropher and "a handful of Sindar" had come among the Silvan Elves, and they came from Doriath after its ruin. Is Thranduil meant to be included here?
Possibly, in my opinion.
And I think Thranduil following the example of Thingol may merely mean that he, like Thingol, knew he must at some point delve underground for protection against the growing Shadow. Thranduil would certainly know about Menegroth in my opinion, but was he old enough to have seen it?
Again possibly 
And unless there is some other reference that I can't recall at the moment 
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MirielCelebel
Rivendell
Aug 14 2015, 12:59pm
Post #6 of 32
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That all makes sense. I personally would like to think Thranduil is old enough to have seen it. I hope that it would be part of his life experiences that shaped who he became as a king later on. I guess it's a lot of speculation work.
"The Road goes ever on..."
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Evernight
Rivendell
Aug 14 2015, 2:16pm
Post #7 of 32
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They don't match in grandeur because his caves were not built by dwarves
Gimli to Legolas, while describing Aglarond:
"Do you think those halls are fair, where your King dwells under the hill in Mirkwood, and Dwarves helped in their making long ago?"
The Two Towers, The Road to Isengard.
In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit...
(This post was edited by Evernight on Aug 14 2015, 2:16pm)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Aug 14 2015, 2:39pm
Post #8 of 32
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... is always best in my opinion. I don't have my copy of The Hobbit handy (if there is anything there as well, that is), but good catch.
This is close to where Gimli calls Galadriel a "Queen" too 
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Evernight
Rivendell
Aug 14 2015, 2:46pm
Post #9 of 32
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Thanks!
After his stay in Lothlórien, I wouldn't be surprised if Gimli decided to call Galadriel a "Goddess" too, lol. 
In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit...
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PhantomS
Rohan
Aug 22 2015, 5:47pm
Post #10 of 32
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Both Menegroth and Thranduil's halls are partly carved by Dwarves, but the Elves had a hand in shaping them so they still resembled Elven halls rather than Dwarven halls like in Khazad-dum. Finrod, Galadriel's brother was particularly talented at this so the Dwarves named him Finrod Felagund, or 'Cave Hewer'.
Menegroth differs from say, Narogthond in that it wasn't orignially a Dwarven settlement, and neither was Thranduil's realm. However Thrandiul's halls echo that of Doriath, despite the forest outside being hostile and unwelcoming.
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squire
Half-elven
Aug 23 2015, 12:50am
Post #11 of 32
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The Mirkwood Elves in The Hobbit spent most of their time in the forest
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In the area of Mirkwood where the wood-elves lived, we are supposed to understand that forest isn't evil, merely mysterious and (perhaps) hostile to non-Elven intruders. But it is evidently not hostile or unwelcoming to the Elves, or why would they spend so much time feasting and hunting in it? This is an easy point to miss, given that the plot focuses on the goings-on within the Elven-king's cavern halls:
This great cave, from which countless smaller ones opened out on every side, wound far underground and had many passages and wide halls; but it was lighter and more wholesome than any goblin-dwelling, and neither so deep nor so dangerous. In fact the subjects of the king mostly lived and hunted in the open woods, and had houses or huts on the ground and in the branches. The beeches were their favourite trees. The king’s cave was his palace, and the strong place of his treasure, and the fortress of his people against their enemies. - Hobbit VIII, bold by squire
I am also interested in your remark that Khazad-dum 'resembled' a Dwarven hall rather than an Elven one. Given that there is very little description of the details of decor and layout of the Dwarves' underground palaces, or of the Elves', and that the one poem written about Khazad-dum literally lifts the language from a poem about Doriath (in HoME III), I wonder if we can really say whether the two could have been differentiated?
squire online:
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Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
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Laineth
Lorien
Aug 25 2015, 1:33am
Post #12 of 32
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he did:
Remnants of the Telerian Elves (of Doriath in ancient Beleriand) establish realms in the woodlands far eastward, but most of these peoples are Avari or East-elves. The chief of these were Thranduil who ruled in the north of Greenwood the Great beyond Anduin, but Lorien was fairer and had the greater power; - The Peoples of Middle-earth, The Tales of Years of the Second Age, 750, T4
This they did deliberately; for they (and other similar adventurers forgotten in the legends or only briefly named) came from Doriath after its ruin and had no desire to leave Middle-earth, nor to be merged with the other Sindar of Beleriand, dominated by the Noldorin Exiles for whom the folk of Doriath had no great love. - Unfinished Tales, Part 2: The Second Age, 4: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Appendix B
Remnants means “a small surviving group of people.” A small group of survivors from Doriath establish realms. The second one is from a text about Thranduil and his father, and states it again.
