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Dcole4
Rohan
Aug 12 2015, 10:46pm
Post #1 of 25
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Radagast - The Original Plan?
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While we all bite our finger nails waiting for something official for the EE, I wanted to go into something speculative and see what your thoughts were on the handling of Radagast in these films. The entirety of his scenes in AUJ and DOS were what were originally planned for the first of two films back in the day. The only additions were the post-High Fells sequence, something they shot in pick ups.
With the "cold" reception for the character you can tell that the filmmakers "phased" Radagast out and underplayed him in DOS and BOTFA. This is odd because PJ showed a huge amount of enthusiasm for the character beforehand in production diaries, saying that he would be a fan favorite of the films. And in the commentary for AUJ he expressed keenness for several of Radagast's humorous moments. What's obvious is they cut his appearances down in DOS onwards, to the point where he only has a couple lines in BOTFA. And gone is most of his quirk.
I can't imagine this was always the plan, which raises the question, what was Radagast's original role in the films. We know that extensive parts (if not all) of a subplot involving Beorn and Radagast in Dol Guldur were shot, but none of that has been seen and with only twenty minutes being added, I can't imagine we'll see this threadline. Also trimmed to near non-existence is the scene outside Rhosgobel in BOTFA where Gandalf is gifted Radagast's staff.
This is how his "later" scenes must have broken down In the original two-film structure...
- Gandalf and Radagast outside Dol Guldur / Gandalf captured around time of Barrel sequence. * (Since the High Fells were originally during the Thunder Battle in AUJ, what would the Gandalf/Radagast segue have been from the point Gandalf left Mirkwood to when they're both outside Dol Guldur? Was their originally another scene between there / more to the Dol Guldur entrance scene?)
-White Counsel rescue of Gandalf / Radagast saves Beorn / Around the time Smaug destroys Lake-Town in two film-structure
-Rhosgobel, Gandalf sends Radagast "after him (presumably Beorn) Was this the last scripted appearance of the character before he returns upon the eagles? Or was he due for a little more?
The biggest question, after such a lengthy introduction in AUJ, with several big sequences, are we to believe that he isn't going to get his official "goodbye"? They don't give him any kind of send off. I think its a little disheartening that, like the dwarves, Radagast was thrown aside hastily due to a knee-jerk reaction to the reception to AUJ. It's things like this that make me wonder how they would have expanded the story to three film had they blocked out what "critics were saying." The pumping up of the Elven characters, and the cut-down of the dwarves and of Radagast, feel like a direct response to what was presumed to be flaws of AUJ. I wish they had continued films two and three in the same vein and spirit as the first film. I honestly don't mind the elves, they serve their part, the issue is that they get luxuriated treatment while other characters (Radagast, Dwarves, Beorn) have been cleared cut down in screen time. If all had equal treatment/ screentime /attention, I don't think so many people would be outcrying so loudly about Legolas / Tauriel.
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Aug 12 2015, 11:20pm
Post #2 of 25
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completely agree about your tauriel legolas final statement
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The could have been super ok if they would had been in a secondary place behind beorn.
Beorn gives the hobbit trilogy a unique flavour. And so the dwarves. Not so the elves but in the book there are elves in laketown so its ok in a lesser screentime. Even in the botfa there were mirkwood elves aswell so its ok
Having the dwarves in a third place its a shame after all the effort putted in AUJ
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 12 2015, 11:46pm
Post #3 of 25
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I don't think I follow the logic ..
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That there must have been more scenes which were cut following AUJ's release. I don't see how we get there.
To make two more general points, firstly there can't be much question that plans for the two film version were never finalised. Those two films would have been "created" in the editing process - which was a pint they never reached.
