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Nuradar
Rohan
Aug 12 2015, 2:24pm
Post #2 of 24
(2552 views)
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Martin's criticism is pointless, I think.
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The reason Tolkien didn't put in specifics about how Aragorn ruled and about what happened to the remaining orcs, is because it would have seemed petty and insignificant compared to the events of the entire series of books.
However, everyone has their own opinion, and Martin is free to write his own story as he sees fit.
I would like to point out, however, that I've NEVER heard anyone criticize Tolkien for not expanding on Middle Earth tax policies under Aragorn's rule. And I HAVE heard plenty of grumblings on Martin's slow pace because he decides to write specifically about these things, which slows the plot to a crawl. My own brother stopped reading them after book 3 because he couldn't tolerate the endless, and seemingly meaningless, wanderings of Daenerys Targaryen.
To each his own, but I'm just saying.....artists shouldn't be publicly critical of other artists.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 12 2015, 3:27pm
Post #3 of 24
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I think Martin's the one who has failed here....
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...failed to understand what Tolkien's writing was all about.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 12 2015, 4:13pm
Post #4 of 24
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I would like to point out, however, that I've NEVER heard anyone criticize Tolkien for not expanding on Middle Earth tax policies under Aragorn's rule.
I imagine that Tolkien, in an academic environment, well understood outside of those students specializing in economics and finance, that discussing tax policies in an epic, world-building literary work would most certainly derail the narrative flow and tone
- I can't imagine Aragorn, as he pronounces justice on Faramir for instance, reminding Faramir that he had to implement sound regional fiscal planning.
And needless to say, with LOTR and the Hobbit we have completed works with a complete story arc, as well as a volume of other material from Tolkien, vast in its scope. Whereas - well, finish the books, George. I don't care about tax policies, but I do care about whether Tyrion has a happy ending....
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Darkstone
Immortal
Aug 12 2015, 4:59pm
Post #5 of 24
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Actually it shows precisely how much Tolkien succeeded.
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...while many like you demand maps, others wish for geological indications rather than places; many want Elvish grammars, phonologies, and specimens; some want metrics and prosodies — not only of the brief Elvish specimens, but of the 'translated' verses in less familiar modes, such as those written in the strictest form of Anglo-Saxon alliterative verse (e.g. the fragment at the end of the Battle of the Pelennor, V vi 124). Musicians want tunes, and musical notation; archaeologists want ceramics and metallurgy. Botanists want a more accurate description of the mallorn, of elanor, niphredil, alfirin, mallos, and symbelmynë; and historians want more details about the social and political structure of Gondor; general enquirers want information about the Wainriders, the Harad, Dwarvish origins, the Dead Men, the Beornings, and the missing two wizards (out of five).
-Letter #187
The fact that we all (even Mr. Martin) are hungry to know more about everything to do with Middle-earth aptly demonsrates exactly how wildly successful Tolkien was in creating a vibrant and believable secondary world.
******************************************
Mathom House Bestsellers:
All I Really Need to Know I Learned in the Pits of Orthanc
Zen and the Art of Cockle Boat Maintenance
Fifty Shades of Gandalf the Grey
Coney Stew for the Soul
Rhosgobel Rabbits - Unsafe At Any Speed
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Aug 12 2015, 5:01pm)
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NottaSackville
Valinor
Aug 12 2015, 8:03pm
Post #7 of 24
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Let's not be too hasty to hold up Tolkien as an example of a finisher for Martin
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While Tolkien DID finish some of his books, his books were far shorter and I'm pretty sure his book per year output was well below Martin's, or at least not much better (and that's not even counting the 20+ years of not-finishing-the-Silmarillion - or however long you want to assign to that book). And then of course there's all the work that Tolkien never did get around to publishing, and the published work he continued revising, and ...
The good professor was many admirable things, but a FINISHER he was not.
That being said, 1) I agree that Tolkien got it right in the political policy detail area, 2) Martin really needs to finish those *#($&*# books.
Notta
 Happiness: money matters, but less than we think and not in the way that we think. Family is important and so are friends, while envy is toxic -- and so is excessive thinking. Beaches are optional. Trust is not. Neither is gratitude. - The Geography of Bliss by Eric Weiner as summarized by Lily Fairbairn. And a bit of the Hobbit reading thrown in never hurts. - NottaSackville
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Meneldor
Valinor
Aug 13 2015, 1:51am
Post #9 of 24
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I would be thrilled to fail like the professor.
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Heck, I'd've been thrilled to be failed by the professor!
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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Eruwestial37
Rohan
Aug 13 2015, 4:02am
Post #10 of 24
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finish the books, George. I don't care about tax policies, but I do care about whether Tyrion has a happy ending.... THIS!
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Amandaliel
Registered User
Aug 13 2015, 11:30am
Post #13 of 24
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Martin is shouldn't have said "failed"
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It's not like there is a set standard in how yo should write. He(martin) prefers explaining every single bits and pieces in the book whereas Tolkien didn't. I don't see how that's a failed work.
and like Avandel said Finish the books please XD
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Elanor of Rohan
Lorien
Aug 13 2015, 9:28pm
Post #14 of 24
(2275 views)
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at least Winds of Winter!
He keeps on expanding the story of Westeros before these events, when millions of fans are waiting for this book...
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Nomad
Forum Admin
Aug 14 2015, 2:50pm
Post #15 of 24
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After he has sold 150 million books he can discuss what he feels are Tolkien's failures. //
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Aug 14 2015, 7:24pm
Post #16 of 24
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most of us haven't sold any books and we discuss LOTR'S perceived failures frequently.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Nomad
Forum Admin
Aug 14 2015, 7:28pm
Post #17 of 24
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Personally I wouldn't change a word. So count me out of your majority :-P //
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Aug 14 2015, 8:22pm
Post #18 of 24
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I've never considered you to be one of the herd, you unique robotic butterfly you.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 14 2015, 8:23pm
Post #19 of 24
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Failure is too strong of a word.
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The tax policies of Gondor and the Reunited Realm was a bit beyond the scope of the story that Tolkien was writing (or interested in writing). Martin, as a professional writer and editor, should know better than most that there is more than one approach to writing and that no one approach is best for all.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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phij2
Rivendell
Aug 15 2015, 8:17am
Post #20 of 24
(2076 views)
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I think Mr Martin should absolutely not be critisizing Tolkien in this way in public. I mean, if he just said he doesn't like the books, well then, we could all agree to disagree with him but leave it there. But to publicly say that Tolkien wrote his book the wrong way is innapropriate. You simply cant just go around telling people that books weren't written correctly or that one emthod is better than the other, thats just blatantly ignoring the core principles of fiction and fantasy writing - creativity and imagination. There is no right way to do it!!
Anyway, rant over. But seriously George, not cool. Don't ruin my opinion of you please!
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 15 2015, 11:32am
Post #21 of 24
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It isn't even that he doesn't like Tolkien.
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George R.R. Martin does like The Lord of the Rings. But Tolkien's style of writing is not Martin's.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Amandaliel
Registered User
Aug 17 2015, 3:43pm
Post #22 of 24
(1883 views)
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I also no betrayals as well
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