(This post was edited by Laineth on Aug 25 2015, 1:40am)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Aug 25 2015, 12:47pm
Post #13 of 32
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draft text versus the author published revision
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Your first citation comes from a draft version for The Tales of Years (Appendix B) however, which was essentially revised when it was employed for the "introduction" section of these years.
And Tolkien revised this to say (paraphrased here for brevity): High Elves remained in Lindon, and before the building of the Dark Tower many of the Sindar passed Eastward and established realms in the forest far away: "Thranduil, king in the north of Greenwood, was one of these." That's a bit different than the draft version, although it remains possible that Thranduil lived in Menegroth.
And your second text from Unfinished Tales (which continues on after the part I cited earlier) refers to they in my opinion, not necessarily to Thranduil specifically, given the part of this quote noted in the thread already. As I wrote above:
"So according to this passage, Oropher and "a handful of Sindar" had come among the Silvan Elves, and "they" came from Doriath after its ruin. Is Thranduil meant to be included here?
Possibly, in my opinion.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Aug 25 2015, 1:01pm)
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MirielCelebel
Rivendell
Aug 25 2015, 1:16pm
Post #14 of 32
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thank you Laineth for your comment regarding the Peoples of Middle-earth. That's the only source I haven't used yet and I need to get my hands on it. Thanks for the clarification on revisions as well, Elthir. It does make a difference and I think we are to understand Thranduil lived to see much struggle and pain, which may include immigrating to Greenwood, so I like to think he is included in Tolkien's "they" but I guess we will never know for sure!
"The Road goes ever on..."
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Aug 25 2015, 1:30pm
Post #15 of 32
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By the way, if you want to "mix" the Appendix B version published by the author in the 1950s (revised for the second edition somewhat regarding Celeborn in the South of Greenwood), and this very late "Oropher text" to arrive at a conclusion...
... that's one thing. All I'm saying above is that A) I don't think you can employ the "draft version" rather than the version published by JRRT. And...
B) I also disagree that this late text from UT, in and of itself, does not necessarily certainly include Thranduil in my opinion, the way it's worded.
I'm not sure "Oropher" existed in the conception when Tolkien wrote Appendix B, but you could argue that mixing these two descriptions more strongly implies that Thranduil must have been among the "handful of Sindar" who escaped Doriath (since he too passed Eastward).
That said, the Appendix B description is arguably brief and a bit simplified in any case (this is not necessarily problematic, but just to note a couple of things here): it arguably implies that Thranduil established his "realm" at this time (before the building of the Dark Tower) -- but for example we learn later from Legolas that the Silvan Elves did not delve underground until much later, in the Third Age (only part of his realm in any event, I know)...
... and if you believe in the draft Oropher Tale (of which there are two conflicting versions), the scenario was obviously more complicated. If you believe in the "Oropher tale" Appendix B seems to leave out... Oropher! Even if he can be imaginatively wedged in.
For myself, I'm still not sure I "believe" in the (draft) Oropher tale... and if so, which one
(This post was edited by Elthir on Aug 25 2015, 1:43pm)
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Laineth
Lorien
Aug 25 2015, 5:03pm
Post #16 of 32
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that Appendix B must come first, and that it is brief and simplified:
Most of these dwelt in Lindon west of the Ered Luin; but before the building of the Barad-dűr many of the Sindar passed eastward, and some established realms in the forests far away, where their people were mostly Silvan Elves. Thranduil, king in the north of Greenwood the Great, was one of these. - Lord of the Rings, Appendix B
However, there is an "in world" explanation - the Tale of Years was not written until the Fourth Age. Thranduil would have been king for all of the Third Age, and living in the north. He was the important one, as he was around for TH and LotR.
More reason for this is what Legolas says: “It is long since any of my own folk journeyed hither back to the land whence we wandered in ages long ago,” and "The people of the woods did not delve in the ground like Dwarves, nor build strong places of stone before the Shadow came.”
These two lines fit in with the Oropher tale - that the Woodland Realm migrated north. Legolas's words should outweigh the Tale of Years, "in world".
Also, where is there another version of the Oropher tale? He is mentioned in Note 14 of the Gladden Fields (UT), but that does not contradict the Oropher tale, it just gives another reason for his moving north - the timeline is still the same, as well. The three (Sauron, Galadriel, dwarves) were close together.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Aug 25 2015, 10:08pm
Post #17 of 32
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... that brevity, coupled with Thranduil being known (both within world and to readers of the books) can explain how an Oropher tale might fit in.