Secondly, the general discussion of hierarchies and taxonomies, that character A deserved more time than character B and it's terribly unfair that character C didn't get more time than A is like nothing so much as parents discussing their children's roles in a primary school play. Quite, quite odd.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Aug 13 2015, 12:36am
Post #4 of 25
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Well I don't think so, here's why
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"With the "cold" reception for the character you can tell that the filmmakers "phased" Radagast out and underplayed him in DOS and BOTFA. This is odd because PJ showed a huge amount of enthusiasm for the character beforehand in production diaries, saying that he would be a fan favorite of the films. And in the commentary for AUJ he expressed keenness for several of Radagast's humorous moments. What's obvious is they cut his appearances down in DOS onwards, to the point where he only has a couple lines in BOTFA. And gone is most of his quirk."
Except we still have the bunny sled and bird poo. I think his part was cut down to make room for other characters: Legolas, Tauriel and Alfrid, who seems to be the same kind of alleged comic relief that Radagast was supposed to be.
"- Gandalf and Radagast outside Dol Guldur / Gandalf captured around time of Barrel sequence. * (Since the High Fells were originally during the Thunder Battle in AUJ, what would the Gandalf/Radagast segue have been from the point Gandalf left Mirkwood to when they're both outside Dol Guldur? Was their originally another scene between there / more to the Dol Guldur entrance scene?)"
That can't be right - Gandalf reappeared to save the Dwarves in the Goblin tunnels. He stayed behind to chat with Galadriel, and Thorin wouldn't wait for him like he was supposed to. No, I think that Gandalf leaving the Dwarves to go investigate the tombs was always the plan. And as far as the White Council rescuing Gandalf during Smaug's attack, clearly that didn't change. It might LOOK like it changed, since Smaug's attack was over before Gandalf was rescued, but both events happened at night. There's no reason to think it wasn't the same night.
Peter Jackson has a habit of filming lots of scenes, then changing his mind and deciding to re-write the scene and film something else. I think that the "Beorn tortured & rescued by Radagast" scene may have been filmed, but then PJ changed his mind about using it. Maybe he just couldn't find a way to fit it into the story. There's some talk of it finding its way into BOT5A, and I even wrote a post contemplating that it could be the reason for the "R" rating, but honestly don't see how it could fit into BOT5A. My personal thought is that, during the 2-film production they cut the scene because they were running out of time. It does seem that the first 1/2 of DOS is very rushed, but then the last 30 minutes or so have extra long fight scenes, culminating in the Dwarves v Smaug scenes that are less than stellar, IMO. That scene was made during pickups, when they'd decided on the 3 movie split, but by that time PJ had already changed the storyline & cut the "Beorn is tortured" scene. That's what I think happened.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 13 2015, 1:21am
Post #5 of 25
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And I suppose it's impossible to know - firstly - how much PJ & co. actually DO respond to critical comments re:
like the dwarves, Radagast was thrown aside hastily due to a knee-jerk reaction to the reception to AUJ
I had seen some stupid comments about the dwarves - "indistinguishable" was one comment I think - but then again, you have to look at WHICH critic and who they are writing for - any number of articles I've read seem to be just snark from some blogger, trying to be edgy and clever - it's as tho they don't even watch the movie at all, but just want to hear themselves talk.
So I don't know, overall, re AUJ's reception - the thing that sticks in my mind the most are the "slow" accusations, but since I love the film "shrug". So DOES PJ react?, and how much?, to critical comments? We know evidently it was fan protests that over-rode Arwen being at Helm's Deep? But then again, seems like there was some grousing over the casting of RA, and PJ stood up to that (thankfully). That's he's flat-out said that he was going to make the films his way - and certainly with Radagast there was some grousing at his quirky depiction - never mind the "hot dwarves " and Azog. How much do you listen to critics anyway, with a box office success?
To me - along with the dwarves and Beorn - Radagast's cuts just FEEL to me like the simple result of PJ - for whatever reason - wanted a "tight thriller pace" with the exception of some notable emotional moments (which IMO he is quite gifted at + amazing actors). So I can see certain emotional scenes do get whatever time is set aside, then there is all the action and/or narrative flow that PJ wanted to depict - and that IMO is where things begin to lose focus (elf/Alfrid overload). E.g., simple favoritism by the director/writers involved, and the side effect of that is the cutting to the absolute minimum things that PJ didn't consider critical - e.g., the passing of Radagast's staff to Gandalf, for instance. Do we REALLY need to see that? Well, no, we see Radagast talking to Gandalf with the staff, and Gandalf needs a horse, so next we see Gandalf with a horse and staff, so we can readily assume Radagast fitted Gandalf out with a horse, supplies, a staff.
I'm not saying that is the RIGHT thing to do , I'm just saying it's less critical that, say, having Bilbo inexplicably showing up in a mithril shirt. How Bilbo obtains that is critical.
As to the pumping up of the elves' part, with Tauriel re comments from Philippa and PJ both, IMO they just both seem enraptured by their creation. Re Legolas - well, I just think - even with OB fooling around taping in the Appendices, that PJ loves the character, and for he and Philippa both - since they have spoken about watching these films back to back, they were keen to feature him both as a beloved character of LOTR and a strong tie between the film series.
So I think this is true:
the elves, they serve their part, the issue is that they get luxuriated treatment while other characters (Radagast, Dwarves, Beorn) have been cleared cut down in screen time. If all had equal treatment/ screentime /attention, I don't think so many people would be outcrying so loudly about Legolas / Tauriel.
And also, although there are fans of these characters - perhaps because of the direction or comfortableness in the part - or lack of - FOR ME - it would be one thing if with such a large dose of Legolas and Tauriel, I had been treated to compelling performances. But IMO, OB seemed not comfortable through a lot - not all - of DOS and BOFA - and for me, EL also seemed less comfortable through BOFA in places (which I can hardly blame her for, given some of what she was asked to do ). Inexplicably actors like Sylvester McCoy who were perfect in their roles - BECAME their roles - were given less screen time.
Does familiarity breed contempt? Hard to say, because PJ didn't film in sequence. But - a guess - the dwarves had been on set for a while, as was SM and others, and then the elf actors begin arriving - were some of the decisions made simply because of a kind of newness? in dealing with these elves, and the earlier enthusiasms got changed with the new kinds of fights and so that could be choreographed, with the elves there? PJ certainly seems enthusiastic about Legolas' encounter with Bolg in Laketown - and unfortunately IMO also seemed to have retained an enthusiasm for the LOTR OTT Legolas stunts and decided to ratchet that kind of thing up - so I ask again what PJ may respond to. I don't know outside this board - does anyone, seriously, enjoy Legolas' OTT stuff? If not, how does PJ not know that the OTT stunts are not "wowing" folks, but irritating them, and if PJ has an inkling of that feeling from viewers, does he care? Should ANY director care, since they are the ones making the film?
He didn't change Radagast's bird doings on his face, and there was plenty of *despair* over that.
It's things like this that make me wonder how they would have expanded the story to three film had they blocked out what "critics were saying."
I dunno. RA once commented re AUJ's slowness something like folks would be glad, later, that everything was so carefully laid out, so I imagine he knew all the complexities and action to come - but. I can't think, with all the footage shot, that originally BOFA was going to have the pace that it does. However, it's disturbing to think (tho I don't think it's true of Alfrid) that PJ & co. knew well ahead of time, even with AUJ, how elf-dominated the Hobbit would be, and neither the cast nor the audience was given warning of that - otherwise I would have gone into these films with a different mind set, of course.
Even now, if PJ has given it thought - he has to know that a 20-minute EE after indicating 30 minutes or more wouldn't make a lot of fans happy. But again, he's doing things HIS way. So I don't know how PJ responds to critics, or critical fan response, really. To a degree I guess. Depending. If it is loud enough. Interestingly - what IS going on in the PJ camp, anyway? We know it was real quiet pre-BOFA and DOS, but we knew why - PJ & co. were WORKING. They are probably working now, but now it's just editing - I mean the shooting is done, and for months, there's been no comment, no news - not even a little photo!