These two lines fit in with the Oropher tale - that the Woodland Realm migrated north. Legolas's words should outweigh the Tale of Years, "in world".
I agree again. Perhaps I was unclear earlier: I meant that Legolas' words "prove" (illustrate) that Appendix B must be simplified with respect to its implication. It's not stated in detail in Appendix B that Thranduil established his realm (as in, the realm readers are aware of from The Hobbit) before the building of the Dark Tower, and so Legolas' words show that the matter is not so simple.
Also, where is there another version of the Oropher tale? He is mentioned in Note 14 of the Gladden Fields (UT), but that does not contradict the Oropher tale, it just gives another reason for his moving north - the timeline is still the same, as well. The three (Sauron, Galadriel, dwarves) were close together.
Waitaminnit the same "as well"?
The two reasons are wholly different, and there is no mention of one reason in the "other text" (so to speak), to indicate that Tolkien was certainly merging multiple reasons according to one conception. And I would say, in general the timeline is the same, but looking at the two accounts:
Appendix B, The Sindarin Princes Of The Silvan Elves, The History of Galadriel and Celeborn
It's said that Oropher's folk had migrated "from the south", having dwelt east of Anduin, neighbors of Lorien. What was that migration?
I read it as explained in the following description; that is, Tolkien first notes these Elves had migrated, then follows with the reasons and geography of the migration. It's described that in the Second Age Oropher had withdrawn northward beyond the Gladden Fields -- to get away from the Dwarves of Moria, also resenting the intrusions of Galadriel and Celeborn -- as yet however, there was intercourse between these Silvan groups until the War of the Last Alliance.
So as I read this version, Oropher only migrates once before he is slain at the Last Alliance, and again his reason to do this is due to the Dwarves, and Celeborn and Galadriel.
And in my opinion I think we should not go very much further northward than the Gladden Fields. Although obviously there are plenty of places simply north of the Gladden Fields, why choose this reference in particular? I think to illustrate that these Elves were still close enough to more easily keep in contact, the continued contact as noted in this account.
Disaster Of The Gladden Fields, note 14
Long before the Last Alliance, Oropher and his kin left Amon Lanc (across the river from Lorien), and it is said three times he moved Northward, and at the end of the Second Age he dwelt in the western glens of the Emyn Duir. Thus to my mind he moved three times before the Last Alliance, where his people lived and roamed in the woods and vales westward as far as Anduin, north of the Dwarf-road (the Forest Road).
As already mentioned, these movements are seemingly due to the rising power of Sauron, or its rumour. There is no reference to any migration simply northward of the Gladden Fields, and the Emyn Duir were hills said to be in the north-east of Greenwood.
According to the map by Pauline Baynes, in my opinion there seems to be plenty of room to be north of the Gladden Fields and still south of the Forest Road.
So I think we have: different reasons to move, different numbers of movements before the Last Alliance, and (in my opinion), at least the suggestion of a more northerly last movement before the Last Alliance.
_____
And just to note it for possible interest: in yet a different note published in Words, Phrases And Passages, entry yrch, Tolkien notes that Legolas' people were evidently immigrants who moved from that region (across the Anduin from Lorien) due to evil's influence, and that the migration "probably took place about Third Age 2000 (between 1980 and 2060)".
This is post-Lord of the Rings description, but yet earlier than the two texts from Unfinished Tales here. In this entry Tolkien is seemimgly thinking about the migration with a linguistic scenario in mind.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Aug 25 2015, 10:18pm)
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Laineth
Lorien
Aug 25 2015, 10:37pm
Post #18 of 32
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I had responded without reereading the actual quote - I should know better!
You're right, Note 14 does say, "westward as far as Anduin, north of the ancient Dwarf-Road". That would mean no one visited Lórien, since is was both farther west than the Anduin, and south.
I had never read that last one! Thank you for giving that!
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Laineth
Lorien
Aug 27 2015, 12:59am
Post #19 of 32
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we can say Thranduil almost certainly lived in Doriath. Legolas's words prove that LotR Appendix B is simplified, but it still states the Thranduil "was one of these". The draft explicitly states it. Leaving out the Oropher tale, it would be Thranduil leading that migration.
Regarding Oropher and Note 14, I got my copy out and re-read. It does not make any sense. By all accounts (as far as I'm aware) Sauron was at war with Eriador and destroyed it; and orcs were fighting the dwarves and men just north of the Greenwood. It makes no sense for them to migrate north - the southern half by Lórien would have been much safer. No battle or conflict ever came to that area during the Second Age (again, as far as I'm aware. Correct me if I'm wrong!). The only one mentioned is the death of Isildur, and that was a specific attack on him.