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squiggle
Rivendell
Aug 13 2015, 2:05am
Post #6 of 25
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I've definitely liked the Legolas style fighting stuff
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I find it entertaining, and it allows me to take the Legolas character more seriously in LoTRs.
Legolas fighting, as is alot of fighting in these middle earth films, is like a musical interlude in a play between scenes. Different rules suddently come into play in the world. Elements of characters can be amplified, which could not otherwise, narratively, without it pulling apart the fabric. I liked generally the more hyper Ninja style of the Woodland/forest Elves generally in this way also, & thought Tauriel was cool stylistically to that too.
(This post was edited by squiggle on Aug 13 2015, 2:06am)
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Aug 13 2015, 6:34am
Post #7 of 25
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"- Gandalf and Radagast outside Dol Guldur / Gandalf captured around time of Barrel sequence. * (Since the High Fells were originally during the Thunder Battle in AUJ, what would the Gandalf/Radagast segue have been from the point Gandalf left Mirkwood to when they're both outside Dol Guldur? Was their originally another scene between there / more to the Dol Guldur entrance scene?)"
That can't be right - Gandalf reappeared to save the Dwarves in the Goblin tunnels. He stayed behind to chat with Galadriel, and Thorin wouldn't wait for him like he was supposed to. No, I think that Gandalf leaving the Dwarves to go investigate the tombs was always the plan.
It is stated explicitly in the first Weta Chrinicles that the High Fells sequence was originally planned to be part of AUJ, and takes place during the first part of the Dwarves journey over the Misty Mountains. Geographically it would have made much more sense, as well, for Gandalf to investigate whilst still on the same side of the mountain range.
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Aug 13 2015, 8:23am
Post #8 of 25
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I echo your sentiments, especially this:
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With the "cold" reception for the character you can tell that the filmmakers "phased" Radagast out and underplayed him in DOS and BOTFA. This is odd because PJ showed a huge amount of enthusiasm for the character beforehand in production diaries, saying that he would be a fan favorite of the films. And in the commentary for AUJ he expressed keenness for several of Radagast's humorous moments. What's obvious is they cut his appearances down in DOS onwards, to the point where he only has a couple lines in BOTFA. And gone is most of his quirk.
…with several big sequences [in AUJ], are we to believe that he isn't going to get his official "goodbye"? They don't give him any kind of send off. I think its a little disheartening that, like the dwarves, Radagast was thrown aside hastily due to a knee-jerk reaction to the reception to AUJ. It's things like this that make me wonder how they would have expanded the story to three film had they blocked out what "critics were saying." The pumping up of the Elven characters, and the cut-down of the dwarves and of Radagast, feel like a direct response to what was presumed to be flaws of AUJ. I wish they had continued films two and three in the same vein and spirit as the first film. I honestly don't mind the elves, they serve their part, the issue is that they get luxuriated treatment while other characters (Radagast, Dwarves, Beorn) have been cleared cut down in screen time.
…though I think that of the Elves, Thranduil certainly doesn't get 'luxuriated treatment', but that unfortunately Tauriel and Legolas do. IMHO.
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Aug 13 2015, 8:31am
Post #9 of 25
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Thranduil has it right, the concrete amount of time needed, even what is beyond the book, he is interesting and you dont get anoyed by him
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 13 2015, 8:35am
Post #10 of 25
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I'm not convinced that Radagast's role was changed...
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...in response to external criticism. Serious criticism of AUJ focussed on the pacing and the increased frame rate - I don't recall any being directed at him.
Seems more likely to me he was another storyline they explored and ultimately couldn't realise. I'd say it's not so much that he was underplayed as that they couldn't find anything more to do with him. They'd made him a sort of spokesman of the natural world, so he was there to highlight the corruption of the Greenwood and he was there to bring the forces of the natural world - Beorn and the eagles - into the battle. But beyond that, what could he have done? There was nothing for him to do in DoS. I suspect the Beorn in Dol Guldur idea foundered because they couldn't find a way to fit it in. That happens when you write books too - sometimes you have to let things go, even when you really like them, because there is nowhere you can fit them in without them feeling like an interruption.
It's possible that they'll show him giving Gandalf his staff - that would only take a couple of seconds. He might show up at the end of the battle. But I doubt very much if there ever was a developed role across two or three films that was cut in response to criticism - just ideas which in the end didn't gel.
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adt100
Rohan
Aug 13 2015, 4:12pm
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I'd agree with that... what was there for him to do in later films?
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As far as I'm concerned we sometimes expect too much that every character must have a full 'character arc' and a neat resolution. This isn't always possible or desireable and certainly not in the books. Sometimes it's nice just to have quirky, different characters make and appareance to show depth to a world. I agree he could/should have had a little more of a role in BOFA and I expect a little more of him in the EE, though maybe only a short scene.
The same goes for Beorn. They could legitimately have done away with him completely, as they did in the animated feature. But understandably PJ wanted to bring him into the films. The situation reminds me of Tom Bombabil in LOTR. He has no purpose, but is an interesting addition to the world.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Aug 13 2015, 9:48pm
Post #12 of 25
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when Gandalf had that vision before Mirkwood from Galadriel telling him to go to the High Fells. Sometimes the original plan never gets filmed.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Aug 13 2015, 9:55pm
Post #13 of 25
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When Galagriel is telling Gandalf was shot during pockups.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 13 2015, 11:34pm
Post #14 of 25
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Although the films are the films now - but just sayin' IMO Radagast could have been left out completely, vs. Beorn - I mean for me, re the book, Beorn was a source of fascination and to me now, he is still a symbol of the mystery of Middle Earth and in the films, of crossing into the wild.
As well, I always thought that the image of Beorn finding the mortally wounded Thorin to be moving - before the films I remember fretting to myself as to how they would make that work, and work well. And I seem to remember PJ talking about Beorn being a game-changer in the battle. So IMO Beorn had several purposes - but ah, well - it is what it is. Just for me, one of those baffling things, when IMO you have a remarkable character like this to work with - beauty, power, savagery, and compassion and kindness as well who DOES turn the tide of the battle.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Aug 13 2015, 11:42pm
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For me Beorn is a key, iconic part of the story. I've always loved the character. That he was thrust aside, yet the non-Tolkien elements of the story, such as Legolas, Tauriel and Alfrid (all of which the films could have done without) were given so much emphasis, is inexplicable to me. He could have been such a fantastic major character in the films – one that fitted in really well with the flavour of the story as established in AUJ. (I liked the way the film-makers depicted him, but thought he had far too little coverage, especially in the third film.)
Thank you for the lovely images.
Although the films are the films now - but just sayin' IMO Radagast could have been left out completely, vs. Beorn - I mean for me, re the book, Beorn was a source of fascination and to me now, he is still a symbol of the mystery of Middle Earth and in the films, of crossing into the wild. As well, I always thought that the image of Beorn finding the mortally wounded Thorin to be moving - before the films I remember fretting to myself as to how they would make that work, and work well. And I seem to remember PJ talking about Beorn being a game-changer in the battle. So IMO Beorn had several purposes - but ah, well - it is what it is. Just for me, one of those baffling things, when IMO you have a remarkable character like this to work with - beauty, power, savagery, and compassion and kindness as well who DOES turn the tide of the battle.
(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Aug 13 2015, 11:43pm)
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Dcole4
Rohan
Aug 13 2015, 11:55pm
Post #16 of 25
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Does anyone know more about the first image? It was released on the first scroll, and while the scenes in all the scrolls have played out slightly differently, they have more or less been on target. I wonder if this existed as a scene? It's a live action Gandalf they've photo-shopped from, which suggests they drew from some kind of existing footage/frame.
Some people have suggested that the chase into Beorn's cabin in DOS, where the dwarves are being pursued by orcs and Beorn, was originally meant to be just Beorn when the films existed as two-parts. Perhaps this sequence was originally longer and more Beorn centric, with a moment that included something as pictured at the top. The switch to the beginning of DOS meant they had to strongly re-introduced Azog and the orc pack.