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Eldy
Tol Eressea
Aug 27 2015, 4:51am
Post #20 of 32
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Regarding Note 14, it's unclear exactly when Oropher relocated, but I'm inclined to interpret the passage as indicating a move before the War of the Elves and Sauron (c. 1700 SA). The note states that Oropher was bothered by "rumors of the rising power of Sauron", and there were far more than rumors after the War. The preponderant power in Wilderland at this time (mainly in the Vales of Anduin area) was the alliance of the Longbeard Dwarves and the ancestors of the Northmen, which would not be destroyed until the War of the Elves and Sauron, when Sauron launched a hugely destructive offensive in Wilderland at the same time as his invasion of Eriador (cf. "Of Dwarves and Men" in The Peoples of Middle-earth). But at the time Oropher (presumably) moved, the region was fairly stable and peaceful. I think that Oropher moving while Sauron's mustering is still a distant rumor is compatible with his stated desire to avoid the influence of Lorien; the maelstrom was far enough off that a proud but still more or less reasonable ruler wouldn't necessarily feel compelled to become a refugee in someone else's kingdom.
As for Thranduil, we don't even know when he was born. If we look only at sources which don't mention Oropher, then I agree that Thranduil was almost certainly born in the First Age and would have lived in Doriath. But if we roll with the assumption that Oropher existed and was the first king of the Silvan Elves of Greenwood (which most people seem prepared to do), then we can't say for sure if Thranduil was born before or after Oropher's assumption of kingship, since he's been bumped down a generation.
There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...
(This post was edited by Eldorion on Aug 27 2015, 4:59am)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Aug 27 2015, 12:07pm
Post #21 of 32
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almost certainly is possibe ;)
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(Still) we can say Thranduil almost certainly lived in Doriath. Legolas's words prove that LotR Appendix B is simplified, but it still states the Thranduil "was one of these". The draft explicitly states it. Leaving out the Oropher tale, it would be Thranduil leading that migration.
Okay, but why did Tolkien reword the passage, leaving the published version not explicit here? Possibly for brevity, and maybe the draft version still contains the correct, intended conception, especially before Oropher was ever imagined to exist.
But the draft you quoted also explicitly states (for example) that there were "Avari or East elves" in these woods. Tolkien, however, chose not to publish the term Avari here, and to leave it out also when he identified the West Elves as Eldar (Appendix F), compared to the East-elves.
Where the Avari left out for brevity, or was Tolkien still pondering what he should, or should not say (maybe having yet to make up his mind), about a given group or Elves...
... or about a character named Thranduil.
Even "almost certainly" contains "almost". Granted it reads stronger that "possibly" and if I were forced to choose I might put my mony on "yes", he was from Doriath...
... but still
(This post was edited by Elthir on Aug 27 2015, 12:11pm)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Aug 27 2015, 12:57pm
Post #22 of 32
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Where the Avari left out for brevity?
Yes where? Oh... um, 'were' I mean. Yikes!
Were did I learn to spell?
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Laineth
Lorien
Aug 27 2015, 5:23pm
Post #23 of 32
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note 14, it still doesn't make sense:
Long before the War of the Alliance, Oropher, King of the Silvan Elves east of Anduin, being disturbed by rumours of the rising power of Sauron, had left their ancient dwellings about Amon Lanc, across the river from their kin in Lórien. Three times he had moved northwards, and at the end of the Second Age he dwelt in the western glens of the Emyn Duir, and his numerous people lived and roamed in the woods and vales westward as far as Anduin, north of the ancient Dwarf-Road (Men-i-Naugrim).
I understand Oropher wanting to avoid Galadriel's influence in Lórien. The other version, in UT App B, makes sense - he moved north somewhat to get away.
But note 14 states that he moved three times, and that he was there after the war - otherwise "at the end of the Second Age" would be "by the beginning of the war of Elves and Sauron."
Again, war never came to the southern region. Why would he continue moving north, after there was war in the north?
Lórien's defenses weren't much better - Galadriel wasn't ruling with her Ring yet.
~*~
LotR should have the most weight. Since Legolas's words prove that LotR App B is simplified, Oropher can easily 'fit in'. But it explicitly states Thranduil "was one of these." Thranduil either lead the migration, or helped Oropher lead.
I like the history and context of relationships in UT App B. But it's not without contradiction - it says "He had not the arts nor wealth nor the aid of the Dwarves;"
Whereas LotR has Gimli say: “Do you think those halls are fair, where your King dwells under the hill in Mirkwood, and Dwarves helped in their making long ago?”
LotR has to have precedence.
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