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Thrain II
Lorien
Aug 14 2015, 12:20am
Post #17 of 25
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with Avandel and Glorfindela. Beorn is the best part of The Hobbit book for me.
I was really looking forward to seeing him in the movie. The 2 by 2 introductions is the best scene from DOS EE for me.
Unfortunately, first his physical appearance disappointed me, and then his almost complete removal from the TE movies really made DOS and BOFA that much worse to me.
Ever since The Hobbit was greenlit I couldn't wait to see my favorite scene from the book, the moment Beorn rushes into battle and changes it's tide. The moment when he crushes Bolg and carries Thorin out of the battle.
Well we all know what we got instead of that. 
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Goldeneye
Lorien
Aug 14 2015, 1:55pm
Post #18 of 25
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Is that you, Philippa?
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Imladris18
Lorien
Aug 14 2015, 3:20pm
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But you won't find much love for them around here. Some folks will take every opportunity to blame them for all that's wrong with the Hobbit, even though in reality they do not occupy much screen time at all. Yeah, the love story and bat riding can go die in a fire, but the Legolas/Tauriel conventional fighting is fantastic, and I wish we would've gotten more of that instead.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 14 2015, 3:33pm
Post #20 of 25
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One of the things that really pleased me in the original films....
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... was that they had made Legolas look as if he could fight his own battles. They created a style and a grace for him which was elf rather than human but he was a credible fighter. Before that I think there was a tendency to make him and the elves rather bloodless and frail-sounding. And as far as I'm concerned, Legolas in The Hobbit is the same character at a different time in his life. I ignore the fact that the actor's older because that's something they could hardly help.
I didn't mind the bat ride either. I think the first part, when he is simply using the bat to get him where he needs to be, is a great visual. It's only when he turns upside down to use his bow that bothers me because I can't see any way he could have done that. If they wanted to include it I think they should have shown how he changed position and what he was clinging on with - otherwise I think the idea seems OK and in keeping with film-Legolas.
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Dipling
Lorien
Aug 14 2015, 3:43pm
Post #21 of 25
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The Legolas shot didn't bother me. But if i think about it...PJ always asks questions, if something can be done for real. As are Smaug wings big enough to let him fly, does gold move like water and so on.
But he let Legolas change the position and shoot arrows. He should let us see that stunt. Or use something else. Or there wasn't enough time for something better.
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Imladris18
Lorien
Aug 14 2015, 3:49pm
Post #22 of 25
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Great point, I think that is a large reason why I like the character.
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I don't hate the bat ride, but it wouldn't cause me any heartburn if it got removed for the EE and replaced with him fighting his way up to Thorin, or even staying and defending Dale (Orcrist would have to get back to Thorin still somehow though).
The fact that he is upside down and nothing falls out of his quiver/sheaths bothers me, too. He must have some strong rare (Middle-)earth magnets holding his gear in or something
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 14 2015, 8:44pm
Post #23 of 25
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But if i think about it...PJ always asks questions, if something can be done for real.
If he does then he promptly forgets as often as not. Else we wouldn't have characters bouncing around Middle-earth as though they had access to the USS Enterprise's transporters. And Dwarves falling some good distance on a scaffold might suffer greater injury than just getting a bit squashed. To say nothing of the practicality of a ballista jury-rigged from a beam and a broken longbow. Feel free to add your own example.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 14 2015, 8:47pm)
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Dipling
Lorien
Aug 14 2015, 9:23pm
Post #24 of 25
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You can see it on AUJ EE and DOS EE documentaries.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 14 2015, 11:56pm
Post #25 of 25
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We may be discussing two different things.
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Peter Jackson likes to be able to do practical stunts and I wonder if that is what you mean. In regards to whether a stunt is grounded in what would be believable in reality, Jackson can be wildly inconsistent--as I pointed out above.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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I would ask tho -
[